+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 31

Thread: What should our dps be pulling

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    47

    What should our dps be pulling

    So we spent all night wiping to ultraxion partly due to dps being low...we were using three healers, will only use two next week, but one of our dps started complaining that we don't have the gear, my rebuttal was that we were underperforming. For the most part we have an average ilvl of 380. So in that gear what should my dps be pulling?

    Some of our wipes were due to ppl dying to stupid mechanics.

    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    971
    Well. If you are 380 ilvl gear you should be pulling around 30k+ dps per person if they play perfectly.

    Armory links would be helpful.
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    WI, USA
    Posts
    2,614
    Ultraxion 10 man requires slightly over 155,000 raid DPS (155,312) to complete before the hard wipe of Twilight Eruption (at 6 minutes and 5 seconds). This is provided you live until the point where Twilight Eruption is cast. If people are dying significantly sooner than that it may indicate healing issues. If everyone is alive when Twilight Eruption is cast and the boss finishes this cast then it is a DPS issue.

    DPS should be squeezing out every bit of DPS they can on this encounter as it is a true throughput test. There are lots of methods of increasing DPS on this encounter. First, since the encounter has an extremely accurrately predicted start from boss mods (from the scripting of events) it is very easy to pre-potion on this encounter. Second, DPS and tanks leaving the Twilight Realm to avoid Fading Light or Hour of Twilight can use Heroic Will as close to completion of the debuff timer or cast timer as possible to minimize the time spent in the normal realm where they can't do anything. Third, even if you are running three healers, healing demand ramps up substantially later in the fight and healers, particularly Discipline Priests, can provide a fair amount of DPS on the boss prior to their full attention being required for healing. Some raids will run with only two healers which can result in reducing the fight duration by about one minute however typically this will help a group if they already had the DPS required to beat the hard enrage. If your DPS was insufficient with three healers, switching to two healers even though the fight duration will be shorter it will still hit a point where two healers won't be sufficient to keep people alive.

    Because healing demand increases later in the fight, Heroism/Bloodlust/Time Warp should be saved for later in the fight as it will also increase healing throughput.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    WI, USA
    Posts
    2,614
    Individual performance will vary from person to person on this fight. However consider that both of your tanks combined do about 25,000 DPS. If you have 5 other DPS each averaging out to 25,000 DPS then this nets you a total of 150,000 DPS which is short of the kill mark. On average, DPS should be above 26,000 for this fight. Some may likely be well over 30,000 no problem, such as Rogues who seem to get weapons in this new tier very quickly. Others may be in the mid 20s, so long as the total for the raid is over the necessary amount. As for what you deem acceptable for each individual is largely up to you, but anyone below the target point of 26,000 by more than a little could likely use some work.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    971
    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    Because healing demand increases later in the fight, Heroism/Bloodlust/Time Warp should be saved for later in the fight as it will also increase healing throughput.
    Have your healers blow heroic will on the pull then blood lust while they are 'outside' of the encounter. Then blood lust can be use used at the best time for both healers and dps.
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    WI, USA
    Posts
    2,614
    Actually it would still be better to use it later since DPS has ramp up times and if you are pre-potioning you would ideally want it to line up with the potion being off cooldown as well as major DPS cooldowns.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    47
    Thanks for all the replies so far.
    Here is a link from WoL if anyone wants to look at it. A large part of our problem was ppl dying b/c they werent getting the mechanics and I am working on that (sometimes it is hard for people to press a button at a certain time . Even if no one died from that though i dont think we could have killed him before the enrage (the one attempt where we made it right to the enrage he was at 9 percent and the other good attempts he was around 20-30 percent with around 1:30 left.

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/soqan...ses&boss=55294

    There were two dps that we subbed in for a bit but here are character links to our 5 main dps people.
    Mage:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...gaeon/advanced
    Feral druid:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lcome/advanced
    Hunter (who was one of our lowest dps from my main 5 dps)
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...imumx/advanced
    Lock:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...tucus/advanced
    Warrior (he dpsed for the first half of the night and tanked for the second half) http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...oloud/advanced

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    971
    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    Actually it would still be better to use it later since DPS has ramp up times and if you are pre-potioning you would ideally want it to line up with the potion being off cooldown as well as major DPS cooldowns.
    This is false. The largest dps gain for blood lust is at the start of the fight. Every cooldown is up. At any point later in the fight more then likely 1 or more will be down. While blood lust in execution range is nice unless you are stacking full execution classes (or at least a majority) you will still see a smalller gain.
    Also guardians can be used in this time and knowing that ALL internal cooldowns are up they can be used with things like power torrent or land slide or rune of the fallen crusader to maximize their usage.
    Unless by later in the fight you mean 5 to 8 seconds in. Then we are agreeing.

