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Thread: MoP Press Tour -- Interview with Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street

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    MoP Press Tour -- Interview with Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street

    Last week, at the MoP press tour, we got the opportunity to interview Greg Street, otherwise known as Ghostcrawler, World of Warcraft's Lead Systems Designer. In this interview, we asked him about the upcoming tanking changes, some changes to the Monk class since Blizzcon, the updated Glyph system, Legendaries, and more!



    Read on after the break for the full interview transcription, plus some questions not included in the video!

    -------------

    TankSpot: I think I asked you about this last time I interviewed you several months ago, about tanking changes that are coming up. There’s been a whole lot of talk about reworking the tanking rotation to be more focused on the defensive. Are there any sort of updates along those lines?

    Greg Street: Yeah, you can kind of figure it out from the last talent calculator that we released, but to talk about the Protection Paladin specifically, there’s Shield of the Righteous and Word of Glory, which are both off the global cooldown, and a lot of ways to generate Holy Power, so Judgement generates Holy Power now, and they can use the Holy Power to heal themselves if that’s the most appropriate thing, or if they want to improve their block, they do Shield of the Righteous instead. So, almost all the Holy Power will be used for survivability for Protection, because there aren’t a lot of damage abilities they have that consume Holy Power. So all the generation should be targeted towards survivability that way.

    TS: There was a blogpost you did recently where you were talking about stat changes, and in terms of block capping and mastery, and all that stuff that’s going on like block moving to a two-roll system. Are we going to see more things in the tanking rotation that have to hit? Like, should tanks be looking to get expertise and hit back on their gear again?

    GS: Yeah, in fact that was part of the point of moving towards a more active role in self-defense. Previously, tanks would say “You know what, threat is not an issue for me, I don’t care if I hit or not, I just want to be able to hit my cooldowns.” But, using Protection as an example again, you want Holy Power, but you need to hit to get the Holy Power. So we’re hoping that hit and expertise become more attractive stats to tanks, which then lets us put them onto gear, so that the gear doesn’t always look like “Stamina plus Dodge or Parry” and then we can do some more things with that. We changed it to make it a little easier hit those caps, and we talked about it in the blog that we put up, so that it shouldn’t be totally unreasonable to try to get there.

    TS: So it should be possible through like spells and abilities to still hit the block cap?

    GS: No, I’m sorry, to be able to get hit and expertise capped. The block cap will be almost impossible to hit unless like you have two mastery trinkets and they both go off at the same time or something like that.

    TS: So I was playing the Monk a little bit, and I noticed a couple things that were different from Blizzcon. There’s no more dark Chi.

    <some debate about how to actually pronounce “Chi”>

    TS: So there’s no more dark Chi...


    GS: Dark balls.

    TS: There’s no more dark balls, yeah. What prompted that sort of change?

    GS: It was a couple of things. Originally, the way we designed the Monk was they had a fairly involved resource system and very simple abilities, and as we got deeper into design we were having a lot of fun kind of going crazy with the abilities. So the Monk doesn’t have many, like, “hits for 10% weapon damage and that’s it.” Almost all of them do something else crazy. Even their basic attacks, there’s one that does more damage above 50% health and one that does more damage below 50% health of the targets, so even that basic attack they want to switch around, and when you start to look at some of the tanking and healing abilities they can be quite involved.

    So we thought, philosophically, maybe it’s more fun to have all of the depth and interest and complexity be in the abilities, and not in the resource system. As we were playtesting and we were trying out the Monk, players were often telling us, “I don’t understand. Am I supposed to build up light and dark? And am I supposed to have abilities that cost light force and dark force?” And we felt like we were making the system complex just for the sake of having something different. With the Death Knight, we iterated a lot on the resource system before we found something we were really happy with, and even today players want parts of it improved and changed and stuff like that.

    So we went back to a system we understood pretty well, which is they have energy -- and the reason we like energy is otherwise the attacks have to be on a cooldown, but with energy they can cool it a little bit -- and then that delivers just one type of Chi, but then we have some abilities cost 1, some cost 2, some cost 3, some cost 4, and then weaving those together is what gives them an interesting rotation. You might start with a 3, and then a 2, then a 1, then another 1, then a 2, then a 3, and that chaining together should help it feel different as opposed to like a Rogue or a Paladin that’s like, “build up to max, and then do a finisher, and then build up to max, and then do a finisher.”

