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Thread: Cataclysm Post Mortem - Dungeons and Raids

  1. #21
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    I think the challenge modes are an elegant solution on paper, we'll see how they are implemented. I do like his ideas on a lot of things and I think he gets it. I'm kind of a bit disappointed he didn't address DS, or at least apologize for it.

    For all my talk about the original Cata heroics, I geared up a lot of toons in them; I was always most comfortable healing or dps'ing them on my hunter. On my hunter I knew I was going to cc and on my healers I controlled who died to stupid. And if you cc'd, took your time, pulled smart, they were not bad at all. As we started to get more 359 gear, they got easier and easier. But for a pug who was used to 15 minute badge runs, they were hell.

  2. #22
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    Couple of thoughts......

    1) Difficulty on Cata heroics out the gate..... I think the biggest issue was simply you went from an environment of no cc, no healing challenges at the end of WotLK to suddenly.... needing people who haven't had to do a ton of thinking to suddenly think! I'm trying to think right now of instances in Wrath where you really HAD to cc a mob prior to a pull....
    Hell, off the top of my head, I can only think of kill priorities in a few dungeons. I can't think of any spots in Wrath where it was truly necessary to cc anything. It was essentially run and gun.

    Anyhow, you go from a philosophy shift of "ZOOM POW BANG!" to actually having to tackle things with a strategy and you will have problems with the slow adopters. It's not that I didn't like the Cata heroics. I didn't like that PEOPLE didn't adjust to the new reality.

    2) Variance on Heroic Length..... Some were just short. Others.... like the Uldum dungeon.... holy crap. A full clear of that joint was just a long run. I think this was something where LFG kind of fails. If all of your instances are around the same length, it's not much of a big deal on random queue. If they're not, it can make the experience worse. Yes, you can be selective on which specific instances you were gunning for. Problem is.... extra incentive for a "random" versus pick-and-choose.

    Not sure how many of you would recall, but prior to LFG, people would farm certain heroics specifically for particular drops. You would run a particular instance as often as possible to try and land a certain gear piece. Hell, I remember having a list of items and locations that I actively hunted in order to get the gear I needed to tank. In some cases, that was the only compelling reason I had for running certain places. There were also other hurdles we faced. Assembling tank gear was really a matter of survival. If you didn't get the minimum required defense rating, you didn't tank. You couldn't because you couldn't guarantee that you wouldn't end up like a bug splattered on a windshield.

    As it stands currently, I really feel somewhat distant in regards to the whole situation with Cata and WoW. Can I offer reasonable suggestions? Certainly. Do I think there are ways to salvage the situation and turn it around? Of course. At the same time, I don't feel that Blizzard would honestly "listen".

    Eh, hell. I'll offer up some ideas.

    1) Linear stat progression. Go back to the stat progression that was in Vanilla between lvl 1 and 60. Expand this forward using that same statistic increase.

    2) Stop having HUGE stat increases between raiding tiers. Yes, you have gone from level 70 to 80. The problem is, between gear sets at level 80 between various tiers, your gear has increased in a way that is like having another "hidden" ten levels. Cata exacerbated this. You went up only 5 character levels..... but you have 10 to 15 levels worth of stat growth from tier gear improvements.

    3) Accept that you broke things and honestly commit to a real fix. Stop bandaging stuff up. Go back. Get stats corrected. Then go back through previous content and adjust the bosses accordingly to those new realities. Bring things in line with a future plan. Honestly Blizzard, you guys have been winging this crap every step of the way and now you're facing what you SHOULD have done with Cataclysm.... which is stopping, making functional improvements to the game with the long run in mind. You guys didn't do that and now you're paying the price.

