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Thread: DS v. FL Raid Stat

  1. #1
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    DS v. FL Raid Stat

    This is from MMO so take the numbers with a grain of salt. Blizzard has said in the past that these types of numbers are blatantly wrong and only Blizzard knows the true stats.

    But assuming that this data is in the broad ballpark, what I like is that more people are raiding and that appears to be directly attributable to LFR; so good for LFR that it gets people to raid. Maybe some get bitten by the bug and move on to normal mode and then heroics.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/

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    So long as they don't think that normal mode is in anyway clear-able by ignoring every mechanic in the instance like you can on LFR, and then complain that it is "too hard".

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    LFR could be hugely significant. Where before, Blizzard were creating raids for a relatively small niche of players, LFR means that it's a much more financially viable thing to invest in raid content creation. If they really embrace it, it could result in a significant increase in the volume of raid content. Of course, then they'd face the challenge of maintaining quality, variety, creating new challenges, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    So long as they don't think that normal mode is in anyway clear-able by ignoring every mechanic in the instance like you can on LFR, and then complain that it is "too hard".
    Such the cynic

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    Yeah this is a big feather in the cap of LFR, proving that it has largely succeeded as designed.
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    Now, as Swelt points out, can they build on their success.

    Anyway, with the success, does that mean we'll see more raids? This patch was really short on raid fights; I feel kind of cheated and hope they make it up in MoP.

    Also, the numbers seem to confirm how much easier DS is at this point than FL was - 174k completed DS normal after a month and a half v. 50k for FL after a month and a half.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie
    So long as they don't think that normal mode is in anyway clear-able by ignoring every mechanic in the instance like you can on LFR, and then complain that it is "too hard".
    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Such the cynic
    Its a somewhat valid concern, though. We know that the squeeky wheel gets the grease, and if enough people get on the forums and cry in unison "this is too hard, what about us?" then Blizz would be obliged to respond. I would think that the point that this could occur most of us "above average" raiders would be beyond the effect of any nerfs that could be instituted. But it would give us something to talk about.

    It is encouraging to see more people getting involved in raiding and I think it would encourage Blizzard to pump more resources into creating raids. Only good things can come from this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Sounds like the guy who ran in front of the train had an even worse week than you guys did.

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    My worry about adding LFR difficulty is that they have a finite amount of resources to create raid encounters.

    This means that now they have to try to make those resources create 3x<# of bosses> encounters instead of 2x<# of bosses>.

    Whereas T11 had 25 boss fights developed over 12.5 bosses (13, really, Sinestra only being available on heroic), T13 had 24 fights over 8 bosses...and honestly the quality of the fights is pretty mediocre. They are somewhat constrained by having "mechanics" that can be tuned to be ignorable in LFR. I think they rushed out 4.3, but that aside, they clearly are stretched even more thinly now and having only 8 encounters which are relevant to me instead of 13 is a pretty serious downgrade.

    And before the idiots who think "THEY HAVE ALL THIS MONEY JUST HIRE MORE PEOPLE" jump on and make their retarded claims: That is NOT THE WAY IT WORKS. You can't just hire Bob off the street, sit him down in front of a computer and expect him to be capable of working within their system to create something that's relevant. Especially in something as esoteric as encounter design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    And before the idiots who think "THEY HAVE ALL THIS MONEY JUST HIRE MORE PEOPLE" jump on and make their retarded claims: That is NOT THE WAY IT WORKS. You can't just hire Bob off the street, sit him down in front of a computer and expect him to be capable of working within their system to create something that's relevant. Especially in something as esoteric as encounter design.
    I'm full well aware that you can't fix all issues by throwing money on it.
    I'm also well aware that most issues do evaporate when you throw enough money at it. Sure, you can't hire Bob off the street and have him design a dungeon. You can, however, hire Bob, Jill and a thousand of their cousins to run dungeons for you, giving you an easy way to test your new ideas or tunings. Also, if you can hire one person to design such dungeons, you can hire two. Or three. Maybe throwing a hundred at it won't work, but you can put a decent team on each boss. This problem can be made much less troublesome by throwing money at it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

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    Right now Blizzard has hit a home run with LFR, but they need to keep the momentum going; LFR is going to start getting old, people are going to have pulled out as much gear as they can get from it fairly soon; then what's next if MoP is not out? We going to get another Ruby Sanctum to hold us over?

    As we said before, DS is a disappointment and I think pretty much ranking with Trial of the Crusader as to raid quality, but if DS was put together as a test case for three tier design, then I'll accept that and understand; i.e. not wanting to get too fancy with a design that was basically a beta for LFR; but if this is an indication of the "quality" of work we'll see going forward, then that's not good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    My worry about adding LFR difficulty is that they have a finite amount of resources to create raid encounters.