    TS: Yeah, that was actually something that I’d noticed, now that you mention it, when I was playing at Blizzcon last year. I kind of looked at it and went, “well alright, I’m just going to look up what some theorycrafter says on how to do this because I can’t figure this out right now.”

    GS: Exactly. If for a guy like you, it isn’t intuitive, then we’re doomed.

    TS: Well, that’s what I do with everything anyway because I prefer to not have to think <laughs> but yeah, I definitely was noticing that it felt a lot smoother. I also noticed that the Monk has regained the ability to punch things without me pushing buttons.

    GS: Autoattack. Yeah. So, we tried it without autoattack, and it sucked, and so we said we’re not going to keep it just for the sake of being different. It was weird for a couple of reasons. One of the very first quests in the Pandaren starting area says, “Go up to this target dummy and attack it.” So you’d go up and click on the target dummy, and as a World of Warcraft player you expect him to hit the target, but he goes up and he does this. <pantomiming a fighting stance> And he sits there. And if you left for 15 minutes to get a beer, and came back, he’d still be doing this. And that feels really weird.

    It was kind of lame, when you were fighting a target, and you’d have it down to like 10 health, and you couldn’t kill it. And now you have to blow a special attack and lots of resources just to hit for 10 damage, whereas a Warrior’s just going to autoattack the thing down once it gets that wounded. So that felt weird.

    Those are the main reasons. We were kind of relieved, from a balance point of view. I don’t want to make it sound like the balance concerns were driving it in this case, but autoattack damage for melee classes is something like 30-40% of their damage, which means that we know that the worst player in the world will at least do 30-40% of the best player in the world. Once the skilled player’s doing 100%, and the worst player’s doing like 1%, it makes it really hard for us to balance the class. In addition, when there’s no auto attack, it means that that 30-40% needs to all get baked into the special attacks, which means that a Monk would hit for like 400% weapon damage, which you can see could have PvP ramifications. So, it’s just a safer place now.

    TS: That makes a lot of sense.

    GS: And nobody misses it. No one who’s tried it is like, “Man, the Monk was so cool without autoattack.” They’re like, “Yeah, this feels natural now.”

    TS: Yeah. I actually had to point it out to one of the guys who’d been playing a Monk the whole time. He was just like, “Oh. You’re right, I actually am autoattacking. Interesting.”

    Glyphs was one system I was looking at and trying to wrap my head around the changes. I think you guys had said something about this somewhere, but prime glyphs are basically gone now.


    GS: Yeah. We apologize for prime glyphs. They were a bad idea. At the time, we were worried that, say, a Paladin who didn’t have a glyph for Crusader Strike would be like, “What the hell? This is my most important ability! I need to glyph Crusader Strike! I don’t want to glyph... I don’t know, Turn Evil or something like that, because I want a glyph for Crusader Strike.” So we did that, and it ended up just complicating everything because now we have to imagine that, “Oh yeah, everyone has stupid prime glyphs that give them 5% damage or crit or something like that.”

    Since we were pulling out a lot of the passive talents, we were like, “Lets just get rid of the prime glyphs at the same time.” It allowed us to focus a lot more on the major and minor glyphs. Paladins had like 10 minor glyphs, and I think 9 of them were, “And it costs less mana!” Which was terrible. We apologize for that too. The new Paladin minor glyphs I think are pretty cool. There’s some actual interesting stuff in there. Again, minor glyphs are all about cosmetic things. You’re not going to find a lot of power in there, but there’s some legitimately interesting things. I think players will be like, “Oh, this is a fun glyph.” And then we did the same thing with the majors. Rather than just taking the prime glyphs out and having fewer glyphs, we converted all the old prime glyphs to major glyphs, so everyone... I think the Paladin has like 26 majors and 10 minors. And, you know, Prot doesn’t want the glyph of Holy Shock and stuff like that but there still should be some real game changers. I think we’re closer to delivering what we originally said glyphs would do.