    But hell. Who cares.
    As I see it right now, Blizzard is slowly drifitng back on track to making the same mistakes. At this point, I think MoP might very well be the end of the road for WoW.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post

    Not sure how many of you would recall, but prior to LFG, people would farm certain heroics specifically for particular drops. You would run a particular instance as often as possible to try and land a certain gear piece. Hell, I remember having a list of items and locations that I actively hunted in order to get the gear I needed to tank. In some cases, that was the only compelling reason I had for running certain places. There were also other hurdles we faced. Assembling tank gear was really a matter of survival. If you didn't get the minimum required defense rating, you didn't tank. You couldn't because you couldn't guarantee that you wouldn't end up like a bug splattered on a windshield.
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=37220 I must have run Azjol-Nerub a 1000 times for this; at the time I believe it was loaded with defense - it was a beast pre-raid tank trinket.

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    I liked Ghostcrawlers post-mortem, mentioned damn near everything they failed at and what they plan to fix making me more excited for MoP.
    I'm still disappointed at how Cata Heroics came out. I loved them they way they were and it was a mistake to make such a dramatic change in Heroic style from Burning Crusade to how it was WoTLK. It made absolutely no sense, they really shouldn't even call them Heroics anymore, might as well keep the max level dungeons as they are and the leveling dungeons just call them level 90 mode or something, cause there is nothing Heroic about it.

    Never understood why they spoiled us with such easy 5-mans in Wrath. Even Halls of Reflection proved to hard for some people lol.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    I liked Ghostcrawlers post-mortem, mentioned damn near everything they failed at and what they plan to fix making me more excited for MoP.
    I'm still disappointed at how Cata Heroics came out. I loved them they way they were and it was a mistake to make such a dramatic change in Heroic style from Burning Crusade to how it was WoTLK. It made absolutely no sense, they really shouldn't even call them Heroics anymore, might as well keep the max level dungeons as they are and the leveling dungeons just call them level 90 mode or something, cause there is nothing Heroic about it.

    Never understood why they spoiled us with such easy 5-mans in Wrath. Even Halls of Reflection proved to hard for some people lol.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=37220 I must have run Azjol-Nerub a 1000 times for this; at the time I believe it was loaded with defense - it was a beast pre-raid tank trinket.
    It didn't have any defense, it was just one of the only stam trinkets and EHP was king. It was one of the best trinkets to use until like late T9 or something.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    <big snip, I don't disagree, but it's not relevant to my post>

    2) Stop having HUGE stat increases between raiding tiers. Yes, you have gone from level 70 to 80. The problem is, between gear sets at level 80 between various tiers, your gear has increased in a way that is like having another "hidden" ten levels. Cata exacerbated this. You went up only 5 character levels..... but you have 10 to 15 levels worth of stat growth from tier gear improvements.
    This is probably the most important thing...I started playing my shaman in this expansion doing heroic dungeons in...probably 316 equipped ilvl gear. Right now I'm wearing ilvl 404 gear. That's almost ONE HUNDRED item levels. The difference in my gear between the start of Cata and now is more than the difference between my gear between the end of Ulduar and the start of Cata level 85 content. AND THIS IS AFTER THEY ACKNOWLEDGED THEY SCALED GEAR TOO FAST IN WRATH.

    Seriously. STOP. It's PERFECTLY OK for "a full tier" to be 10 ilvls and NOT 19.

    346->359->372->378->391->397->410 IS TOO FAST. Let's say you did want to start with heroic blues at 345 (because I like 5s)...a REASONABLE course of action would have been:

    Tier iLvl
    Heroic blues 345
    T11 Normal 350
    T11 Heroic 360
    Troll Heroics 350
    T12 Normal 360*
    T12 Heroic 370
    Hour of Twilight Heroics 360
    T13 LFR 365
    T13 Normal 370
    T13 Heroic 380

    (*: Yes...the same as the previous tier's heroic...set bonuses and superior itemization can make them upgrades from heroic previous tier gear...or not, and that's cool too.)

    So you have LFR at 5 below a tier's normal gear and if you're releasing a 5 man that's supposed to be "harder" (trolls, hour of twilight dungeons, etc), throw it in 5 below that.

