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Thread: Wiping on Madness part deux

  1. #1
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    Wiping on Madness part deux

    There's a pretty obvious underlying answer here. I have been running with a guild (not my guild, I'm a casual in my guild) every week in 10 man and since I've joined their crew I've helped win them some normal mode progression as well has helping to move things along (you know those times when everyone stands around doing nothing between attempts? yeah). As a result they've been generous, as well as the RNG, with giving me loot without requiring me to join them, which is pretty cool.

    The problem: They're mostly clueless. I tank with as a warrior with a paladin from their guild who is the "MT". The first 3 fights after Morchok, I DPS. His offspec is holy, but I have never once seen him heal. He has two pieces of T13 and appears to have only run LFR maybe once, since all he has is that crap trinket from Spine. His gear is poorly gemmed and reforged, as well.

    Anyway, the setup for madness is this. Warrior/Pally tank, Shaman/Druid/DPriest heals, Elemental, Lock, Fire mage, Hunter, Rogue DPS.

    The rogue and hunter consistently pull 45-50k on this fight, the lock is always in 3rd place, with the mage and shaman coming in at best around 34-37k.

    Healers are going oom, always at some point during the fight, and usually someone will die and need our one BRez.

    I know that we need to be single tanking, dual healing, but with our setup I don't see it happening. There's not enough DPS, plain and simple. If we let the pally tank it (My arms spec has decent gear), we lose a raid cooldown in the form of my 4pc. If I tank, the paladin has a holy offspec and has probably never healed a raid in his life. I do know the priest is shadow-capable but I don't recall how much DPS he can do. These guys are so confident that they're going to nail the fight every week and every week as they're saying this in vent I'm thinking to myself, "no, not going to happen." Which is a little frustrating.

    EDIT: Armories
    Mine: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...usteros/simple
    Pally: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...onzou/advanced

    I've told him how to fix his gemming and reforging (read: HELM) to eeek out more mastery, but he smiled and nodded and did nothing with it. I think the underlying issue is more this pally tank and the general blind eye than anything else. I don't know that the 5% nerf is going to help this group or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  2. #2
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    I know that we need to be single tanking, dual healing
    I know the forums are full of people saying 1 tank / 2 heal, but that is far from the only way to do this fight. We did it with 2 tanks / 3 healers to begin, and only recently switched to 2 tanks / 2 healers as we geared up. I have no real intention of switching to 1+2, I see it as a 'zerg strat' that lacks control. If you go for 2+3 then you have to actually handle the mechanics a lot better. That means coping with the fact that elementium bolts will land while the corruption is still slapping the platform: you will have to ensure that appropriate raid cooldowns are planned, that people are intelligently positioned (away from the bolt landing spot and away from one another before tentacle slaps), that you have discipline in your final phase dps (holding at 11% until after the 2nd round of terrors are dead).

    As to your raid comp issues, maybe you should discuss whether the paly has considered a ret offspec? In 10 man raids, it's very rare that you decide "I want less tanks and more healers for this". Much more common to say "tank switch to dps". That said, if you look forward to heroic progression, you might well find that you want an arms warrior for fights like yorsahj and hagara anyway, so perhaps you need to find a way to encourage him to skill up. I have to wonder how well 'the tank from the other guild telling me how to play' goes down - you might want to try an indirect way to express that there is room for him to improve.

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    I'd probably be content with trying 1 tank 3 heals (because our DPS needs to go up significantly) but again...it's down to the pally. He doesn't care enough and it's obvious. I think I'm going to have to end up ditching them at some point because if by some miracle we manage to down DW, without some serious overhauling of more than one player, Morchok H might be the ending point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    We do 2 tank, 3 heal and our dps is not much above yours;it's probably on par or little lower. Our set up is DK/Warrior tanks; Pally (me) and 2 Shammy heals; warrior, SPriest, Hunter, Ret Pally, Rogue. We go from Green, then two platforms left, the one right, then two right (don't recall the colors).

    First two platforms are cake. Healers need to be smart with mana. I find using mana regen cooldowns early in fight lets you get them back up multiple times. Naturally, the raid should be mindful of the crashes (forget what their called) and be in a line across to minimize multi target damage. That helps the healers a lot. The Shammy should be dropping Mana Tide every time it's up - especially when you hit a new platform. There's really no healing on platform change until mutated comes up. The healers should top off the tank right after impale - I find there's a delay between the impale and the damage, you need to start casting once impale hits.

    On the third platform, I Hand of Sac the tank just before the impale (and Divine Protection my self) your Disc priest can Pain Suppression him - I do the same on the 4th platform. For some reason those two impale (3 and 4) are big damage.

    4th Platform is the bitch, the bolt is going to hit then it's intense healing and quick dps to stop the AoE pulse. Just before the bolt hits healers pop raid cooldowns and the raid pops personal protection cooldowns - the Shammy's alternate their Spirit Links, I pop Aura mastery - your crew can Spirit Link, P:Word Barrier and do whatever it is Druids do (only healing class I don't play);

    After Mutated is down, then it's timing. Let the bloods spawn and kill them first, then onto the wing at 75% (I think) Blisterings come out - single target down: at 25% more blisterings; single target down. The raid has to be fast on the Bloods and make sure not to pull Bloods and blisterings at the same time.

    Last platform is all about timing. Burn boss, kill adds, then burn boss to 11% and stop; then burn next set of adds, then finish boss. People need to press their green button when they have about 3 secs left on Sharpnel (at least that's when I try to do it). And by the end I'm pretty much on mana fumes.

    The whole fight really comes down to the 4th platform and the final phase. As long as the other three bolts are dying in the air and the raid isn't taking unnecessary damage from crashes, the healing is not that bad.