    TS: Yeah, I noticed that a lot of at least the major glyphs I was looking at when I was poking around on the Hunter I had were things that used to be talents that you might take as well.

    GS: Yeah, that was another source of... when we had talents that we thought were interesting, but weren’t solid enough to just be core class spells, we made them glyphs. I think I mentioned once before that we now have a Glyph of Rude Interruption, which on a Warrior, increases your damage when you successfully Pummel. That feels like a fun glyph. You have to give up one of your three major slots to get it, it theoretically can increase your damage if you’re like an interrupting machine, but it didn’t feel like they should just always be rewarded for interrupting without making a choice there. So, that’s cool.

    I’m trying to think of some of the Paladin glyphs, since you didn’t get to actually see them, but I think there’s some decent stuff in there... Oh, okay, one of the ones that I really like is the Glyph of Consecrate. So, Consecrate now is Protection only. Ret and Holy don’t need it and don’t have it, and it’s very much down to a core rotation ability now because it has a 9 second cooldown and a 9 second duration. So they’re hitting it fairly often. The Glyph of Consecrate allows you to target it. So, it gives you a targetting reticle and you can just Consecrate wherever you want. So you can see, that feels like a real game changer, but do you want to give up a glyph to have that?

    TS: <grinning> See the grin on my face?

    GS: <laughs> The Glyph of Divine Plea, which Divine Plea is Holy only now, changes it from a “for the next X seconds you’re a bad healer” to a cast time, and then at the end of that cast time you get all the mana right away. So you have to pay the cast time, and while you’re casting you’re not doing anything, but at the end of the cast time you get all the mana and there’s no self Mortal Strike that a lot of Paladins hate.

    TS: Almost like the actual original implementation back in the Wrath of the Lich King beta. I remember it was something that you used to... like, you kneeled down on the ground and you channeled it for a few seconds.

    GS: Yeah.

    TS: Theoretical question. What would you say the differences are now between the talent and glyph systems? What sort of defines each system as being its own thing instead of almost like two takes on the same general idea?

    GS: I think they are two takes on the same general idea. The biggest difference is the talents are bigger and more important. They actually do provide a lot of core functionality. You can do really powerful things. We’d never give you crowd control as a glyph, for example. We actually talked about an implementation where there were major talents and minor talents, and we’d just turn all the glyphs into minor talents, because that’s kind of how they felt. The main reason we didn’t do that is we didn’t know what the hell to do with the Inscription profession then. <laughs> We’d have to come up with entirely new content, or just remove it from the game.

    But it does really feel like that. You get six major talents, and then three major glyphs, which are kind of like minor talents, and then the minor glyphs which are very trivial. Glyph of Righteous Retreat is one that I’m very happy with. That decreases the cast time of Hearthstone when you have Divine Shield up.

    TS: Yeah, one of the guys from Wowhead was talking to me about that one. He was like, “did you know this was in here?” And I just kinda went... “Greg.” <laughs>

    Legendaries have been a hot topic for basically forever. I have several questions regarding them. The first one is, do we know when we might see the first legendary in Mists of Pandaria, and what sort of theme it might be around?


    GS: We won’t do it in 5.0 and the initial launch, because we figure that’s just... you know, players are getting used to everything, we don’t need to spice things up at that point because everything’s so new. We might do one in the first raid after that. We haven’t completely decided yet, and don’t know what it could be yet.

    TS: They’ve been kind of, especially with Dragonwrath, mostly because everybody and their cousin had one... the joke on Eredar is, “oh, nobody got a Dragonwrath today.”

    GS: <laughs> There’s no dragon sitting in Stormwind or Orgrimmar

    TS: Yeah. But even with the Fangs of the Father... I love the Fangs of the Father questline, I got to do the first part on my Rogue. Just the first part, because I’m not cool enough to get legendaries, but I got to go through the whole sneaking around thing, and that was really fun, and that class-focused thing felt really cool. But what do you think about the effect that it tends to have on like, over-reliance on one class in a raid group? Like, especially in a 10-man where maybe you don’t have a Rogue, and then the 10-man feels gimped. Even if it doesn’t end up making a huge difference in the long run, they just feel like, “Well, we’re not working on a Rogue legendary right now.” Especially if you guys are going to be looking towards more focused legendaries in the future.