    If you want to say "well Rag is super tough, we want to reward people who kill him more" then you can toss another 5 ilvls on that (so normal rag gear would be 365 and heroic would be 375, ditto spine/madness gear being 375/385).

    This drops 30 item levels off the top. The #1 effect of this is obvious...less player power. There are other benefits too, though...it makes previously released content relevant, if you are interested in doing it. It means that Jimmy Normalmode can still find relevant content in previous tiers and 5 mans...it expands what they have available to them. And hey...if you release a piece as overwhelmingly glorious as the Shard of Contempt then it's RELEVANT to get it, even if you're a heroic raider.

    Now, the problem with this can be that having too much grinding on random drops can burn you out pretty easily...I would suggest that while random drops are not inherently evil, the whole nature of how they do loot can be EXCEPTIONALLY frustrating...something (and I don't have a suggestion as to what this might be off the top of my head, but then again they're not paying me to come up with one either) could be done to make the pain a bit less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    3) Accept that you broke things and honestly commit to a real fix. Stop bandaging stuff up. Go back. Get stats corrected. Then go back through previous content and adjust the bosses accordingly to those new realities. Bring things in line with a future plan. Honestly Blizzard, you guys have been winging this crap every step of the way and now you're facing what you SHOULD have done with Cataclysm.... which is stopping, making functional improvements to the game with the long run in mind. You guys didn't do that and now you're paying the price.
    Indeed. One can only hope that, their idiot dungeon/raid guy aside, they ARE doing this...they are fixing the underlying systems and making things more sensible and creating content for their "large niches" in a reasonable fashion.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=37220 I must have run Azjol-Nerub a 1000 times for this; at the time I believe it was loaded with defense - it was a beast pre-raid tank trinket.
    Oh. I feel ya. Even though it was later on, I went and farmed normal Tournament to get [The Black Heart].
    Finally drops..... gets ninja'ed by a feral druid dps..... "for mah pvp spec".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    Indeed. One can only hope that, their idiot dungeon/raid guy aside, they ARE doing this...they are fixing the underlying systems and making things more sensible and creating content for their "large niches" in a reasonable fashion.
    Amen. Amen to every last bit you said Ion.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  9. #29
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    More from GC: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4519250


    Excerpt
    Q. What didn’t work out as planned?

    Everything else! Seriously though, we tend to be our own harshest critics, so it’s actually easy for us to point out things that didn’t work out as expected.

    While zones like Uldum and Deepholm look fantastic, they didn’t fit together as well as we’d have liked. In the planning phases, we didn’t think that having scattered end game zones would be a big deal. It turned out to feel a lot weirder than expected. Players ended up teleporting to nearly every destination, and it gave Cataclysm a disjointed feeling, detracting from that feeling of exploration and discovery. We learned that giving players a land to explore, a sense of place, is valuable. Ultimately, the scattered zones and the portals both served to kind of shrink the world, when we want to make the world a place you want to go out and be in. We’re definitely looking forward to getting back to a continent in Mists. We underestimated how important that was.

    In addition, while we liked that each zone has a story, questing ended up being too linear. It didn’t feel like you could fly into a zone, find some quest givers, and explore. Instead, you kind of had to start at the beginning and follow all the quests to the end, and if you didn’t like a quest, well, you had to stick with it to get to the next one. We want zones to have an identity, flavor and a story, but we don’t want to railroad players through a zone either.

    The difficulty at which we pegged our heroic dungeons and raids was controversial. They were designed to be about as tough as the dungeons were back in Burning Crusade, but the game has changed since then. Coming out of Lich King, we’d gotten the message loud and clear from players that they wanted tougher challenges. They liked the convenience of Dungeon Finder, but they missed using their crowd control and survival abilities and having to strategize about how to beat a given encounter. We designed the Cataclysm heroics with that in mind, and the players who wanted challenging content were thrilled.

