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Thread: Dragonsoulwell Radiance

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    No, they're not right, at all. That's not how progression works. 1st) Progression kills are also an effect of what other guilds are doing. In a race to server first, or world 100th, whatever it is, people at the high end of progression want to rank high. Turning off the buff intentionally nerfs them against what their competitors are doing, and just makes them look bad. This also affects recruitment where people look at their guild and go "lololol 4/8 HM with 10% nerf, what n00bs!"

    That and finding 24 other people that also don't want the debuff is neigh impossible. By not turning the buff on you are intentionally nerfing yourself 10% compared to the other people on the same content with no increase in reward. When you're talking about raiders that will min max their toons to output 1% more DPS, you really think that they will want to just turn off a 10% buff?

    The logic is completely flawed. Maybe once they've killed it with the debuff they'd try and go back and kill it without, but there's no marker or achievement for that.
    Maybe on recruitment I can see the point, but for server races, that boat has long left the dock; if the nerf was right after world firsts, then yeah; but at this point the content has been out a long time. The race is over, now it's just a matter of finishing.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Maybe on recruitment I can see the point, but for server races, that boat has long left the dock; if the nerf was right after world firsts, then yeah; but at this point the content has been out a long time. The race is over, now it's just a matter of finishing.
    That's not true for a LOT of servers. Arthas has zero 25 man guilds that have killed Madness of Deathwing, only 1 10 man guild has killed it. And Arthas is one of the higher pop servers.
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    That's not true for a LOT of servers. Arthas has zero 25 man guilds that have killed Madness of Deathwing, only 1 10 man guild has killed it. And Arthas is one of the higher pop servers.
    Bingo. On my server only 1 guild is 8/8 HC, the rest are all still scrambling to be 2nd. The truth is very few guilds are "done" at this point and are still actively racing each other and every time you lay down a nerf all of those guilds just got value taken away from their experience. Whether any of those 5-7 guilds "still in the mix" want to turn off the buff or not makes no difference ... none of them can.
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  4. #84
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    On mine out of the three 8/8 heroic guilds, two are 25 man (1st and 3rd) and one is 10 man, the one 7/8 hc guild is 25 man, then a couple of tens and 25s on 5-6/8 heroic. So forgive me for saying this, but on my server at least, 25 man raiding is not "dead" by any definition of the word.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    That's not true for a LOT of servers. Arthas has zero 25 man guilds that have killed Madness of Deathwing, only 1 10 man guild has killed it. And Arthas is one of the higher pop servers.
    I think Blizzard's view is that the top 100 race is long over, it ended around Februray 8th if Guildox is to be believed, so now it's a race to world, what, 600? That's not a race, that's not even playing for the consolation prize, that's Rocky "I just want to go the distance." So they are responding to the "we want a challenge crowd" and in context they are correct; "turn it off". I don't really believe the whole recruitment argument even enters their nerf equation nor, at this stage, server firsts.

    It all revolves around keeping people logging back on, it's not personal, it's business - it's how do we keep the most players happy and coming back for more.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    I think Blizzard's view is that the top 100 race is long over, it ended around Februray 8th if Guildox is to be believed, so now it's a race to world, what, 600? That's not a race, that's not even playing for the consolation prize, that's Rocky "I just want to go the distance." So they are responding to the "we want a challenge crowd" and in context they are correct; "turn it off". I don't really believe the whole recruitment argument even enters their nerf equation nor, at this stage, server firsts.

    It all revolves around keeping people logging back on, it's not personal, it's business - it's how do we keep the most players happy and coming back for more.
    200% agreed. Someone in my guild bitched about turning off the 5% they day it was implemented. We hadn't even started heroics. The race is long over. Our little band isn't competing for server first anything, at this point I'd be happy with completing the heroics before MoP.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    I think Blizzard's view is that the top 100 race is long over, it ended around Februray 8th if Guildox is to be believed, so now it's a race to world, what, 600? That's not a race, that's not even playing for the consolation prize, that's Rocky "I just want to go the distance." So they are responding to the "we want a challenge crowd" and in context they are correct; "turn it off". I don't really believe the whole recruitment argument even enters their nerf equation nor, at this stage, server firsts.

    It all revolves around keeping people logging back on, it's not personal, it's business - it's how do we keep the most players happy and coming back for more.
    But people AREN'T unhappy, the progression rate is still linear, there's no sign of plateaus at all. I agree that if progression rates level off and people are just bashing their heads against walls then absolutely up the nerf %, but at the point at which only 65 guilds in the US have killed HM MoD25, the race is still VERY much on, especially on a per-server basis. There are so many guilds world wide, especially since there are tons more 10 man guilds than 25 man guilds, that "world 600th" when you're talking about 10s and 25s and all realms/areas is really like US 100th.

