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Thread: Block Changes in MoP

  1. #1
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    Block Changes in MoP

    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzard
    The chance to block will be handled by a separate combat roll for each attack that is not avoided. In other words, we first determine if an attack misses, or is dodged or parried. If it is not, then the attack has a chance to be blocked.
    MUAHAHA
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

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    How is this a good thing?

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    They are also adding DR to mastery
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

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    I was expecting that. but the change to being multiplicative is gonna be quite the change. I blame mages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I was expecting that. but the change to being multiplicative is gonna be quite the change. I blame mages.
    Luckly we can turn any class into our scape... sheep ;D
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

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    I dunno, I'm really looking at the mop changes and feeling more and more urg at them. The last thing I want to do is dump rage with shield block and get an avoidance streak or hit streak. Dev not being spammable and not being able to proc SnB, coupled with Rev being on a 9second CDand that its still a proc so SnB is now a proc based on a proc. Zerker Rage no longer granting extra rage, Spell reflection not giving any rage AND still being a 25second CD and Deep wounds ONLY proccing off devastate And TC it better damn roll. Concussion Blow being gone.

    I don't like the Mop Changes, I don't like that they ignored how crap Rev was for the entire expansion, and i'm really starting to feel the weakness of Warrior tanks in DS. Rage is a pretty poor resource to manage at the best of times, having empty GCDs because our abilites are on CD and having other empty GCds becuase we're resource starved feel uncomfortable I'm not getting rage from blocks or damage taken so its all going to come in predictable leading to a mentality of sitting just under the cap till we have an open GCD and then dumping some.

    BLEEEEEEEEEEEEEERG!
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 03-01-2012 at 11:05 PM.

  7. #7
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    I object!

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    I really dislike Blizzard fixation on homogenizing everything. I want classes to have flavours and to give options. Its ok if they are a little unbalanced here and there as long as they are different. Its not fun to have 5 tanking classes who all do the same things under different spell names. Only way they could make it fun is to raise the skill cap. But we all know its not going to happen.

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    I'm not sure I really like this change, we'll probably end up stacking stamina in the end anyway (like in Wrath, and right now). I see that there are some situations where block tanks are at a serious disadvantage (unblockable burst akin to Focused Assault), but you could simply make those things blockable instead of rebalancing for the assumption that you are not going to be block-capped.

    While I will be able to make an attack a guaranteed block with ShoR (I'm guessing even with a 1 HoPo attack), I'm wondering whether, now that threat is a total non-issue (and if it is I can be fairly sure that it will be made to be so) I should just use a CS-ShoR-J-ShoR-CS-ShoR rotation to force pretty much every attack made against me a guaranteed block in a high damage phase (which would heavily devalue mastery as I am bypassing it completely).

    I'll reserve judgement until I actually see it in play in beta, but I am not entirely thrilled by the changes to blocking as it stands now.

  10. #10
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    The real crux: the changed Wrath block into Cata block (fix amount into percentage) for easier adjustments... and then they implemented fix absorb amounts for ferals and DK's... and it's like no dev saw it coming that those mistakes will lead again to some real disadvantage later on as it did on eg Anub heroic??? Come on Blizzard.

    Sadly right now i'm in the mood to cancel my subscription and move on, either to D3 or Guildwars and head back into MoP when it's out for a while and no total failure. Looking at Cata it feels like a big disappointment altogether, only thing noteworthy is the decent difficulty of heroic raiding content keeping me interested for some time - but outside of that? And there's nothing in MoP i'm looking forward similar to Tengenstein, meh.

  11. #11
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    I've only been able to play with some ideas in my head about the new Block mechanic, but here's some things that I immediately dislike:

    * Gaining more avoidance reduces the overall damage absorbed by blocks (DR)
    * On top of that, the block chance will be on a DR system, making higher levels of rating be completely useless
    * For a Warrior, crit blocks will now be a 3-roll system (don't avoid, block & crit block rolls) making it an extremely low chance and making Mastery even less valuable for Warriors.
    * With the current Masteries, Paladins & Warriors get less damage reduction per mastery, while DKs & Druids get more . Even worse, due to their Mastery designs, DK/Druids will actually have increasing returns on Mastery and gear scaling/progress in general (get more abosrb from more damage taken or more armor from a higher base armor pool), making them either useless for starting raids, or OP for expansion endings.
    * As avoidance & block will be 'fighting' over combat table coverage, there will be breakpoints where you suddenly want to reforge from one side to the other, creating a larger gap between 'mathy' tanks such as ... well us, and less involved tanks when it comes to gearing efficiency.