    This means that now they have to try to make those resources create 3x<# of bosses> encounters instead of 2x<# of bosses>.

    Whereas T11 had 25 boss fights developed over 12.5 bosses (13, really, Sinestra only being available on heroic), T13 had 24 fights over 8 bosses...and honestly the quality of the fights is pretty mediocre. They are somewhat constrained by having "mechanics" that can be tuned to be ignorable in LFR. I think they rushed out 4.3, but that aside, they clearly are stretched even more thinly now and having only 8 encounters which are relevant to me instead of 13 is a pretty serious downgrade.

    And before the idiots who think "THEY HAVE ALL THIS MONEY JUST HIRE MORE PEOPLE" jump on and make their retarded claims: That is NOT THE WAY IT WORKS. You can't just hire Bob off the street, sit him down in front of a computer and expect him to be capable of working within their system to create something that's relevant. Especially in something as esoteric as encounter design.
    I agree with you in many ways Ion.

    There is NOT an unlimited supply of developers and even if you can find the right people, you rarely can ever just toss them into those positions and have them take off right at the get-go like they've been working there for years. I'll leave that point at that, as I also have views about how workforces are viewed as "disposable".

    As for the issue of boss encounters, here's the issue there........
    What % of the WoW gaming population actually raids heroic mode?
    What % raids normal?

    If/when you're investing an amount of resources into a very small portion of the game population, you can run into a few issues.
    One of those issues is..... the focus of the company. If our focus is on producing quality, and things such as, oh... devoting devs to hours of work to developing a product for a particular segment of our paying customers..... then we're going to tackle things differently. I may deem it to be a wise investisure of our resources into that particular aspect because how that aspect affects that population has effects across the whole product that ensure its success.

    Now, if my focus were on, let's say..... efficiency..... I might look at those devs working on something for that small population and determine that, that's too many resources devoted to something that is for too small of a customer base. Take two of those devs and have them develop a pay-for-ownership minipet. Oh, and while you're at it, pull another one and have them work on this other thing. Reduction of resources focused on that may not matter as much to me, as I believe that by focusing on these other offsets, I will be able to compensate and still come out ahead in something else that takes a greater importance to me.

    I believe, fully, that there has been a focus shift at Blizzard somewhere that has directly impacted this.

    Yes. I understand that deviation from a tried and tested formula for success may seem illogical. Why change this? It is yielding results of X!
    However, when I want results of X+Y, chances are, I may deviate from that formula.
    And the thing that is often neglected is that, yes.... I'm getting X+Y...... but at the end of the day, it was also at the cost of Z.....
    And in this case, Z being customer satisfaction.
    No one tanks in a void.........

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    I would believe the whole "we're doing this for customer satisfaction" thing if in fact the highest point and plateau in subscriptions (indicating the highest point in customer satisfaction) didn't happen when there were far fewer people raiding. Now clearly LFR is a red herring and there are other large issues with the game/design but whatever they were doing before clearly was more popular. If money speaks then whatever they did halfway through BC through halfway through Wrath is clearly what they WANT to keep doing to maximize revenue ... and that had nothing to do with LFR or even LFD.

    So while I believe the LFR design has been a resounding success as designed, I question whether that is going to actually improve the game in regards of increases subscriptions given that 2 million more people than today apparently enjoyed the game more before the advent of LFR/D. Again I believe they are a symptom of a deeper design paradigm shift (for the worse, numbers don't lie), not a cause, but in the end subscriptions are what matters.

    To extend the point to hyperbolic levels just to illustrate: If for whatever reason having ultra exclusive raid content that only 200 people could ever experience caused there to be 25 million subscriptions with the 24.999 million complain all the time vs having only 5 million subs where 4.9 million of them get to experience every last shred of content ... which one makes more sense as a business? Is that realistic? Nope, hyperbole as I said before, but clearly there is some point where if too large a percentage of your players have access to too much content then they really have nothing left to do and thus unsub. It's the classic lesson of never let the race dog catch the rabbit, they'll never run that fast again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    To extend the point to hyperbolic levels just to illustrate: If for whatever reason having ultra exclusive raid content that only 200 people could ever experience caused there to be 25 million subscriptions with the 24.999 million complain all the time vs having only 5 million subs where 4.9 million of them get to experience every last shred of content ... which one makes more sense as a business? Is that realistic? Nope, hyperbole as I said before, but clearly there is some point where if too large a percentage of your players have access to too much content then they really have nothing left to do and thus unsub. It's the classic lesson of never let the race dog catch the rabbit, they'll never run that fast again.
    In the end, all we have is speculation as to what caused the numbers to drop. Blizzard has data that we don't have access to that they are reacting to. Just because some of us on this forum don't like the direction it's going doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing. We'll just have to see. Also, the game is seven years old, and, they may have projections saying that arresting the slide or slowing it, with SWTOR up and running, may be the goal, rather than grow at the old rate. We don't know, we can only speculate, and in many cases with many people here, they project their own outlook onto it, and skew the interpretation of things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    I would believe the whole "we're doing this for customer satisfaction" thing if in fact the highest point and plateau in subscriptions (indicating the highest point in customer satisfaction) didn't happen when there were far fewer people raiding. Now clearly LFR is a red herring and there are other large issues with the game/design but whatever they were doing before clearly was more popular. If money speaks then whatever they did halfway through BC through halfway through Wrath is clearly what they WANT to keep doing to maximize revenue ... and that had nothing to do with LFR or even LFD.
    I think what helped WoLK a great deal was the pug-ablity factor of raids and that was totally missing from Cata before the hard nerf to FL and LFR. DS normal is quite pugable with a good group; I went 5/8 last week on my priest with no wipes, ping pong was close since tank pointed him in the wrong direction but we adjusted.