    People often want to rank in their subgroup of raiding. 25 man raiders rarely care what 10 man guilds are at, and vice versa (at least in my experience). If you sort by region and raiding type, you'll see that there's still a LOT to be done, AND THERE ISN'T A PLATEAU.

    The nerf is way too soon.

    Edit: P.S. there's only 71 US 10 man guilds that hav ekilled H-MoD10
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    But people AREN'T unhappy, the progression rate is still linear, there's no sign of plateaus at all. I agree that if progression rates level off and people are just bashing their heads against walls then absolutely up the nerf %, but at the point at which only 65 guilds in the US have killed HM MoD25, the race is still VERY much on, especially on a per-server basis. There are so many guilds world wide, especially since there are tons more 10 man guilds than 25 man guilds, that "world 600th" when you're talking about 10s and 25s and all realms/areas is really like US 100th.

    People often want to rank in their subgroup of raiding. 25 man raiders rarely care what 10 man guilds are at, and vice versa (at least in my experience). If you sort by region and raiding type, you'll see that there's still a LOT to be done, AND THERE ISN'T A PLATEAU.

    The nerf is way too soon.

    Edit: P.S. there's only 71 US 10 man guilds that hav ekilled H-MoD10
    Good points all, I can't disagree with you; but I guess Blizzard doesn't see it that way. What I found interesting in the response to the MMO numbers is that Blizzard didn't say the numbers were wrong. In the past, Blizzard has said the MMO numbers were way off. If the MMo numbers are correct, then we dont' have a plateau yet and Blizzard is just nerfing 5% every 4 weeks. I agree that's way too soon.

    That said, in 2 weeks we'll be getting some info on MoP and that may show that they are counting backwards from MoP.

  9. #89
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    well at 5% per week we're talking 4 more months until 30%, then another month to have 30% out for a month, then a month of 5.0, then MoP release in 6 months. I guess that makes since via the timeline Lore talked about in the last legendary.


    Still though, why does it HAVE to go to 30% if people are clearing it easily at say... 20%?
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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    well at 5% per week we're talking 4 more months until 30%, then another month to have 30% out for a month, then a month of 5.0, then MoP release in 6 months. I guess that makes since via the timeline Lore talked about in the last legendary.


    Still though, why does it HAVE to go to 30% if people are clearing it easily at say... 20%?
    I can't speak for all the semi-hardcore casuals like me, but even I think 30% would be way over the top. Right now I know on normal that 10% will just make it a bigger joke-fest. Maybe just do it for the achievements we don't have. 30% on heroic would seem to drop it below pre-nerf normal difficulty IMHO.

  11. #91
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    Meh...I am just confused by what data they're looking at. I can't imagine that their internal trending data is SO different from what's publically availble that it goes from almost a straight flat line of progression to plateaus that are obvious enough to "require" a nerf.

    I can only assume that when they say "according to our data" they mean things like "we wanted to have X% of people done w/ALL content by MoP beta" and the current progression trend line means they won't hit that goal...so they nerf it not to stop plateaus, but to up the slope on the progression line past what it currently is to try to make that goal.

    That or they have a very "casual" idea of "plateau"...on hard modes it isn't unreasonable for it to take a couple weeks to get a kill...really. Two or three weeks is PERFECTLY FINE. It seems impossible to even TELL if people are plateauing in 4 weeks, much less plateauing to such a large extent that content needs to be nerfed...

  12. #92
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    Well one thing is certain ... blizzard is NOT making these decisions based on "available data". Honestly I've considered that excuse a smokescreen anyhow (it could mean the results were off by .005% or 500% ... they never specified so we have to trust OUR data) ... but regardless I know of nobody who was plateauing at the 5% nerf and I still know of nobody who is plateauing at the 10% nerf. The only plateaus in recent memory were heroic spine (which got a separate, deserved nerf) and heroic Ragnaros (that was ultimately the result of over-nerfing everything else).

    So obviously this isn't based on data about player frustration ... there's some other agenda at work here and it smells funny to me.
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  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    That or they have a very "casual" idea of "plateau"...on hard modes it isn't unreasonable for it to take a couple weeks to get a kill...really. Two or three weeks is PERFECTLY FINE. It seems impossible to even TELL if people are plateauing in 4 weeks, much less plateauing to such a large extent that content needs to be nerfed...
    Bingo. It is not unreasonable to expect a heroic mode boss to take 50 wipes to get down (we spent about that on each boss we've downed). A casual guild might go through those 50 wipes in a few weeks, a hardcore guild might go through it in a few nights ... but regardless heroics are called that for a reason ... they are supposed to be difficult.
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  14. #94
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    Well we're kind of stuck, but a lot of that is our own doing, we take a few cracks at a heroic boss then move on 'cause I really think people are Cata'd out - no one wants three raid nights (except me, I just love raiding), kind of disheartening. My first LK kill was working on that for 5 weeks (I know f'ing noob it took you 5 weeks to kill LK with I think it ended up being 15% or 20% nerf/buff, hey at least we killed it); there just doesn't seem to be that same we'll grind till we kill mentality in the game.

