Reply With QuoteCompared with T10 where you had roughly that many viable options in every slot (and sometimes more) ... this is a huge step down from where we came from.Originally Posted by fengosa
I really think you're overstating the importance of having 13 ilvl on a wand. It shouldn't be a big deal in the grand scheme of things.
Compared with T10 where you had roughly that many viable options in every slot (and sometimes more) ... this is a huge step down from where we came from.
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I was looking at some items at lunch time and as someone pointed out, the two tiers of raiding along with the heroic version of ICC 10 really made for some nice loot choices at ilvl 264. Take tank rings for example there were 5 to choose from at 264; now at 397 we have 2 - the vendor and the drop.
Some things are the same like shields there were always a tank and Sprit shield around in each ilvl - but tank legs, at 397 you've got tier that's it; but at 264 you had two choices plus your tier piece.
It just feels like a lot less choice and as for crafted stuff we've seen a Mail LW pattern drop and one cloth pattern drop - we're finding the drop rate very low on the patterns.
At 397 ilevel and below you are correct, but many of us have started hardmodes and looking at 410 ilevel there are two choices for shoulders and exactly one choice for every slot, and for pretty much all classes there are no 410 options for neck, cloak and range.
Firelands didn't have Heroic-level belt or bracers for Elemental/Restoration Shamans iirc. That's certainly a big enough difference! In T11 you had exactly one bracer option (from Chimearon), and a single shield option (which had crit, the least favored stat for Elemental), my BiS back then was often nothing more than "this item is the ilvl xxx item for that slot, so take it".
Where were the days of Sunwell where you could take a drop and trade it for something else at a vendor? (e.g. Use an agi mail belt to buy a caster one, single drop, all mail users have a shot! Basicly similar to tier tokens) It would reduce the RNGfest in 10man guilds and reduces the chances on 'useless' drops (I got those Chim bracers 3 times simply because I was the only Sham in the group)
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Pretty sure there were 391 mail int bracers (I looked, there were, off Rhyolith...which makes sense since those were probably the only damn thing I looted off that assbag), but that's really beside the point.
The point of the matter is twofold:
1) there isn't any consistency in drops
2) there isn't much, if any, diversity in drops
There are no 410 relics (meaning shaman, druids, paladins and DKs have no 410 options for that slot), but there are 410 options for rogues (the thrown weapon off of Morchok) and casters (the wand off of Zon'ozz which has neither hit nor spirit, making it useful to all clothies of every spec). Hunters, of course, have an option off of Madness in both the ranged and melee weapon slots. So 5 classes get 410+ options, the remaining 5 do not.
Similarly, there are two 410 agility rings, but one has expertise (leaving hunters out), 3 410 int rings (1 with spirit, 1 with hit and one with neither) covering all casters of all types and 3 strength rings (one tanking, one dps and one that could be used for either). So of all the classes and specs only hunters don't get two 410 rings.
They managed to cover trinkets pretty well (having a lot of options, 15 total 410 or 416 trinkets), and there are no cloaks of any kind at the 410 level, but necks are another place where they dropped the ball. There is a spirit/int neck off of Morchok and nothing else.
Inside armor types is even more weird (discounting tier pieces):
Tanking Plate
4 pieces, 410 Shoulders, Belt, Boots and Bracers
DPS Plate
4 pieces, 403/416 Shoulders, 410 Belt, Boots and Bracers
Int Plate
4 pieces, 403/416 Gloves, 410 Belt, Boots and Bracers
Agi Mail
4 pieces, 410 Gloves, Belt, Boots and Bracers
Int Mail
5 pieces, 403/416 Belt, 410 Shoulders, Belt, Boots and Bracers
Agi Leather
5 pieces, 403/416 Boots, 410 Shoulders, Belt, Boots and Bracers
Int Leather
3 pieces, 410 Belt, Boots and Bracers (no offset pieces)
DPS Caster (has hit)
None
Priest Cloth (has spirit)
1 piece, 410 Chest
Either Cloth (has neither)
5 pieces, 403/416 Gloves, 410 Shoulders, Belt, Boots and Bracers
So everyone has a 410 option for belt, boots and bracers. Ferals, rogues, Ele and resto shaman have two options for one of those slots (a 403/416 and a 410). Most classes have at least one offset option to replace tier with...resto and balance druids being the exception there. Of course that's made up for by priests who have a shocking 3 offset options and locks and mages have two.
So. Most people who have a legendary weapon (rogues, locks, priests, mages and ele shaman) have options for a 416 piece somewhere in their set (of course, balance druids don't). Of the dps classes only hunters, enhance shaman and moonkin have no 416 options at all and neither do plate tanks.
