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Thread: Dragonsoulwell Radiance

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    10% coming on Tuesday the 28th. The 5% was really not noticiable, but once you get to 10% and up it starts to feel like something, IMHO.

    For normal will this will shorten raid time quite a bit (we did H Morchok and cleared the instance with three pugs last night - oh why do we have to have attendence issues - in 2.5 hours with a 15 min break) - for heroic the 10% will be a big difference for us.
    5% most definitely WAS noticeable. It was a sizable nerf...I don't understand how people didn't notice the difference.

    10% will be too much...it'll be a complete snoozefest.

  2. #62
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    I'm being honest, we really didn't notice the 5% that much, I mean things seemed to die a bit faster, but all in all I couldn't really feel it - it could be that the most recent point of comparision was Firelands where the 25% was really, really, really noticable. Guess it's all relative.

    On heroic it will give us a nice boost, espeically since we need to need 2 or 3 pugs to fill out our team it seems (I say pugs, but a couple are friends who don't want to commit to the guild because of work Cops -EMS types who don't really have a consistent schedule for long periods); but on normal, it's alt gear up time.

    Hell, I have Destroyer's End on 4 toons now, I only got Kingslayer on 3 by the end of WoLK. I don't recall gearing up so fast nor clearing content so fast in WoLK as we did here. Maybe this guild has better players, but that can't explain everything. Madness on normal is a crappy end boss fight. LK was good fight, Rag was a good fight and worthy of an end boss, but Madness, I'm sorry it's blah.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    10% will be too much...it'll be a complete snoozefest.
    Maybe for guilds that have already cleared H DS, but we haven't yet.

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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    5% most definitely WAS noticeable. It was a sizable nerf...I don't understand how people didn't notice the difference.
    In a raid group where people regularly experience DPS variances of 10-15% between attempts, let alone between raids, the nerf was not noticeable. And when I say not noticeable, I mean it is not statistically significant: simply not measurable. In a raid group where every player plays at the top of their game, every attempt, without fail, I'd still expect a typical variance of the order of the buff.

    If it makes the difference between 3 healers and 2, where the previous week without significant gear changes, you were unable to 2-heal, then it would be noticeable, true.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by proudmoore View Post
    In a raid group where people regularly experience DPS variances of 10-15% between attempts, let alone between raids, the nerf was not noticeable. And when I say not noticeable, I mean it is not statistically significant: simply not measurable. In a raid group where every player plays at the top of their game, every attempt, without fail, I'd still expect a typical variance of the order of the buff.

    If it makes the difference between 3 healers and 2, where the previous week without significant gear changes, you were unable to 2-heal, then it would be noticeable, true.
    LOL WHAT?! That... just... no.

    Okay 1st variance does not equal % increase. A variance implies a possibility of damage being somewhere on a bell curve, 10% pushes that bell curve higher, so even if you vary 10% from 40k dps down to 36k dps, a 10% boost would mean you'll vary (roughly) from 44k dps down to 40k dps. So worst case scenario compared to without the 10% buff, your raiders will always be doing their max possible DPS (even if they're low on their curve). Now I realize this is in terms of DPS and the buff doesn't actually INCREASE dps, but decreasing boss hit points is the same concept, the math works out the same unless there's someone that has an exponential increase based on % or something, but I digress.

    Point is it makes a huge difference. Like... you only have to do 90% of the fight now with a 10% debuff... it... like... especially with how DS is designed and how massively impactful the 5% buff was... 10% is going to basically make the entire instance trivial. All you have to do is deal with the various mechanics, and that's about it.
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  6. #66
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    10% is too much, too soon. The 5% nerf cause a GIANT spike in new kills in the dungeon and trends are showing that number is still rising. Why nerf it when the number of new kills every week is still going up? They should only up the nerf if/when the number of new kills levels off (that is if you believe they should nerf it in the first place).

    Just look at the spike in kills after the 5% nerf: http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2656-Dragon-Soul-Difficulty-Changes-Impact-Blue-Tweets-Comics-MMO-Report.

    10% is too much, right now.