    I think Blizzard plays to the impatient crowd which is most of the world these day, if you don't kill the boss by your 10th wipe, then it's just too hard. I don't believe that, but that's society and they're scared of subscription loss.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    I think Blizzard is plays to the impatient crowd which is most of the world these day, if you don't kill the boss by your 10th wipe, then it's just too hard. I don't believe that, but that's society and they're scared of subscription loss.
    I think that's what I (and probably feralminded) worry about...I've mentioned it before, but when we killed h-Staghelm in sub-20 attempts we were EXTREMELY disappointed at how trivial it was. If that's going to become the norm rather than the exception (which it thankfully was in FL...most were at least a reasonable challenge)...how is that going to be fun for those of us who actually enjoy that sort of thing?

    If I can just show up and maybe press a few buttons in whatever order and kill the boss in 10 attempts...where's the FUN there? Bleh.

  16. #96
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    Well the downfall is that invalidates content FASTER ... meaning blizzard paints themselves into a corner. Part of the reason why the content seemed to last forever in BC was specifically because it was so hard. If a group is downing heroic everything in 2 months this only puts MORE pressure on blizzard to produce more content to prevent people from leaving due to lack of content. Ultimately it in fact behooves them to set the precedent that content WILL be hard, and WILL take time investment. I honestly do not understand their current strategy ... it seems that it can only end in ruin. The only way a game lasts with super shallow content is if it comes out at a very fast pace which is simply not a model Blizzard has ever proven to be able to maintain.

    This design direction seems highly illogical ... or at best only serving for very short-term gain ... so it makes me wonder what else is going on? Is the design team getting external pressure from above? Is someone new (and retarded) in charge of content? I really want to understand the "why" because it's obvious at this point there's more going on here than we're privvy to.
    Last edited by feralminded; 02-27-2012 at 12:26 PM.
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  17. #97
    Well the downfall is that invalidates content FASTER ... meaning blizzard paints themselves into a corner.
    See, this is what I don't get. Everyone seems to insist that it was Blizzard "making things harder" that caused a subsccription dip, but even GC (I think it was GC? I forgot. Some Blizzard guy, maybe the President.) said that they felt it was because people consumed the content too quickly. So...I dunno.

    This is one of those things where, now that they've opened the box of Ultra-Accessible content, they can't just go and close it back up or people will whine like never before.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    Well the downfall is that invalidates content FASTER ... meaning blizzard paints themselves into a corner. Part of the reason why the content seemed to last forever in BC was specifically because it was so hard. If a group is downing heroic everything in 2 months this only puts MORE pressure on blizzard to produce more content to prevent people from leaving due to lack of content. Ultimately it in fact behooves them to set the precedent that content WILL be hard, and WILL take time investment. I honestly do not understand their current strategy ... it seems that it can only end in ruin. The only way a game lasts with super shallow content is if it comes out at a very fast pace which is simply not a model Blizzard has ever proven to be able to maintain.

    Well in my opinion the TBC stuff lasted longer not because it was harder (I actually think in general a lot of the TBC fights were easier, players for the most part have gotten better) but because tiers never became obsolete. Now, whenever a new tier is released, all previous content becomes (mostly) worthless. It might as well have happened an entire expansion ago. TBC lasted longer because of tiered progression, rather than "whatever came out last is current."

    Their ultimate philosophy is "we spend a lot of money to put out content, we want everyone to see it." But I agree that that is short-sighted.

    The million dollar question is though, can they go BACK to a tiered progression model or go back to tiered progression AND leave out hardmodes,
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  19. #99
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    Where Blizzard spit the bit in Cata were the heroic dungeons, they were long, hard and they dropped blues even on the end boss of each dungeon; they were unforgiving of mistakes. The raids were not bad, except Al Akir which I still think is just a stupid freaking fight that dropped crap. Now they seem to have gone the exact opposite extreme. Hopefully, they find a balance in MoP.

  20. #100
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    I disagree. I think maybe a few people quit on that mark, but that was just because people were used to significantly overgearing the already-easy WotLK dungeons. I think the real mark was SEVEN AND A HALF MONTHS OF T11.

    Don't get me wrong, i really liked T11 content. But releasing 4.1 with only re-done ZA/ZG... that was weaksauce. If they had even had like a Gruul's lair type raid instance it would have been tolerable but... REALLY?
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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