    GS: I think part of that is because almost every raiding Rogue had an expectation of getting a legendary. That’s something I’ve talked about a little bit recently. So, one dark secret that players have probably all figured out by now is that Blizzard designers tend to careen from one extreme to the other, and so, when we decide something doesn’t work out, we go to the complete opposite, illogical extreme, and then we reel it back in a little bit. So, we were kind of reacting against the Warglaives model where, “You have a tiny percent chance of getting a legendary! Congrats!” to trying to make it a little more predictable, and the way we did that was with the style where you need so many parts, and the parts have a fairly predictable droprate, and eventually you’ll have your legendary, which then led to the opposite problem of they’re super predictable, people could point to a calendar day and say, “April 20th! That’s when I get my legendary!”

    So, the model I think we’re going to try next is a compromise between the two where you can imagine, instead of it just being a Warglaive or a binding, you need 10 pieces, but the 10 pieces have a very low drop rate. So, some guilds will get all ten and they’ll be happy, some guilds will get five, and they’ll be unhappy, but the legendaries will be a lot more rare. They won’t be entirely RNG, but they won’t be entirely grindy either.

    TS: How do you feel about the advantage that would give to the lucky guilds in terms of raid progression?

    GS: They would be lucky. <grins>

    TS: Well, I guess that’s a fair answer. Has there been any consideration, especially now that the transmogrification feature is in place, of maybe making it not an extremely better item, maybe a little bit better, but something you can transmog into so you can say, “I went through this heroic, awesome questline” and have it as more of a badge of honor than anything else?

    GS: We might allow transmogrification of legendaries at some point. We wanted to start that feature off super conservative and open it up later. We thought that one of the things that made the legendaries so cool was that you didn’t see them all the time, and we thought that once everyone was running around with Hand of Ragnaros, or Warglaives, legendaries start to feel a little cheaper. So that’s why we haven’t done it. I know a lot of players want to see us do it, and maybe we will.

    The other part of that, I feel is kind of arguing “Should we have Legendaries at all?” and I think you could make the case, “No, we shouldn’t.” But, if you just take them out, just for balance considerations, I feel like a little bit of the game is lost. We sacrifice so much in the name of balance that it would be sad to think we could no longer make orange weapons because they’re so hard to balance, and by their nature they’re going to be impossible to balance. To ever say, “here’s a super powerful weapon that a small percentage of people can have” is inherently a balance problem, and at the same time, to make legendaries gimped or just barely better than epic weapons, I feel is sad, and I think ultimately the game would feel a little smaller if we had to go that route.

    TS: That’s definitely an argument that I myself have been making, that they should be.

    GS: Yeah, I see the other side of it too. It’s not cut and dry at all.

    TS: I totally get it.

    <At this point of the interview I was trying to decide what to ask next>


    GS: I could tell you how looting works. I want to make sure someone gets it who understands it. So I could tell you that while you think of the next [question].

    TS: Go for it.

    GS: So a couple of things we’re doing that are a little different this time is, in Raid Finder and for the world bosses, we are not having loot rolls. We’re having per-player loot. So what this means is, the game will decide that X number of players, say it’s 3 to 6 in a raid, are going to get loot this time, and then it gives them loot that’s appropriate for their current spec, whether that’s their main spec or offspec. We feel like loot works really well in organized groups who can sit there and decide who’s gonna get the item, and when you’re with your guild or group of friends, even if you don’t get the item and they do, you know that still helps your progression ultimately.

    None of that happens in Raid Finder, and there’s a lot of drama, a lot of hard feelings, like, “He just needed that item because he could! He’s not going to use it! I could use it, it was a huge upgrade for me!” So we feel like just going to per-player loot, almost in a Diablo sense, will help with that, because then, if you get a sword, I don’t get mad that you got the sword instead of me. Maybe we both get the sword. Maybe neither of us did.

    TS: Or maybe you just say, “Well he got lucky, and I didn’t, but it’s not that he got it instead of me.”