    People who were left out of end game content feel epic now since they're getting shinies from DS that even the big boy raiders want, there's more to do, gold is easier to come by; the game is getting a more fun, less grindy feel to it.

    The biggest issue I see for the game is the community and the d'bags contained there in. Nothing is more of a turn off to a new player than running into the dickheads of WoW, but we all had to deal with them so I guess if the content is good it will survive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    The biggest issue I see for the game is the community and the d'bags contained there in. Nothing is more of a turn off to a new player than running into the dickheads of WoW, but we all had to deal with them so I guess if the content is good it will survive.
    It's interesting you mentioned this. I had a friend who I have been trying to get to try the game for a very long time (like 5 years). He finally decided to try it about a month ago (funny enough....after I decided to switch to SWTOR). He played for a couple of days, then started talking bad about the game. I asked him what was up and he said that he asked a question about how the auction house works, in public chat, and was instantly ridiculed for being a noob.

    He logged out, uninstalled and will probably never play the game again.

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    ^ That's the problem, I see it everyday in Trade Chat. Now that said, I play on two servers, kind of; I have my Alliance toons on Alexstrasza US which are my main toons - 8 85s. I've started playing my Horde toons on Shandris, I have my Orc DK to 71 and am moving right along.

    Trade Chat on Alex is just filled with rude people and 4 or 5 known "celebrity" trolls that the 12 year olds try to suck up to; my ignore list is long. Shandris on the other hand, I was noticing how quite Trade Chat was. Maybe I'm just not on there enough, but it was all very nice and clam - people seemed, dare I say, - courteous.

    I think it's really server specific; as with everything some are worse than others.

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    I'd wager it's also got to do with server size as well. If I was going to get someone into wow, I'd probably warn them that alot of people can be assholes heh.

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    What community? Any sense of community I saw died in Wrath. I don't know anyone on my server, nor do I have to, anymore. When you have no reason to invest in other people, you don't, and thus indifference reigns supreme and hence assholes are not only tolerated ... but commonplace. There's no disincentive anymore to not be an asshole because you just simply don't need those people on your server anymore than you need the people in LFR/D. SWTOR is currently at least attempting to maintain some presence of community but I cynically fear they will cave as well. Oh well, few seem to care. Honestly at this point fewer and fewer have any idea that it can be any other way. WoW is turning into Call of duty or any other FPS where indeed you play with other "humans" but really it doesn't matter that they're human at all. That sucks, to me at least.
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    I've never been part of any sense of server community, and I've been playing since vanilla. The only time I really interacted with anyone outside my guild was in pugs, so for me, things on that front are pretty much exactly the same as they are now.

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    What community?
    This mythical, wonderful community you speak of is something that was never there for me outside of my guild, which I still have. The only thing different now is that in the old days I knew who the assholes were on my server, and didn't have to deal with any others, and now there's other cross-realm ones, but I don't have to deal with them more than once. And before someone plays the "but you weren't there!" card, yes, I was there since Jan 2005.

    If you're talking about the raid-guild cliques that aggressively excluded anyone who wasn't a hardcore raider in Vanilla, then I guess that's the community you loved so much because you were a part of it. I saw the raid-guild clique from both sides, inside and outside, and I didn't care for it when I was in it. It was just as full of assholes on the inside as LFD is now. Otherwise, it was my guild that I'm in now, and have been for most of seven years except for the raid-guild year, and a couple of other friendly guilds like us, that still exist, and we still traffic with. Nothing has really changed, other than the cross-realm people I interact with. The server people are no better or worse than they ever were.

    I still believe that LFD/LFR improved the game for most people, except those who wish to exclude anyone who doesn't play the game their way. Some seem to be very unhappy that the masses don't have to depend on their cliques for certain things anymore.
    Last edited by mavfin; 01-10-2012 at 06:47 PM.

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