    The problem was that we had this whole group of players who felt like they couldn’t make any progress on their characters. Even if they wanted to end up raiding with their friends, they couldn’t earn the gear they needed to get into those raids (especially in the absence of Raid Finder). I don’t believe that the instances were too hard; it’s obvious there are players who enjoy that content. I believe the problem was that there were no alternatives. With such a diverse community, the goal is to have experiences that players from all over the spectrum can enjoy. We don’t want to shut anyone out. So, we’re addressing that with Challenge Modes in Mists. You’ll have normal and heroic mode dungeons, and then Challenge Modes, for players who are looking to prove their mettle. Likewise, you’ll have normal and heroic raids, and Raid Finder for players who don’t enjoy wiping on a boss week after week until they can master it.



    While choosing a spec at level 10 felt great, we weren’t very happy with the rest of the talent tree overhaul. We definitely pruned some dead wood from the trees and got rid of some talents that weren’t a lot of fun, but players felt like they weren’t getting anything out of the bargain. Having simpler trees is a good goal, but it would have felt better if players felt like they got something cool in return for losing some boring fluff. Unfortunately, as is the case with many compromises, this one didn’t fully solve the original problems it was intended to solve, while it created new ones.

    Fundamentally, taking into account what we’ve learned about talent trees over the years, we’ve come to the conclusion that the talent tree model where you pick up tiny performance increases here and there (and where there’s, mathematically, nearly always a ‘right’ answer and a ‘wrong’ answer) is not a great model. The Mists talent design is a major revamp that should fix this problem once and for all. Talents should be meaningful game-changers. At absolute worst a given talent may be the right one only situationally, and at best, players will have a lot more customization to make their play-style stand out. Furthermore, the fact that you’ll have more flexibility to change your talents should help keep gameplay fresh, even with that character that you play most often.



    I feel like I should mention Abyssal Maw again. As with many cancelled features, it somehow took on a life of its own in the minds of players. Believe me, though -- you just don’t cancel things that you think are going to be awesome. It was three bosses inside Nespirah, with no unique art. The reason it was originally appealing to us was because we had so many Vashj’ir assets that we could use. But by the time it was time to do the work, we felt like we (and many players) had Vashj’ir fatigue. Now don’t get me wrong -- I loved Vashj’ir. I was an oceanographer, remember? Vashj’ir delivered on the promise of an underwater zone, but we feel like most players were ready to be done with it by the time they had quested through that. (Individuals will feel differently -- it’s that diverse player base thing again.) Firelands received a lot of new art, from bosses to environments, and we just didn’t feel like Abyssal Maw was going to compete. Who knows, though! We haven’t totally given up on the idea of cool underwater experiences, so maybe there’s potential we’d visit it again someday. (For my money, the zone I am personally saddest about cancelling is not Abyssal Maw; it was the Azjol-Nerub quest zone in Wrath of the Lich King.)

    Speaking of raids, we also weren’t particularly happy with how accessible legendary items became in Cataclysm. Multiple characters in a single raiding guild were getting, and worse, expecting a legendary weapon. Legendaries are supposed to be rare and exciting, not a bar you fill up like some reputation grind, and certainly not something you feel entitled to get because it’s “your turn.” Dragonwrath in particular was usable by a large variety of class specs, which coupled with the guarantee to completion, just made them too ubiquitous. In the future, legendaries will be more legendary, perhaps so much so that not every raiding guild will have one. In that model, there might be those who almost, but not quite, complete one, but there will also be those who finish one and feel truly honored.