    GS: Yeah, he didn’t take my weapon away. So that’s one big change we’re making. Another one is, we have this idea of the “bonus roll”, and the way the bonus roll works is, of the Pandaren factions -- I think there’s 7 or 8 of them -- some of them earn a currency called Elder Tokens, because they’re like the more serious and important factions. And then some of them earn Craftsman Tokens. These are the guys like the tillers and the fishermen. The Craftsman Tokens are used typically to purchase fun, flavor items that aren’t very powerful, and then the Elder Tokens are actually what you use to purchase your epic items that players expect to see on faction vendors.

    However, the other thing you can purchase with Elder Tokens, for say, 25 tokens, you can buy a Charm of Good Fortune. The Charm of Good Fortune you take with you into a raid -- raid finder, normal, or heroic -- and when you kill a boss, it pops up a little window and says, “Do you want to use your charm?” If you use your charm, it gives you an additional chance to get loot off of that boss. So the way it works is, you always win something. The kind of booby prize is you always get gold. It could be a lot of gold, but it’s still just gold. Maybe you’ll win a gem, maybe a flask, something like that, but you might also get an extra loot off that boss. And again, if you win the loot, it’s not hurting anyone else’s chances. It’s just bonus loot.

    So backing up a bit, hardcore raiders tell us two things. They say, “Man, I used to like it when I had to go out and prepare for a raid instead of logging in, doing my raid, and then logging off.” but then they also say, “Please don’t ever go back to farming consumables, because that was not a lot of fun. It gave me something to do, but it wasn’t a fun thing to do.” So the idea behind this is, someone who wants to can go out and earn this chance for extra loot, and a lot of very progressive-oriented players are going to feel like they need to do that in order to get that loot, but there’s still a little bit of a game there of, “Do I use the roll on the first boss? Do I save it for the last boss, because he probably has better stuff? Do I want to use it now and have a chance of getting progressed a little faster?” Yes, we’ll be asking some hardcore raiders to go out there and do a few daily quests but I feel like that will be much more fun than going out there and farming mats for consumables.

    TS: As long as I’m not flying around Terokkar for four hours before raid time trying to get enough for flasks, then I’m down. That was the extreme that I didn’t like, but I’m fine with doing a little bit of extra stuff outside. That’s actually pretty cool.

    GS: And you theoretically could show up to your hardcore raid without that at all, because you could have it and you might just win gold off of it. It’ll slow down your progression a little bit in the sense that not everyone in the group is getting geared up, but it wouldn’t slow down your progression as much as, “You don’t have a flask for the heroic boss.”

    TS: And that works in normal and heroic as well, you said?

    GS: Yep. Raid finder, normal, and heroic.

    TS: So does it have a chance to give you extra heroic drops?

    GS: Yep.

    TS: Interesting. So you did a blog post a while ago about the “Great Item Squish (Or Not) of Mists of Pandaria.” I noticed that the combat text was popping up and saying things like “14K” instead of 14,000 or whatever. Is that the route you decided to go with, like the “mega damage” approach?

    GS: Yeah, we went with the “not.” Mega Damage, here to stay. So we had this all in and working. We squished everything, and it was working. We had the whole thing implemented, and we sat down and tried it out, and, you know, Mortal Strike hit for 200, and Fireball hit for 150, and we were like, “This feels wrong.” We knew exactly how it would feel like, and we knew that our damage as a percentage didn’t go down, but it felt terrible. And we were like, “Okay, this is now super risky”, because we’re going to change talent trees on players, and even though we think it’s a great design, and we think players will love it, it’s a hard sell. And to do that, and have them hit really wimpy, I think even if players understood why we did it, deep down they wouldn’t like it.

    So we decided to back off of that. We’re trying the solution with commas, and K’s, and M’s, and to be honest, it helps a lot, and our hope is, by 6.0 or 7.0, players are demanding the item squish, and by then it’s not controversial at all. It’s like a celebration when we finally do it.
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  2. #2
    Wow, that music really necessary through the whole interview? Nothing like listening to a balding old white man talk about video games with techno blaring in the background for 17 minutes.

