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Thread: MoP Loot

  1. #1
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    MoP Loot

    I don't know if I like the new loot system for lfr - seems like the QQ'ers won; but it's lfr so who cares.

    The farming tokens for normal, heroic (and lfr) seems like a reasonable compromise for the loot never drops issue. I'm sure it will get refined, but as long as the tokens are not super grindy, then it seems okay.

  2. #2
    What specifically don't you like, it sounds like it fixes the problems that currently exist, a couple big ones I can think of:

    - You can get at most one item per boss.
    - Whether you are in a group or solo you have the same odds of winning and item.

  3. #3
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    Except for not detecting spec, I don't think the current lfr loot system has problems. I think there was a vocal minority of non-raider types who could not deal with losing a roll and having to wait a week to come back and try again. The whole, they really don't need an upgrade, or they're not rolling main spec or they're just vendoring, or they're trading, or de'ing was a lot of whining.

    That's just going to be replaced with QQ over, I never get loot to drop for me, I always get some consolation prize. I just hope the keep the loot so you can trade it.

    And you're odds of winning a 1 -100 roll never change; they're always the same. The idea that we'll odds are increased if people run with friends is built on the false premise that if the friend wasn't there, there would be one less person rolling. In reality that friend spot would be replaced with some random person who was rolling also.

    Just seems like they gave in to the lfr heroes QQ.

  4. #4
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    That's not how it works. Your odds of winning a 1-100 roll changes completely depending solely on how many other people are involved in the roll, all the way from 100% (no one else rolls) to 50% (1 other person rolls) to much less (33% if there are 3, 25% if there are 4, 20% if there are 5... etc.)

    Whoever else rolls depends entirely on group composition. For instance, if one tank is a Warrior and the other is a Druid, any tank plate that drops is the warrior's, period (since the tank has the spec bonus to his roll). The Druid has to fight with Rogues and other Feral Druids for his gear, though.

    If you run with friends, and they roll or pass to favor you, then your odds of getting gear is increased over the situation where someone else rolls to favor themselves. This is not a false premise in any way? I don't understand your argument.
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  5. #5
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    I think LFR will still be a lootpinata with the new system but it will remove some of the frustration. Wonder if loot is still tradable specially tokens.

  6. #6
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    I diont think this is giving in to QQ as much as it is just implementing a better system. Mass rolls in a raidleaderless scenario are subject to manipulation and Blizzard can't trust the player base to play fair any more than they can get the rest of the player base to not complain about it. Overall I think the new system works as intended more than the old one did.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad View Post
    I think LFR will still be a lootpinata with the new system but it will remove some of the frustration. Wonder if loot is still tradable specially tokens.
    To me it doesn't really remove the inherent problems with "RNG-ness" of loot, it just makes it so you can't blame other people now, it's your own damn crappy luck if you can't get the items.
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  8. #8
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    Sounded like they were considering what to do about tier tokens...let me see if I can find the quote...it was one of the bullet points on Wowheadnews' summary post:

    Monks will not share tier on Vanquisher tokens. In fact, the tier system may be completely revamped still.
    Hopefully they'll just make it "tier shoulders" instead of "warrior, shaman and hunter tier shoulders"...it's retarded that our paladin has 3 410 chests, our priest has two and our warlock has one when three of us on the prot token have seen one all tier.

  9. #9
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    What's unclear about "The idea that we'll odds are increased if people run with friends is built on the false premise that if the friend wasn't there, there would be one less person rolling. In reality that friend spot would be replaced with some random person who was rolling also".

    There's no guarantee that the friends spot would not be filled with another person rolling. Your odds don't change because the friend is gone, he's just replaced with another random person rolling against you.

    In any event, the system remains the same at its core, it's just that as some pointed out you can blame the system now, not the individual player. However, consider this, you run lfr on a toon that doesn't need any gear, and you win a piece off the boss through the new system, and assume further it's tradable, you don't think that players will soon complain that the greedy player who won the roll isn't trading the piece away to the needy player. Or that people would complain that there are players in lfr who don't need loot but are getting awarded loot.