  7. #67
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    You have to look at the third graph, not the first or the second. Spine got nerfed by 20% with the last patch and was a giant roadblock for those without perfect setup/dps. But the third graph clearly shows that this 5% nerf didn't change anything overall, it's still a linear increase in kills since after the xmas holidays.

    Just imagine it differently: those 5% equals to handing out needed loot to your raiders instead of sharding those agility daggers a fifth time

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slyvar View Post
    10% is too much, too soon. The 5% nerf cause a GIANT spike in new kills in the dungeon and trends are showing that number is still rising. Why nerf it when the number of new kills every week is still going up? They should only up the nerf if/when the number of new kills levels off (that is if you believe they should nerf it in the first place).

    Just look at the spike in kills after the 5% nerf: http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2656-Dragon-Soul-Difficulty-Changes-Impact-Blue-Tweets-Comics-MMO-Report.

    10% is too much, right now.
    You're assuming that this mined data is accurate. Blizzard has said in the past that they track player kills and that MMO data is way off base from the acutal number.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Point is it makes a huge difference. Like... you only have to do 90% of the fight now with a 10% debuff... it... like... especially with how DS is designed and how massively impactful the 5% buff was... 10% is going to basically make the entire instance trivial. All you have to do is deal with the various mechanics, and that's about it.
    For competent groups on normal yes - although I have to say I've been in PuGs that still struggle with FL normal despite the 25% nerf.

    Heroic is still going to depend on the group. I know for us 10% will help a lot, but I'd be surprised if it makes the Heroics trivial. I am confident, although math is not my strong suit, that the 10% will put us over the top for Heroic Ultra. We were about 15 million away last time we tried it (2 lockouts ago) and have geared a up a bit since then. Healing was never an issue on that fight.

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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    LOL WHAT?! That... just... no.

    Okay 1st variance does not equal % increase. A variance implies a possibility of damage being somewhere on a bell curve, 10% pushes that bell curve higher, so even if you vary 10% from 40k dps down to 36k dps, a 10% boost would mean you'll vary (roughly) from 44k dps down to 40k dps. So worst case scenario compared to without the 10% buff, your raiders will always be doing their max possible DPS (even if they're low on their curve).
    No, of course the variance and the mean aren't the same thing. However, we're not comparing the two. Variance is something you'll discover attempt after attempt, week after week, modified by changes in raid composition and gear. A variance of the order of 10% or so is something I am aware of about my own performance, and that of the other members of my raid group, having been raiding with them for months - in a few cases, years (before you raise that issue, yes, I am aware that variance itself will be time dependent, discontinuously so). Now, we skip past an event; the (de)buff occurs. Functionally, we are dealing with a single, or at least small number of, points of data (boss kill times). Over a significant number of data, obviously, the kill times will be reduced by 5%. However a single, or limited subset (3-4 weeks worth) is not sufficient to establish a new model (i.e. mean and variance).

    Point is it makes a huge difference. Like... you only have to do 90% of the fight now with a 10% debuff... it... like... especially with how DS is designed and how massively impactful the 5% buff was... 10% is going to basically make the entire instance trivial. All you have to do is deal with the various mechanics, and that's about it.
    This I feel may actually be the more important point. Hard as you may find it to believe, for many (I suspect most, but have no data with which to back such a claim) people, that was the case to start with. People who were not so much struggling to put out the required damage dealing throughput, but who couldn't wrap their head around the fact that Zon'ozz's ball bounces in a non-physical direction*, or cannot, for the life of them, hit Ultraxion's button in the requisite 5s window.

    *This is a pet dislike of mine.
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  11. #71
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    Dragon Soul Difficulty Reduction
    MMO Champ JUST published a blog about how effective the 5% nerf was. As the graph indicates, progress is continuing at a healthy, linear rate. It hasn't leveled off. Why are you nerfing heroic mode, again? You explicitly told us that you would not continue with blind nerfs on auto pilot.
    We're not "nerfing blindly." Keep in mind that, the debuff can be disabled. So if you and your Raid choose to do so, you can take on the encounter without it. We also explained our thought processes in the original announcement blog about the debuff here.