There is a stat-stacking 416 trinket for each type of player and at least one 410 option for each type (though it's worth noting that druid tanks can viably use dual 416 trinkets and no other tank can, in addition to their 416 boots; also worth noting that neither of the 410 tanking options have mastery on them, only stam).
So there's a definite diversity problem as well.
Priests are the clear winners this tier with all sorts of variety thrown at them (3 offset choices at 410+, a 410 neck, 2 (healing) or 3 (shadow) 410+ trinkets and 2 (healing) or 3 (shadow) 410 rings). Agi mail users are pretty low on the totem pole (OOOOOOH SHAMAN JOKE), as are int leather users (though at least they get a 410 neck) and plate tanks.
There's just not a whole lot of gear that's even available at the 410+ level...mostly because there's only 8 bosses. Tier 6 had 14 bosses (plus another 6 in Sunwell), Tier 10 had 12 (plus one more in Ruby Sanctum) and T13 has....8. T6/6.5 had almost as many bosses as all of Cataclysm (20 in T6 vs 28 in Cata).
It doesn't help that nowadays ilvl is king, either. Primary Stats or Bust.
I have a problem with the spine loottable just feels such a waste when the tanktrinket drops for the millionth time while its only good for our bear. There is always a chance for bad Rng but I feel like its really bad on spine cause every dps has it's BiS trinket there while there is a really big chance the tanktrinket, leather boots, mail belt or plate hands will go to waste.
Like I said, if they had a item conversion vendor in the game (inside Wyrmrest Temple in the Dragon Soul instance? would only take you 1 boss to get there and you can always go back), they could easily add enough options for any class.
Imho Firelands looting tables were still ok-ish, but Dragon Soul feels just like a rush job sometimes (not just the loot, everything).
Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
They could have had a conversion thing like in Sunwell, 1 essence of destruction plus the corresponding item for "small" items (rings, bracers, belts, boots), 2 essences for "big" items like chest, legs, trinkets etc.
Even a heroic upgrade for certain items, like we had in FL, that don't drop at 410 ilvl, like cloaks as one example, would have been good. Pretty simple solution to fill out the loot table.
Basicly, Sunwell/Firelands loot tables/system win when it comes to gear diversity
Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
It was just one example, the same could be said for something like hunter shoulders, either tier or end boss drop. I know I had the troll shoulders until I won the tier in LFR.
One thing they mentioned for MoP was upgrading gear using Valor Point. I got the impression it would be some sort of Ilevel increase in existing gear that you could buy with Valor points.
It sounds interesting, and perhaps a reason to log outside of raid and grind gear improvements. They could also go back to a system of letting gear nerf instances. Heroic drops in 10 man would less of an issue.
same loot table for 25 and 10 was incredibly stupid
it completely destroys raiding incentive for 25m
and blizz started cata saying 25s will be getting more drops and more VP
well they lied 5:2 is the same dam ratio and whats the point of getting more VP if you cap weekly VP gains anyways ?
the loot ratio should have been at least 6:2 or 7:2
VP should have been
70 x 7 dungeon daily + 70 x # of bosses for 10 man
70 x 7 dungeon daily + 100 x # of bosses for 25
WITH the cap being at the 25m raid level
Why, exactly?
because theres more loot competition therefore there should be more loot and vp given out
25 man is harder to set up with more stricter positioning requirement
why should 10 man give out equal loot ratio while being easier to set up, manage ?
You get the same amount of loot per person. It is called "fairness".
Not going to go into 10vs25, that'll just get this thread locked.
If there is absolutely no incentive to raid 25 man, why do people still do it?
Sorry, no. <blah blah 10 vs 25 man debate>
Sorry you feel entitled to more gear but you're not. Suck it up, slappy.
Not Really. 1 item of Tier Loot per 10 players in 10 man. 1 item of Tier Loot per 12.5 in 25 man. That's called "unfairness". Ofc in 25 we get more DE Fodder, great.You get the same amount of loot per person. It is called "fairness".
Not going to go into 10vs25, that'll just get this thread locked.
That's the point, 25 man raiding is almost dead. Blizzard have stated that 25 man raiding is 'More Epic' but that alone is not enough to keep it going. They've also said 10 man is 'Easier'. Generally people prefer 'Easier' over 'More Epic'.If there is absolutely no incentive to raid 25 man, why do people still do it?
There should be 3 tiertokens dropping in 25man instead of 2 just like in firelands. With a large and unbalanced roster, not many locks/paladins/priests and a lot of warriors/hunters/shammies, and a really crappy droprate on said tokens it's just a massive headache.
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