    The next out cry will be for lfr to detect if a player really, really needs a piece of gear off the boss, and if he doesn't based on ilvl then he doesn't get a roll e.g. I have the 397 valor bracers, but the 384 Gearbreak ones with a ton of mastery drop, the cries of unfair will be heard if I win the random loot award and get them and keep them.


    Unless, of course, the winners are not broadcast - which, if this is like the goodie bag from lfd, is not going to happen if you open your bag in raid.
    It will really change nothing.
    Last edited by Theotherone; 03-19-2012 at 10:49 AM.

  10. #10
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    except you double your chances. Look here, some math:

    Let's say there are 10 people rolling for your token. We'll do best case scenario where if you weren't there, no one else would be rolling. So without the friend you have a 1/10 shot of winning, or 10%. Now let's say you add a friend, so now there's 1 more person rolling, but also another chance of winning, so now it's a 2/11 shot of winning, or roughly an 18.2% chance of winning. Your odds went up by almost double, 18.2%. And if the person that replaced your friend was on your same token, then you'd have a 1/11 chance or a 9.1% chance of winning.

    18.2% >> 10% > 9.1%. Bringing a friend is always a benefit to your odds, significantly, and many guilds end up bringing 6 or more friends. Taelas is right on that math.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    except you double your chances. Look here, some math:

    Let's say there are 10 people rolling for your token. We'll do best case scenario where if you weren't there, no one else would be rolling. So without the friend you have a 1/10 shot of winning, or 10%. Now let's say you add a friend, so now there's 1 more person rolling, but also another chance of winning, so now it's a 2/11 shot of winning, or roughly an 18.2% chance of winning. Your odds went up by almost double, 18.2%. And if the person that replaced your friend was on your same token, then you'd have a 1/11 chance or a 9.1% chance of winning.

    18.2% >> 10% > 9.1%. Bringing a friend is always a benefit to your odds, significantly, and many guilds end up bringing 6 or more friends. Taelas is right on that math.
    Yes, but it's not a detriment to the person you're rolling against - we'll call him/her the complainer. Maybe I phrased it from the wrong side of the coin - yes benefit to you, but not a detriment to the player your rolling against (and there's a caveat to this). If the complainer is rolling against my friend and me he's got a 33% chance to win - if my friend isn't there, then chances are that a random person has taken my friends place and there are still 3 people rolling - my chances to win have gone down, but the player complainers chances have remained the same - friend or no friend.

    Whether it's my friend or a random person taking his place, the complainers odds have not changed. Now if the friend is replaced by a non-roller, then,yes, we've gone from 33% to 50%.

    Or am I missing something?

    I think I just kind of phrased it wrong.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post

    Whether it's my friend or a random person taking his place, the complainers odds have not changed. Now if the friend is replaced by a non-roller, then,yes, we've gone from 33% to 50%.

    Or am I missing something?

    I think I just kind of phrased it wrong.
    Well that's the complainer's real problem, because especially when guilds queue up and stack groups, it's not just 1 person you're guaranteed adding to the roll, it's several. So let's say the tank wants the shield to drop, and there would just be him, the one other tank, and a handful of DPS, then a guild joins with 3 more warriors and a few pallies. Now his odds have dropped from 50% down to like 10%. I agree that JUST BECAUSE a guild group queues up doesn't mean "the complainer's" odds are any different, but it does guarantee that IF a guild group queues up they are. Especially because it feels like the complainer is at an unfair advantage. Even if his odds were at 33%, the other person's odds are at 66% instead of 2 other people both at 33%. It looks unfair, and that's their problem: people that don't really need gear rolling on it.
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  13. #13
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    I agree.

    If the loot is tradable, then the token farming and class stacking will be amazing. Can't wait.

  14. #14
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    Wonder how much consideration has been put into this so far.

    LFR in its first inception...

    You queue a single person with 24 other people who have already run LFR and are saved to loot. This means the one person remaining is the only person eligible for loot so all loot would go to them. However, in the current model it is possible for this loot to be worthless (i.e. a Hunter winning plate gear). While you have the opportunity to win up to four items from a single boss, you aren't guaranteed that any of them are usable.

