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Thread: MoP Buffs/Debuffs

  1. #1
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    MoP Buffs/Debuffs

    Ghostcrawler has posted another blog, this time about the Mists of Pandaria buff and debuff design.

    There are to be a total of 8 buffs: Stats, Stamina, Attack Power, Spell Power, Haste (melee/ranged), Spell Haste, Critical Strike, and Mastery (new).

    And 6 debuffs: Weakened Armor, Physical Vulnerability, Magic Vulnerability, Weakened Blows, Slow Casting, and Mortal Wounds.

    I was looked down who was giving what and saw something interesting:

    Buff/Debuff Total Number
    of specs
    Stats 10
    Stamina 9
    Attack Power 9
    Spell Power 9
    Haste 6
    Spell Haste 3
    Critical Strike 8
    Mastery 7
    Weakened Armor 10
    Physical Vuln 5
    Magic Vuln 6
    Weakened Blows 9
    Slow Casting 9
    Mortal Wounds 8

    Obviously there are a few there that are seriously lacking in representation...in particular Spell Haste is looking REALLY anemic. It's even worse because it's ONLY the hybrid casters that bring the buff (ele shaman, moonkin and spriest)...commonly healer off-specs but rarely seen as main specs in 10 mans.

    Physical Vulnerability is spread out a BIT better, but it's odd to see neither of the physical pure classes have it (though it might be something a hunter pet can bring, as he did mention they liked that mechanism).

    Magical vulnerability makes even less sense...rogues bring it. Are they not a physical DPS class (yes, poisons do "magical" damage, but that hardly makes them a magic-based class)? At least there's warlocks (a magical pure class) bringing a buff for themselves.

    Melee/ranged haste also only has 6 specs bringing it, but at least it's spread across 3 different classes...still, they're easy to lack in a 10 man.

    Another weird effect is which classes bring what number of potential buffs:

    Class # of Buffs #Specs * #Buffs
    Death Knight 5 11
    Druid 5 13
    Hunter 3 9
    Mage 2 6
    Paladin 4 9
    Priest 2 4
    Rogue 5 15
    Shaman 4 8
    Warlock 4 12
    Warrior 6 16
    Monk 3 5

    Priests area really getting the shaft there, but Mages and Monks aren't looking too happy either. Hunters only get 3, but they will be getting pet buffs and those 3 are ones all specs get.

    By and large it's probably mostly an improvement, but it's really odd to see where it lacks. Why not give all mages spell haste? Or windwalker monks physical vulnerability? And maybe ditch magical vulnerability from rogues (since they have a billion already) and give it to all priests (like from Smite and Mind Flay)?

    I realize they want people to feel more powerful in a group (and if you gave mages haste they'd gain almost nothing from being in a group), but there are some definite spread-of-buffs/debuffs issues with their stated design.

  2. #2
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    While I agree with a lot of your post, I think it's a bit early to judge the numbers. This is the very first announcement of this change and the expansion isn't even in beta (probably 2-4 weeks before that comes). I'm willing to bet that the above numbers change, quite a bit, before official release.

  3. #3
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    Why not dump the entire system? You bring 5 people for a dungeon? Fine! Here's your +10% hp, +10% haste and +5% crit buff. You bring 10/25 people for your raid? Fine! Here's your xyz buff. It's way easier to balance around assuming every buff is present and no more struggling keeping track of them all.

    Blizzard's objection? They worry about 'class stacking'. Bring only the class that's best for this job and you can get your shiny purples more easily. At least from 10m PoV right now it's '(de)buff stacking', bring all the classes required to get the job done and and get your shiny purples more easily. I'd prefer the class stacking one, it's more in line with the "bring the player not the class" philosophy.

    Sane raidleaders would still bring a versatile of classes/speccs to cover all the loots and disenchant least unless one class is just overpowered. In this case it's Blizzard's fault and they need to adjust, not us bringing a druid over a second mage to get 8% more caster damage.

    And what's about personal or unique buffs? If you have the honor to raid with a warlock, an unholy dk, a rogue or an arcane mage you'll hear "DI/UF/Tricks/FM plzzzz" all the time. Blizzard announced 'war banner' for warrior in MoP, providing a raidwide 30% more critical strike for 15s buff. Just imagine you could have used that on your heroic spine progression. Will Blizzard tweak warrriors around this buff assuming the can deal 10% less damage than any other melee class because they provide such a huge burst? Didn't they learn from their bloodlust and windfury disaster with shamans in TBC? I don't get it, i simply don't get it.