    I have mixed feelings about Archaeology. I feel like it’s a good addition to professions and offers more, and more varied, gameplay than our existing professions. Still, it’s clear that some players wanted more. We wanted Archaeology to be hard to complete. We didn’t want it to be one of those professions you can max out by buying up mats at the Auction House. But random reward systems whose long-term goals are more interesting than the short term ones can feel grindy. Archaeology had too much travel time. It could be punishingly random, especially for players who imagined that it would be a guaranteed delivery mechanism for Zin’rokh (which was never the intention). Players missed a lot of the lore, which was delivered in the Archaeology journal and not as part of the survey or digging experience. We think the Mists of Pandaria expansion will be really good for Archaeology. Players will be focused on a couple of new races on a single continent, so travel and randomness will be reduced automatically, and leveling Archaeology should be a bit more convenient since there will be more opportunities to dig at a single site. We have other tricks up our sleeve too.
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  10. #30
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    He never really mentions making gear more interesting or the "squish". Wonder if those in the plans. By interesting, I mean, for example, how you farmed ICC to get the tank neck, ring that had not only tank stats, but, say the extra armor on them - I forget their names, but I recall a tank neck and ring that both had an extra slug of armor on them. Those were nice choices to make and gave you something to look forward to every time you ran it.

  11. #31
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    A great thing to read. Somehow the two former post mortems just annoyed the shit out of me even tho i knew they were just to be seen as PR fluff and not a sign of insight.

    Now i think it's more clear that they left the self critizism to GC and i think he did a good job. It's not the binary view of too hard or too easy. He acknowledges that the player base is huge and and the real problem is to give everyone something. I feared tho that it was a choice to aim towards one crowd and hand out the rest of the resources to the shareholders.

    Now it's said tho, and i hope we will also see this in reality that Blizzard can please both crowds of players (and share holders).

    What i miss in his post mortem is the 10 vs 25 man raid format view and what it will happen. Will it be 15 man only?

    As mentioned i also wonder about the item squish. Will it happen?

    Hm one thing i wonder in addition is if they will keep experimenting with every tier as much as in Cata. Nerf after tier, super nerf during tier and step by step nerf during tier. If think the best middle ground is the step by step nerf in DS.

    However much PR thinking it is in here and how much honesty and truth. It was a nice read which i hope will lead to a great next expansion!
    Last edited by Blackcurrant; 03-07-2012 at 05:42 PM.

  12. #32
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    With the pvp(defense) and pvp(attack) there may be less nerfing pve to balance pvp - they may be able to just buff/nerf the pvp(attack/defense) and leave primary stats alone.

  13. #33
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    I doubt that. The majority of Prot warrior PVP nerfs have had little to effect on our primary stats and how we scale with them.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    (*: Yes...the same as the previous tier's heroic...set bonuses and superior itemization can make them upgrades from heroic previous tier gear...or not, and that's cool too.)
    THIS! This is so correct it pushes being correct into some new epoch of correctness there isn't a word for it. Basically Ion - I agree with your post 100%. Everything suggested there is either similar to, or exactly the same as, suggestions I've made on the official forums.

    If they pursued this ilvl model, there'd be a whole lot less bitching about "raid tiers becoming obsolete" and the game would feel like less of a perpetual grind, especially for those folks who'd gone to the trouble of gearing through heroic modes.

    Having said that - I still don't understand why they stopped pursuing the Ulduar model of hardmodes which rewarded extra loot and achievements. That always seemed like such an elegant solution to me, of giving the players the option to voluntary change the mechanics of a fight in order to have a greater challenge that in turn gave better rewards.

    *edit*

    I'll go one further.

    This problem with ilvls started in TBC, when Blizz made the frankly ridiculous decision of making green drops from HP a higher ilvl than BWL loot (ignoring Naxx for the purposes of this, because most didn't make it that far). Hell, making the ilvl of green drops in TBC better than MC loot was even worse, because the whole flow of gear went out of the window.

    Personally, I'd like to see a system where, from one expansion to the next, if you're in raid gear from the last tier of content then your next upgrades really shouldn't be coming any earlier than the max level dungeons from the next tier of content. Replacing your raid gear with crappy blue drops (or even greens) from quests and instances is just annoying. I'd actually like to enjoy the experience of levelling in my raid gear, rather than sighing sadly that a drop from "Ravenous Marsh Ferret" is an upgrade.