  3. #3
    After seeing the J. Allen Brack interview MoP is only likely to be released end of Nov/Decem, still a lot of work to be done.

    So the most exciting things this year on the RP front is SWTOR 1.2 (April), Diablo 3 (May), Guild wars 2(Sep-Dec), MoP(Dec). The last 2 is just guess work but seems about right.

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    Because of the music I got very little out of watching the video, had to go back and read the whole thing to figure out what was actually being said.

    The interview was entertaining and informative, the video was terrible.

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    I didn't mind the music in the question cards, but it would have been better left out when GC was talking. I'd also have enjoyed it more if we could hear Lore asking the questions as opposed to having the question cards, I generally like to put these on in the background and continue doing something else, wasn't really an option when I risk missing what's actually being talked about.

    Those gripes aside, thanks for the interview - I'm really enjoying the info coming out for MOP, though the lack of apparent progress on the raid front (going by the J. Allen Brack interview) is a bit worrying, I was hoping what looked like a lack of effort put into DS was due to it being invested in the MOP raid front, apparently not.

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    Weird, I hear him just fine with the music quietly playing in the background and no issues at all. Wonder if it's some setting?

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    This one was fine for me...the other interview was extremely difficult to follow though.

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    So we decided to back off of that. We’re trying the solution with commas, and K’s, and M’s, and to be honest, it helps a lot, and our hope is, by 6.0 or 7.0, players are demanding the item squish, and by then it’s not controversial at all. It’s like a celebration when we finally do it.
    I didn't get that part ...
    So they doing "Mega Damage" trololol e-peen for Mists and they will make a proper squish for the Sargeras or w/e expansion ?

  9. #9
    More or less. They're basically not messing with it in this expansion, just going to try and make the numbers as easy to understand as they can in the default UI (popping up with "103k" instead of "103652", for example). I suspect a lot of addon makers will follow suit, or at least provide the option. The item squish is still on the table and will probably happen, but in a future expansion once the issue has become more apparent.

    It's a move I can agree with. Right now they kind of have to convince people it's even a problem -- a lot of people would never have even thought about it if it wasn't for the blog post GC put together a couple months back. If they let things get out of hand first, the issue will be much more apparent and more obvious why the squish needed to actually happen.
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    So i understand his reasoning for not doing the item squish. And in all actuality, doing it to be an effective fix probably wouldn't have gone over so well at this time and for the future expacs. But if end game MoP sees tanks pushing 1M health, that's just gonna be ridiculous.

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    I'm aiming for 1 MEGA hp in MoP

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    GS: And you theoretically could show up to your hardcore raid without that at all, because you could have it and you might just win gold off of it. It’ll slow down your progression a little bit in the sense that not everyone in the group is getting geared up, but it wouldn’t slow down your progression as much as, “You don’t have a flask for the heroic boss.
    Really?

    It'll slow down progression in the sense that .... not everyone is getting geared up.
    But not slow down progression in the sense of not having a buff.

    Problems I see with this.......

    1) Gear trumps flask. Sorry kids. But No flask will make up the loss of dps between say.... tier 12 gear and tier 13 gear. What was it that was figured?..... t12 full heroic is like 20k dps behind full t13 heroic gear?

    2) Gear is progression. Again, with gear inflating as it has been (more on that to follow)..... NOT getting geared up will be the ultimate determining factor in progression. Flasks just won't mean squat unless they give a percentage based buff.



    TS: Interesting. So you did a blog post a while ago about the “Great Item Squish (Or Not) of Mists of Pandaria.” I noticed that the combat text was popping up and saying things like “14K” instead of 14,000 or whatever. Is that the route you decided to go with, like the “mega damage” approach?

    GS: Yeah, we went with the “not.” Mega Damage, here to stay. So we had this all in and working. We squished everything, and it was working. We had the whole thing implemented, and we sat down and tried it out, and, you know, Mortal Strike hit for 200, and Fireball hit for 150, and we were like, “This feels wrong.” We knew exactly how it would feel like, and we knew that our damage as a percentage didn’t go down, but it felt terrible. And we were like, “Okay, this is now super risky”, because we’re going to change talent trees on players, and even though we think it’s a great design, and we think players will love it, it’s a hard sell. And to do that, and have them hit really wimpy, I think even if players understood why we did it, deep down they wouldn’t like it.