    Overall, I think the DR on Mastery will have to be scratched, and for Warriors crit block rolls will have to be alongside normal block roll to be anywhere near competitive.
    If I can get any math done this weekend, I'll see how efficient Mastery is going to end up as, I'm guessing it'll be roughly cut in half for Warriors and roughly quarter down for Paladins.
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  12. #12
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    Overall, I think the DR on Mastery will have to be scratched, and for Warriors crit block rolls will have to be alongside normal block roll to be anywhere near competitive.
    The DR on blocking is something that I believe (and hope) will not make it through beta testing. In my opinion it adds a layer of complexity that Blizzard was moving away from. It is hard enough teaching people about simply adding up their avoidance and block chances, now we get to explain how 40% block isn't actually the same as "40% of the time, you will block" but more like "40% of the time that you do not avoid the attack, you will block". And then we have to emphasize that the next point of mastery won't provide the same benefit as the point before.

    Surely this will simply lead to people stacking stamina when they hit a certain block and avoidance percentage, as the overall damage reduction per stat point won't be "worth it", just like right now it is better to add 900 stamina to add another 16k life rather than pile on 600 dodge and parry rating for another ~4% avoidance
    Last edited by Fetzie; 03-02-2012 at 07:12 AM.

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    I suppose this means that Mastery will be good all the way up to 100% block, whereas the amount of mastery you wanted on the single roll system varied with how much avoidance you had. Also means it's going to be very hard to get complete combat table coverage, unless they increase the % of block you get from the equivalent mastery rating.
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  14. #14
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    But depending on the harshness of the DR, the relative value of Mastery; the point at which it is no longer worth stacking because of the amount of rating you need for the next percentage is so high, will end up being lower because you simply cannot push your block chance high enough. A bit like they changed Armor in 4.0. Overnight it went from being the best stat for reducing incoming physical damage that you wanted to stack, to being something that you had, but wasn't really worth stacking because of the immense amounts of rating required to make a noticeable difference.

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    They are either going to have to undo all the buffs to dk's and druids or severely buff block in order to keep tanks on par. As it is, currently druids and dk's are a far better option for almost every boss.

    I will say that that pretty much everyone was crying for the two roll system when cata launched so I'm kinda surprised nobody is excited to see it. But yeah I hope the DR gets dropped from block, or the base block / mastery scaling drastically increases. Then again their is always rerolling monk!

  16. #16
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    The way I read it, we're not going to get full CTC in Mists because "they don't expect warriors and paladins to get block capped". Execpt for maybe sometimes with trinket procs, acording to Blizz; so there will always be a chance that damage that's not avoided will not be blocked.

  17. #17
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    Hmm. So let's see. If you had 15% parry, 15% dodge, and 5% miss, let's see how much block % you would need to equal the parry %.

    Block removes 30% of the damage. I'll leave crit block out of it for the moment, since that complicates things a lot. That means that for the same damage reduction, you would need an overall (whole combat table) 0.15/0.3=50% block chance in order to equal 15% parry. But because you only roll for block after the 35% avoidance fails, it's actually more. 0.5/0.65= 77%. So you would need 77% block in order to equal 15% parry. This number would increase as you gain more avoidance, also.

    That means that in order for block to be a stat worth having, block rating would have to get you 0.77/0.15=5.13 times as much block % as parry rating gives parry %. That's at 35% avoidance. The number would get even worse as avoidance increases.

    Did I do that math wrong?
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
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  18. #18
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    Who was crying for a 2 roll system?

    But ya, this basically makes getting block capped statistically impossible. QUICK! TO THE UNHITTABLE SIMULATORS!!!

    I think I am going to graph this out... or make a spreadsheet or something... afk while I fight with excel.
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  19. #19
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    With the changes to SB and SotR it sounds like you will want to be keeping almost a 100% uptime on those abilities. And with you proc'ing a 100% block, block will become useless as it stands. Why bother stacking mastery when you are already going to block 3/4 of all incoming attacks on player skill alone?
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  20. #20
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    The 2 roll system just seems rather clunky, but it could be becuase GC said a while back that there was no good way to limit mastery and that diminishing returns for mastery wouldn't really work in Cata. So enter the 2 roll system and now diminishing returns for mastery suddenly work. Altough, it's not really diminishing returns as mastery will never regress, it just won't build as fast.

    I think what's happened is that mastery is a stat they love, but that in terms of block was too good so they had to find a way to effectively limit it. I also seem to think they don't like when you can gimp thier mechanics i.e. full CTC; they want you to have a chance to get spanked every now and then.

    So we're back to WoLK (as someone pointed out) stack stam cause that 200k -0 hit is just around the corner. Or just let DK's tank 'cause they get a nice blood shield and mastery remains a more is better stat for them.

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