    Despite arguments to the contrary, there is a choice involved here. You can choose to leave the debuff on or turn it off. If you're looking for the challenge that doing the raid gives you without the debuff and your raid group isn't interested in turning off the debuff, that is still a choice that is being made. No one is forcing that on anyone. If you personally feel forced, then it may be an option to find another group that is interested in the challenge of doing it without the debuff.

    Meanwhile, the debuff affords those that want to progress a bit, who have experienced difficulty, more of a leg-up.
    This is taken from MMO-Champ, I know they talked about this a little on Legendary this week, but these seems like a steaming pile of BS answer.
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  12. #72
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    It's the same as ICC, if you were close on a kill with 5% (but couldn't do it without the buff) then you've now have your challenging kill stolen from you. The "look for another group" argument is the same they use against players complaining about the change in mentality brought by LFG tools. (Off-topic: The guild recruitment tool is very similar to RDF, but doesn't work because nobody uses it. Goes to show the system is only useful as long as people use it.)

    In the original blog, they specificly talk about keeping it challenging and enjoyable, yet the 10% is coming so fast after the 5%, I don't see how that keeps it challenging. Then again, the Blue defending the nerfs probably had no say in the actual choice of nerf timing and is simply trying to do his/her job. I suppose some higher ups already layed out a schedule of when the nerf should be maxed out and when 5.0 should be released and that's the end of it.
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  13. #73
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    If you want a challange turn it off, they're right on that point. However, it would nice if you could scale it yourself, but that would be a bit of a programming challange I assume.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    If you want a challange turn it off, they're right on that point.
    No, they're not right, at all. That's not how progression works. 1st) Progression kills are also an effect of what other guilds are doing. In a race to server first, or world 100th, whatever it is, people at the high end of progression want to rank high. Turning off the buff intentionally nerfs them against what their competitors are doing, and just makes them look bad. This also affects recruitment where people look at their guild and go "lololol 4/8 HM with 10% nerf, what n00bs!"

    That and finding 24 other people that also don't want the debuff is neigh impossible. By not turning the buff on you are intentionally nerfing yourself 10% compared to the other people on the same content with no increase in reward. When you're talking about raiders that will min max their toons to output 1% more DPS, you really think that they will want to just turn off a 10% buff?

    The logic is completely flawed. Maybe once they've killed it with the debuff they'd try and go back and kill it without, but there's no marker or achievement for that.
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  15. #75
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    Why I support nerfs


    The casual guild

    The casual guilds will probably see the most immediate benefits from this nerf in terms of progression but the least in the long term. Bosses will be going down faster, mechanics will naturally have more error allowance, and morale of casual guilds will raise as progression happens.

    Players will still come and go, and some may decide that they want more of a challenge and start to look at forming hard mode groups or switching guilds altogether. But that is a natural part of any guild; personnel rotation happens. At the end of the day, this buff will probably attract and retain as many people as might move because of its effects.

    The moderate guild

    A moderate guild will see the least impact from the nerf, but it'll still be felt in a positive way. Chances are, if you're in a moderate guild, then the normal modes are cleared and hard modes are being worked on, albeit at a potentially slower pace than might be ideal.

    The moderate guild will see some of the roadblocks standing in their hard mode raiding way evaporate. (Think if heroic Morchock has just a bit fewer HP -- no more 2% wipes -- or if Hagara's lightning did 5% less damage). These guilds will also have an easier and more relaxed time farming content to help them get their overall gear levels up. Yes, Spine and Madness are on farm, but there's still an enrage timer on Madness that has to be met, and an unfortunate mistake or two can erase 15 minutes of hard work. Those mistakes? Less likely to be deadly now, and that's a good thing.

    Finally, the moderate raiding guild will have an easier time gearing people up to fill their ranks. Chances are the moderate guild doesn't have heavy standards when it comes to gearing but still requires at least a 384 level or so. With this nerf, maybe 378 would be OK if the person is well experienced or shows initiative and has a positive entrance interview. After all, if the boss has 10% less health, that means 10% less DPS needs to be done. Gearing happens more easily, and the people available to be geared up increases.