  4. #4
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    Too early for this analysis. They are definitely headed towards the right direction with this, so cut them some slack until this is tested. Obviously a lot will change even before beta, like for example what buffs monks will bring. It cannot result in monks bringing almost nothing.

  5. #5
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    I really like what they are doing with the buff system, I didn't like the wrath model where your buffs were

    I would love to see the same system done to debuffs, which it largely has been, but I think this is the right direction.
    Last edited by leethaxor; 03-11-2012 at 12:54 PM.
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  6. #6
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    If they're going to have hunter pets bring buffs then they really need to make it across all specs - I dislike that I could be bring hero with my Corehound, but have to be BM to do it - a spec that gets put aside for pve once leveling is done.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    If they're going to have hunter pets bring buffs then they really need to make it across all specs - I dislike that I could be bring hero with my Corehound, but have to be BM to do it - a spec that gets put aside for pve once leveling is done.
    Or, alternatively, they could finally balance BM to make it more than a leveling spec. My hunter (who I play casually) is BM and I have a blast with it in heroics and LFR. If it were viable for progression raiding, I'd consider playing him a lot more. Seems like BM has been lackluster since the inception of the game. It was top DPS for about the first 2 months of TBC...other than that, it's always been in need of a buff.

  8. #8
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    BM is actually competitive with MM and closer to SV than MM is at that.

  9. #9
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    I noticed replenish isn't on the list. Are they going to drop replenish and balance raids around that, do you think?

    Honestly, I'm against the design of arranging your raid to cover a set of buffs; if you have a fixed 10-man roster based on who's available, you don't have the leisure of switching someone out because you don't have all the buffs for some reason. I'd rather see them make class buffs be targetable only on someone other than the player.

    For instance, imagine if each druid could only use MotW on one person, but it was a 20% buff to all stats. Use it on the tank to prevent one-shots? Use on a DPS, or maybe on the healer who's running low on mana to increase mana recovery?

    You could try to stack all your buffs on one DPS, but then good luck holding threat against the DPS...

  10. #10
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    There's more:
    replenish gone
    mana regeneration gone (from totem, might, felhunter)
    550 Strength/Agility gone
    5% Spellcrit gone (debuff)
    20% Attackspeed gone (debuff)
    armor gone (stoneskin/devotation aura)
    3% damage gone (arcane, ret, beastmaster)
    spell resistance (totem, aspect, aura)
    spell pushbar gone (conc aura, tranq totem)

    Also missing on the list: bloodlust. But i'm not sure if some of those things are just an oversight or those listed are just examples

    I'm curious, did they yed announce if they'll heavily reduce numbers across the board or implement "big numbers" @ level 90 they discussed in a blue post some months ago?

  11. #11
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    I seriously doubt they would axe bloodlust. Firstly, they would need to think up a new level 70 shaman ability and a new 85 mage ability. Secondly, it is a fun button to press. Yes, certain raid comps lack it (especially ten mans) but an easy way to fix that is to add another bloodlust spell to another class.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    I seriously doubt they would axe bloodlust. Firstly, they would need to think up a new level 70 shaman ability and a new 85 mage ability. Secondly, it is a fun button to press. Yes, certain raid comps lack it (especially ten mans) but an easy way to fix that is to add another bloodlust spell to another class.
    Well they gave warriors another raid cooldown with the war banner, and they already have shattering throw. The only question is if the 30% crit buff will give a sated affect or we will see raids running 5+ warriors to get maximum up time on the crit buff?
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  13. #13
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    We actually talk allot about this in this weeks Forum Junkies, Are general feeling was it was better for them to just roll all of these buffs into a new "Looking for Group'esq" Type of buff, where you walk into a 5 man/raid and you automatically get all of these buffs passive. It would be interesting to hear what they are going to do with all the buffs/debuffs they didn't mention and if this is the final version of the buffs/debuff (Probably not)

    Stay Tuned for this weeks Forum Junkies where we talk in depth about it, with 2 guest host.

  14. #14
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    I'ld definately would love to see The Warrior banner being on the same CD as Bloodlust, but with crit instead of haste. That way it's a great buff in 5-10mans and a tactical choice in 25mans!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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