    I'm entirely in favour of new expansion drops and content allowing new players and non-raiders to catch up with raiders in gear for the first tier of raid content in a new expansion. But, resetting the bar to zero for EVERYONE with overinflated ilvls on green/blue loot makes no sense to me, never has.

    I can understand that Blizz wants there to be some sort of time lag to stop people burning through content too fast, but if that is a problem JUST GATE or LOCK the goddam content rather than have everyone jumping through some farcical loot acquisition process every goddam time. I'd rather run out of things to do and take the rest of the week off to do other things than grind dungeons for loot...................again. Be more original please Blizz.
    Last edited by Libellus; 03-08-2012 at 02:45 AM.

  15. #35
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    The irony of hard dungeons at the start and the gear flux now: people expect to blow through it.
    If you do a random Dungeon that isn't Hour of Twilight, you see 97% alts that just want to gear up to get into the epic drop instances. And then you get a fight like first boss in Grim Batol where not doing the tactics wipes you because the boss is doing 300% extra damage and everyone blames the tank for it.In my last 4 runs there I've attempted that boss about 10 times, yet I wasn't able to complete the instance a single time because people just don't CARE about it anymore, they expect heroics to be as easy as in 3.3
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airowird View Post
    The irony of hard dungeons at the start and the gear flux now: people expect to blow through it.
    If you do a random Dungeon that isn't Hour of Twilight, you see 97% alts that just want to gear up to get into the epic drop instances. And then you get a fight like first boss in Grim Batol where not doing the tactics wipes you because the boss is doing 300% extra damage and everyone blames the tank for it.In my last 4 runs there I've attempted that boss about 10 times, yet I wasn't able to complete the instance a single time because people just don't CARE about it anymore, they expect heroics to be as easy as in 3.3
    I agree. My first Horde 85, a DK tank, dinged about a month ago and I have yet to bring her into a Cata heroic because of this. My last 85 was a Rogue (just as 4.3 hit she dinged) and I recall bringing her into Cata heroics and it was pure hell. No one wanted to cc, no one understood the mechanics, it was trying to zerg in quest blues/greens (Throne of Tides - "you mean you need to keep the healers cc'd?"). ZA was far worse. I did learn that there are new players out there and that they don't like to listen to advice. I may just let the DK sit until MoP and quest her up to 90 then go from there - actually, nah, I'm not that patient.

    Unless, you know what you're doing the lower level dungeons don't teach players crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    My last 85 was a Rogue (just as 4.3 hit she dinged) and I recall bringing her into Cata heroics and it was pure hell. No one wanted to cc, no one understood the mechanics, it was trying to zerg in quest blues/greens (Throne of Tides - "you mean you need to keep the healers cc'd?"). ZA was far worse. I did learn that there are new players out there and that they don't like to listen to advice. I may just let the DK sit until MoP and quest her up to 90 then go from there - actually, nah, I'm not that patient.
    Due to this reason it's good that GC acknowledges that there are both the playerbase that want fast VP and not really much else, and also there are those that enjoy a challenge and don't mind spend some time working to sole that.

    It's important here to funnel each crowd to the right place. I really hope Blizzard will manage to solve this problem now when it's said that neither easy mode wotlk or harder early cata was the right solution.

    For me i hope i can avoid the LFD and LFR progression path totally if i so choose. And at the same time the VP hunter can avoid the other alternative.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Unless, you know what you're doing the lower level dungeons don't teach players crap.
    This is an unfortunate consequence of how the gaming market, not just that of MMOs, has changed over the years. People coming to WoW back in 2005 from other MMOs or from a history of playing CRPGs, were the kind of player who'd seek to optimise their character's performance by using the full set of skills. By experimenting to see what worked.

    The kind of player, say perhaps playing a Rogue, who confronted a situation solo where they faced multiple mobs where one was a healer, would almost definitely make use of CC to help make the combat easier. They wouldn't need to be guided through that process or have a tutorial of some kind. They'd just sort it out for themselves.