    So we decided to back off of that. We’re trying the solution with commas, and K’s, and M’s, and to be honest, it helps a lot, and our hope is, by 6.0 or 7.0, players are demanding the item squish, and by then it’s not controversial at all. It’s like a celebration when we finally do it.
    This section..... blows my mind.

    He has essentially stated that they're going to keep the current system in place. So, what will the difference in dps from t14 and t15 gear be like? How does a player make up that kind of difference? How are they going to balance keeping gear worthwhile, while contending with the whiners who want their gear to be a "meaningful upgrade"?

    Just a quick example..... the difference between t12 and t13, again... in some cases is like 20k dps. What will we do when the difference between t14 and t15 is say.... 100k dps? How do you design a raid around that? Is the person in t14 just totally screwed going into t15 content?

    Oh..... and I really LOVE this part......

    our hope is, by 6.0 or 7.0, players are demanding the item squish, and by then it’s not controversial at all. It’s like a celebration when we finally do it.
    YOU GUYS ALREADY KNOW IT'S NEEDED.
    WTF?

    So, your method is essentially..... "We're going to wait until things are so freakin broken that people get pissed, and then we're going to do something. See, people will be really mad by then and then, when we change things, people will REJOICE because we went from REALLY f*cked up, to functioning."

    o_O

    Mr. Street.....
    You must not like your job much. Because you guys seem real intent on killing off your subscription base.




    No one tanks in a void.........

  13. #13
    Join Date
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    Connecticut
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    I think you're taking GC a bit literally and not taking the context of the previous paragraph about farming flasks for 4 hours before raid. I think it was in the context of a farming grind.

    What's the big deal about the squish? Who cares when they do it, it's more of a techinical, processor load thing then anything the player needs to worry about.

    I think people just like to nit pick anything GC says. Personally, I think the guy knows more about the game, its internal functioning, what makes a difference, how it's played, what the player base as a whole wants, etc than anyone one. And I think he's always been straight with the player base - plans may change but he tends to tell it like it is. I like the guy.

    Far from killing off subs, I think they're going out of their way to please everyone and attract new players. What may hurt subs the most is the time between this press even and the actual launch.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    I think you're taking GC a bit literally and not taking the context of the previous paragraph about farming flasks for 4 hours before raid. I think it was in the context of a farming grind.
    No. I read the part about the farming-for-flasks. What you're missing Theo is that, without the item squish..... gear > flasks.
    Consider. What is the value of a flask for a player in 346 gear vs 401? The value of the flask has greatly diminished. Yes, it's an increase in stats, but with stat inflation what it is, it's damn near a drop in the bucket.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    What's the big deal about the squish? Who cares when they do it, it's more of a techinical, processor load thing then anything the player needs to worry about.
    When you have exponential growth in gear "improvements", you are creating an increasingly more difficult gear chase. When the difference in one piece of gear starts to become thousands of dps..... problems will follow. That's the direction this is headed.

    Sure, they're just clipping off three zeroes and making it a "K". The problem is, improving gear from tier to tier, you'll be unable to increase it in smaller increments as a result. +10 strength will be meaningless because the effect of that +10 will be completely lost in the "K". This will in turn cause players to want to see "meaningful increases", which means gear will have to increase by 100's to be able to "see" the effect.

    Yes, there is a processor load issue. But you're overly simplifying the matter Theo.
    Again..... GC himself ADMITS.......

    our hope is, by 6.0 or 7.0, players are demanding the item squish, and by then it’s not controversial at all. It’s like a celebration when we finally do it.
    He is ADMITTING IT IS A PROBLEM..... but they are turning a blind eye to it intentionally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    I think people just like to nit pick anything GC says. Personally, I think the guy knows more about the game, its internal functioning, what makes a difference, how it's played, what the player base as a whole wants, etc than anyone one. And I think he's always been straight with the player base - plans may change but he tends to tell it like it is. I like the guy.