    The hardcore guild

    In my opinion, the hardcore guild has the most to gain from Dragon Soul nerfs.

    It allows them to continue to progress through the hard modes at a pace that keeps them alive, even though many members want to take time off. If these guilds are the base of WoW that keeps our game alive, as some would contend, then Blizzard is directly giving them the tools they need to survive.




    Turning off the buff
    1) Nobody wants to: Nobody wants to play a game that is harder, exert more effort, and make there time in wow more challenging. If they wanted a more technically challenging game, if they did they would already be playing it.

    2) The race: If your a true 'X first' guild, turning off the buff is akin to suicide. Your competition is 9 times out of 10 off your server. Those other guilds have the ability to leave the buff on. If you turn the buff off, and they leave it on, they are fighting a fight that is 5% easier. Its giving your opponent a handicap, making them run 5% less distance in a race.
    -Yes the progression race is that tight. I don't know how many people follow it closely but the time between many world first kills this tier at least was measured in minutes. Even down to top 20 [insert localization] the competition is measured in hours.

    3) After farm has started you want the nerf: If you have killed the content, you want your farm content to be nerfed. But you only want it to nerfed for yourself. A top end raiding guild after content has been cleared becomes so casual it shames most of WoW's population. We don't want to spend HOURS raiding. After we have killed everything, we really don't care what you do with your character, gear, gems, enchants as long as you pull decent numbers and everything dies.
    Last edited by leethaxor; 02-26-2012 at 12:14 PM.
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  16. #76
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    After killing it with the nerf, the only point to turning it off would be to do a world first without the buff. But that requires nobody to have killed the boss prior to the nerf, which hasn't happened since heroic lich king. Under any other circumstances, turning the buff off is simply a nuisance that nobody would choose to have.

  17. #77
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    @leet: I agree that nerfs can be good, and fight specific nerfs are good, such as the nerfs to Spine and fixing some of the glitchy things on Blackhorn. Those are the good kind of nerfs for hardcore guilds.

    The BAD kind of nerfs are the flat % based nerfs that happen too soon. There's tons of guilds that raid tons of different hours and depriving guilds of a kill pre-nerf just sucks unless everyone is just sort of starting to plateau. If a plateau occurs, sure nerf it. But at the point in time where there's still a linear increase in overall progression, WHY ARE YOU NERFING THE INSTANCE?!
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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    @leet: I agree that nerfs can be good, and fight specific nerfs are good, such as the nerfs to Spine and fixing some of the glitchy things on Blackhorn. Those are the good kind of nerfs for hardcore guilds.
    There are nerf's and fixes. The glitches on blackhorn that were fixed were fixes. Making charge more visable wasn't a nerf it was just IMPOSSIBLE to see those charges on hardmode with all that fire.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    The BAD kind of nerfs are the flat % based nerfs that happen too soon. There's tons of guilds that raid tons of different hours and depriving guilds of a kill pre-nerf just sucks unless everyone is just sort of starting to plateau. If a plateau occurs, sure nerf it. But at the point in time where there's still a linear increase in overall progression, WHY ARE YOU NERFING THE INSTANCE?!
    Yes, but as the same time no.

    No because, some flat % based nerfs are good. The 10% health nerf to Yor'sahj. The 20% nerf to Spine. Those were necessary. When you have to run an impracticable raid comp to kill a fight I think its fair to no longer count that as a nerf but as a hot fix.

    When I say impracticable raid comp , I'm not saying something 'Oh we have to 4 heal this.' I'm saying a raid comp that an 'a guild of that raid size would not be able to support on the long term unless they were a guild themed with running that raid comp' i.e.: Paragon 25man H Nef, H Spine pre-nerf.

    Yet one can argue that the linear progression of the population of WoW is because of the nerfs since we have no way of seeing if progression would have flat lined if the nerf's did not go into place.
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  19. #79
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    Oh ya, to clarify by flat % based nerfs I meant across the entire instance, not for a specific boss.
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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Oh ya, to clarify by flat % based nerfs I meant across the entire instance, not for a specific boss.
    I'll agree with this.
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

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