    Your Pally does have some gemming issues, missing enchants, etc - you should encourage him to read Fetzie's guide. The real kicker is foregoing a Mastery socket bonus; Dude we gotta have a talk.
    Last edited by Theotherone; 01-25-2012 at 07:58 AM.

  5. #5
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    What you guys are saying does make sense, there's a few things we fall short on- Bloods. I pull them all instantly (warrior aoe ftw) and drop them smack on the arm/wing for aoe, normally we end up with 1-3 that regen on the first and second platforms, I've seen more on subsequent. By the way, we're going green, red, yellow, blue. Some have brought up doing a different order but from my standpoint DPS is such an issue that we can't afford to. Blistering Tentacles are kicking us in the teeth because they're not being killed fast enough on yellow and blue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  6. #6
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    My guild tired 2 helaing it. we wipe on about 4million health.the raid wide damage at that poitnt just becomes unhealable. if you're going to 2 heal it your healers need to be able to pull about 23k HPS sustained each over the 15 minute fight. this week we had our priest fail to show up (grr) but one of our old mages reactivated his account, he's was in a mix of FL/FL HC gear. so our lockjumped on her druid and healed. Our enh shammy and Suerv hunter pulled 45k, or MM hunter pulled 42k and our mages pulled 34 and 32k. The tanks pulled 22k and 21k. We scraped the enrage by 3 seconds.

    So your DPS are pulling the numbers. at what point are you wiping? I wouldn;t worry too much about your other tank, Yes he's fail. but on the plus side madness isn't really punishing on the tanks skill; threats a joke. and we really don't need to do much except tank an add on each platform and use CDs. DPS need to put the DPS on the right things at the right time. and healers need to heal the insane raid damage that goes round later on. if your wiping its either lack of HPS, lack of CD use, or lack of DPS in the right places.

    Got a log?

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    That's the platform order we use, we tried some others but settled on that one. Bloods regening on first or second platforms is not a good sign. The raid needs to be told to kill Bloods fast and leave the wing alone, makes life so much easier. We have not run across an issue with Blisterings on Yellow so never really thought about it; Blue yes it took people a few tries to get the kill order pounded into their heads.

    This is the log from our 1st DW kill, our dps is not that far from yours, in fact I think we're lower - so it's not so much a dps issue as maybe a dps the correct thing issue:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r.../?s=676&e=1561

    Ignore the log from last night if you poke around, H Morchok was a disaster.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    What you guys are saying does make sense, there's a few things we fall short on- Bloods. I pull them all instantly (warrior aoe ftw) and drop them smack on the arm/wing for aoe, normally we end up with 1-3 that regen on the first and second platforms, I've seen more on subsequent. By the way, we're going green, red, yellow, blue. Some have brought up doing a different order but from my standpoint DPS is such an issue that we can't afford to. Blistering Tentacles are kicking us in the teeth because they're not being killed fast enough on yellow and blue.
    I prefer Green Yellow Red Blue, as then you only have to handle Blistering Tentacles on one platform and you keep the +20% health until the last platform which helps impales (esp. for warriors). The downside with GYRB is that you have 2 unslowed bolts instead of 1, which you'll want coordinated raid cooldowns to handle. Both are certainly viable options of course.

    As for bloods - before we outgeared it, I used to call out for a timed burst of AOE to start after they'd done their first regen. i.e. target the first one to spawn, watch it's energy bar, count in 3-2-1 as it's energy reaches 100 and then everyone does a burst of AOE. (That's also how you handle the achievement where you start with blue btw). There are several weapons and trinkets which make all this a lot easier though, so now we just faceroll AOE them.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    My guild tired 2 helaing it. we wipe on about 4million health.the raid wide damage at that poitnt just becomes unhealable. if you're going to 2 heal it your healers need to be able to pull about 23k HPS sustained each over the 15 minute fight. this week we had our priest fail to show up (grr) but one of our old mages reactivated his account, he's was in a mix of FL/FL HC gear. so our lockjumped on her druid and healed. Our enh shammy and Suerv hunter pulled 45k, or MM hunter pulled 42k and our mages pulled 34 and 32k. The tanks pulled 22k and 21k. We scraped the enrage by 3 seconds.

    So your DPS are pulling the numbers. at what point are you wiping? I wouldn;t worry too much about your other tank, Yes he's fail. but on the plus side madness isn't really punishing on the tanks skill; threats a joke. and we really don't need to do much except tank an add on each platform and use CDs. DPS need to put the DPS on the right things at the right time. and healers need to heal the insane raid damage that goes round later on. if your wiping its either lack of HPS, lack of CD use, or lack of DPS in the right places.

    Got a log?
    No I don't have a log unfortunately. How are pally tanks vs warriors, dps-wise? Because he's doing about 10k less than I am on any given encounter, like he's barely holding on just to keep aggro. It's interesting because sometimes he almost pulls off me even though I'm nearly doubling dps. Thank god for vig.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  10. #10
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    A pally tank should out slightly out dps you assuming gear and skill similarities. If he's 10k behind you he is dong something seriously wrong since you should be doing around close to 15k. he cannot pull off you if he's doing a third of your DPS than you unless some sort of non-dps factor is messing with threst (HoSalv, Intervene, Tricks, etc)as threat scales almost linearly with DPS. Unless you can get us a parse of his ability usage we can't tell you how he's getting it wrong. b ut he certainly is getting it wrong if he's 10k dps behind you.

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    Is he using HoR a lot single target? That is a waste. Also he's Glyphed into WoG is he wasting Holy Power on that and not using Shield of the Righteous every time he has full HP?

  12. #12
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    Update: I joined the nub guild I was running with. Last night we finally killed madness. I take full credit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    Update: I joined the nub guild I was running with. Last night we finally killed madness. I take full credit.
    '

    /cheer !!
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

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    Gratz.

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