    Far from killing off subs, I think they're going out of their way to please everyone and attract new players. What may hurt subs the most is the time between this press even and the actual launch.
    I'll agree that Greg has always been pretty open with us. That's one thing I do appreciate. I disagree with you that, they're really listening.
    Of course, you may be right. They may be listening to the player base..... and the player base might be less intelligent than I had hoped.

    And I disagree. What will hurt subs most isn't not-getting-it-out-fast-enough. Not-getting-it-out-fast-enough will hurt sales. What will hurt subs the most is when people turn it on and start playing, then get deeper into MoP and realize that it's freakin broken. Initial release won't be the issue..... it'll be two to three months after when people are starting to raid and realize that something's wrong.



    No one tanks in a void.........

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    Connecticut
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    4,029
    Okay, I see your point, but squish be damned; I want these two chest pieces and I want them NOW:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3885585

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
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    1
    I see you like walls of text, so I made a wall of text in reply to your wall of text so you could read/ignore my wall of text while writing another wall of text.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    Yes, it's an increase in stats, but with stat inflation what it is, it's damn near a drop in the bucket.


    Everything is a drop in the bucket. A flask is the same effect as upgrading 30 gems from rare to epic quality. That is not insignificant, even at current levels of gear. Yes, flasks had relatively more impact during tier 11 vs tier 13, but not so much as to make them trivial.

    I like the idea of flasks scaling with tiers (as well as food buffs, potions, gems, enchants, profession bonuses, etc). Maybe new recipes each tier that use mats found in the raids of that tier? That would be slick. Maybe too much work though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    When the difference in one piece of gear starts to become thousands of dps..... problems will follow. That's the direction this is headed.


    Your logical flaw here is that you are comparing numbers absolutely, not relatively. If you take "thousands of dps" out of context, it means nothing, which is how you're currently thinking. In that situation, I can understand how you can't wrap your mind around this, so maybe I can help.

    (Disclaimer, I'm making numbers up, but that doesn't really matter)

    Imagine we're in a level 60 raid and you're doing 100dps. A new tier comes out and you're doing 200dps. That's a 100% increase in your dps, but only 100dps increase.

    Now you're in a level 70 and doing 400dps. Next tier, you're pulling 800dps. Again, that's a 100% increase.

    Now 80 pulling 1000dps. Next tier 2000dps. Again, 100% increase

    Now 85 pulling 20,000dps. Next tier 40,000dps. Again, 100% increase.

    Now 90 pulling 100,000dps. Next tier, 200,000dps. Again, 100% increase.

    The percentages are identical changes, but the actual number is drastically different. In the end, the actual number you're pulling doesn't mean anything. It's all about the relative magnitudes. Going one tier back at level 60 means you could kill a boss twice as fast, just like at 90. So you see, how you "feel" as a player has nothing to do with numbers, and everything to do with percentages.

    There are only two issues with numbers that large: large numbers are hard to display and they're hard to compute. The magnitudes of the numbers mean nothing on progression, it's all about the relative percentage based changes. Your concerns are irrelevant to the topic at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    +10 strength will be meaningless because the effect of that +10 will be completely lost in the "K". This will in turn cause players to want to see "meaningful increases", which means gear will have to increase by 100's to be able to "see" the effect.
    This is exactly correct, but again, this only matters from a display and computing perspective. It has no balancing/scaling issues whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    He is ADMITTING IT IS A PROBLEM..... but they are turning a blind eye to it intentionally.


    They aren't doing that at all. If you read, they even coded up a full development version of the game that had everything "squished." He said that it felt wrong, and the reason they're not putting it in the game for MoP is twofold: they're worried how players would react given the fact that other things are changing drastically, and also they have an interim solution that will handle the display part of the problem.

    When it comes right down to it, GC isn't really in charge. Blizzard has to accompany the player base, so really we're the ones who are in charge. The sad thing is the average level of intelligence of the player base simply can't cope with these changes before they're actually needed. It's like the fact that people will drive their cars forever with the Check Engine warning light on, but will do nothing about it until their transmission falls out on the way home. People are stupid. WoW players are no exception.

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