    I'm doubtful now as to whether most new players would do that. They'd just charge in, pew everything, and then wonder why they died or why the mobs didn't die. They'd either try again and fail until they quit, got lucky or for the problem to be "fixed" by Blizzard in some way. These players are used to games explaining to them how things work and presenting scenarios where they HAVE to use mechanics in order to progress (albeit the use of mechanic is typically obvious). After that, progression in the game is reliant on said player remembering to use said mechanic.

    This is something that WoW, and other modern MMOs, desperately need if the majority of players are to make use of the full feature set. Blizz can no longer expect the rest of the community to be "voluntary teachers" because the pupils are not lisetning, but they would probably listen to Blizz. It is entirely within Blizz's gift to engineer scenarios for players (at all levels) to encounter events where they have to use abilities and where Blizz can talk them through it. Because I'm increasingly convinced this is the only way people will learn.

    It is one of the worries I have about SWTOR as it is at present. Playing the game solo, there are stages of your class quest which are decidedly more challenging than anything found in WoW's solo content at present. You have to make use of your characters full tool set in order to proceed without difficulty. However, the game doesn't tell you much beyond the basics, so I think there is a real risk of nerfing in the future, because newer players simply won't L2P when faced with adversity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I doubt that. The majority of Prot warrior PVP nerfs have had little to effect on our primary stats and how we scale with them.
    That's just Prot Warriors; I'm hoping that adjusting pvp(attack/defense) takes the place of the constant buff/nerf to abilities like "increase Cobra shot by 2%"; "nerf fireball by 5%", etc. I said primary stats but should have said abilities.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    125
    2) Stop having HUGE stat increases between raiding tiers. Yes, you have gone from level 70 to 80. The problem is, between gear sets at level 80 between various tiers, your gear has increased in a way that is like having another "hidden" ten levels. Cata exacerbated this. You went up only 5 character levels..... but you have 10 to 15 levels worth of stat growth from tier gear improvements.
    This is one point I strongly disagree with. The obvious alternative to exponential scaling is linear scaling (a power series would be possible, but highly unlikely). [/quote]

    Linear scaling means that every tier, you'd gain a flat value. In Vanilla, perhaps you'd go from 200 DPS in full Molten Core gear, to 250 DPS in full Blackwing Lair gear, to 300 DPS in full AQ and early naxx gear and so on. To be strictly linear, this would then have resulted in your going from 1000 DPS in l70 blues, to 1050 DPS in Kara epics, and so on.

    Look forward to going from 15k DPS in level 85 blues to...15.05k in T11 epics?

    Alternatively, you could have linear scaling within an expansion, but at a different rate for each - i.e. Vanilla stepped in 50s, TBC in 200s, Wrath in 1000s, and Cata in 10,000s (roughly). This is macroscopic exponential scaling. Previous expansion stuff would continue to get easier at something like the present rate, while current expansion stuff would get easier at an increasingly reduced rate towards the end of the expansion.

    That I can see being a better solution - but it only addresses half of the problem. It also has significant anomalies whereby older items that are better than they "should" be remain better for longer. Who here can remember the Dragonspine Trophy? Correct me if I recall incorrectly (never played a melee DPS), but that thing was best in slot up until the point you killed (and won the trinket from) M'uruin Sunwell. Admittedly, the Darkmoon Cards have been similar in Wrath and Cataclysm, but as non-raiding items, they fall in a different category. Hitting Maulgar and Gruul every week for getting on for two years seemed to irritate quite a lot of my more (raiding) advanced friends at the time. People speak of raiding tiers not becoming obselete with a tear in their eye - but I urge you to consider the proposition rationally; it was not entirely a golden age.

    Exponential scaling is something of an inevitability given the length of time this game has been being advanced for. Linear scaling would eventually result in either gear or leveling becoming utterly pointless.
    Official Dragon Wiggler of the Ashen Rose Conspiracy
    Nerf Paladins

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