    In the next generation LFR system...

    If a boss drops say four items, then you queue with 21 people who are saved to loot and 4 people who are not. Each of these four people would win one item from every boss. However, unlike the current form of LFR loot, this item is guaranteed to be usable by them. Additionally, if it uses primary and secondary specs in determining this, you can simply change your secondary spec to match your primary spec in order to insure that the items you get are for your primary spec.



    I would think the fact that you can guarantee the item you win is usable by you, this would actually result in significantly faster gearing up of those raiding groups dedicated enough to pursue this. Especially at the start of the expansion where there isn't the prior tier's Heroic Gear that likely outgears the new tier's LFR.
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  15. #15
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    Would they get banned like they did for trading though like they did when LFR first came out? I mean... or would you still get to roll if you were locked out, you'd just always get gold instead of loot? Would that make people run LFR more? Is this a good thing?
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  16. #16
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    In the end all this does is remove the random chance that a boss will drop an item you need. So now instead of rolling on an item that you needed against a handful of people, you will always be rolling against the whole raid. Your chance of getting an item go down but your chance of getting to roll on an item become 100%.

    I am curious how they will work this with bosses that have multiple drops you need.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takethecake View Post
    In the end all this does is remove the random chance that a boss will drop an item you need. So now instead of rolling on an item that you needed against a handful of people, you will always be rolling against the whole raid. Your chance of getting an item go down but your chance of getting to roll on an item become 100%.

    I am curious how they will work this with bosses that have multiple drops you need.
    You know, I never looked at it from that specific angle, I was just looking at it as "well now you're rolling against the whole raid." I actually do like that, it might be something 10 man guilds want to implement eventually, it would help them... Well... sort of. Because if you don't win the roll you still don't get loot, some people could just get gold and you end up getting "nothing useful" from a boss... I shall ponder this further.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takethecake View Post
    In the end all this does is remove the random chance that a boss will drop an item you need. So now instead of rolling on an item that you needed against a handful of people, you will always be rolling against the whole raid. Your chance of getting an item go down but your chance of getting to roll on an item become 100%.

    I am curious how they will work this with bosses that have multiple drops you need.
    It'll likely be a two roll system. First roll to determine which players in the raid won loot. Second roll to determine which one item on the loot table (usable by one of their specs) will be given to them. You'd only be allowed to win one item. In addition to that I would suspect they will have a lot of more universal items like they did in the current Dragon Soul with the trinkets that can drop on the first several bosses. That way for more restrictive specs, such as Holy Paladin, there will be at least one item on any boss usable by them.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Would they get banned like they did for trading though like they did when LFR first came out? I mean... or would you still get to roll if you were locked out, you'd just always get gold instead of loot? Would that make people run LFR more? Is this a good thing?
    That has been fixed. The items in the current version of LFR can be traded, but those people that were ineligible for the loot can't have it traded to them. I imagine the new LFR may allow for trading (so class and spec stacking may work) yet but still would not allow you to trade to someone who has previously killed that boss.

    The bans were cause people got loot from a boss they had previously killed. Item trading is fine. Using item trading to circumvent the roll lockout was not.
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  20. #20
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    I hope it's tradable, that might smooth things out and limit the amount of vendor trash things become; you can bargain in raid and not be given crap; unless of course you do a roll on a boss that you need no gear off of - the people will give you crap for rolling in the first place.

    This may limit the QQ on the Forums, but that's just until people figure out that while you're not per se rolling against anyone, you are "rolling" and causing them to have to roll against you for the potential drop. And we're back to the increasing the odds, by eliminating rolls.

    I think the only way it works to keep everyone's mouth shut is for the system to do a pure background roll, and tell you you won. Then again people would just crap on geared players for being in the raid to begin with - on the altuistic canard of "you're taking the place of a person who could really use gear off this boss."

    There's really no good answer to this, the "problem" of guild stacking may, or may not go away, but it's "wack a mole" and other issue will crop up.

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