    Also I'm seeing some of raiders with unenchanted gear, and some of their reforging are wrong. Have all of your raiders done their homework?
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    47

    Re: What should our dps be pulling

    Actually no they all haven't done their homework and I have put them on notice.
    Thanks for all the replies.

    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Karlsruhe/Germany
    Posts
    4,012
    We found it better to use bloodlust late in the fight, not for the extra dps (which in general hardly differs no matter when you use bloodlust) but for the healers. The healing, while it can be covered by a single healer at the beginning of the fight, really needs to ramp up towards the end, and bloodlust at about 17 million life seemed to be the sweet-spot for us when we killed it the first time (although I must admit that the enrage timer was never really a concern of ours).

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    312
    Fetzie, have your healers phase out when you are lusting. Then lust again the last phase.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Karlsruhe/Germany
    Posts
    4,012
    We'll be trying that next week, that is something we would never have thought about.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,029
    I've always been under the impression that, in general, using Heroism (yes I'm Alliance) later in fights is better since most dps have talents that increases damage when the target is below 35% health. Unless it's specifically necessary to the fights gimmick, like on Domo where the opening of the fight is really the only chance to pew pew and not move, Hero is kind of a waste at the beginning.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    WI, USA
    Posts
    2,614
    Based on that log you had one attempt that hit the 6:05 hard wipe (first death was within 20 seconds of the end of the fight, most were alive until Twilight Eruption) and averaged 137,917 DPS which is close to 20,000 DPS short of killing the boss. One of DPS was beaten by the tank. No one's DPS was at the even the average level required for this fight, even your top DPS came up short of what should be "average".

    DPS simply has to do better accross the board. No one is even at the average required. You're hunter did 61% of what the average should be. Your top two DPS were about 95% of what should be average.

    In a group there will always be a spectrum of highest to lowest. Highest may be something like 15% above the average while the lowest may be something like 15% below the average. And the group composition as a whole managed to get by. It's easy to just point fingers at the hunter in this case and say they aren't carrying their weight. But in the same regard, in this case neither are your top players. While the hunter probably has the most room for improvement, all of them could improve.

    This isn't a fight that is forgiving of mistakes, whether those mistakes involve dying to something that could be avoided or simply not doing your job well enough.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    433
    I found making my whole team macro the Heroic will button improved peoples dps as they where not wasting time clicking on it

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    WI, USA
    Posts
    2,614
    Quote Originally Posted by woodyman View Post
    I found making my whole team macro the Heroic will button improved peoples dps as they where not wasting time clicking on it
    You could just keybind it. Like any other action button it is it can be found in your standard keybinding menu. ExtraActionButton1 is placed right after your primary action bar in the keybindings.

    And for that matter, even if they were to click on it... what exactly are they doing with their mouse this whole fight? I use my mouse to preplant Wild Mushrooms and to summon treants in the fight, that's it. DPS doesn't exactly need to use their mouse a whole lot on this fight since there isn't any movement and few classes have abilities that require a targeting reticle. It's actually your healers who are using their mouse the most. Most DPS classes could probably do this fight one handed.
    Last edited by Quinafoi; 12-16-2011 at 09:14 AM.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,029
    Your hunter's MM and for his gear his dps is really low, it might be his spec. I personally, find Survival an easier rotation than MM. Now I know MM is the uber raid spec, but if the dps isn't uber, it might be time to reconsider and move to Survival.

    The rotation is really just Serpent Sting, Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, Corbra Shot until Explosive Shot comes back (you can use Arcane to bleed excess focus, but it really doesn't matter) then hopefully you get Lock'n Load procs. He may want to try it since he doesn't have to pay so much attention to focus bleeding as with MM.

    In his gear, just mindless Cobra Shot - Explosive Shot and not worrying about focus bleeding will put him up to about 25k dps.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    47
    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    Based on that log you had one attempt that hit the 6:05 hard wipe (first death was within 20 seconds of the end of the fight, most were alive until Twilight Eruption) and averaged 137,917 DPS which is close to 20,000 DPS short of killing the boss. One of DPS was beaten by the tank. No one's DPS was at the even the average level required for this fight, even your top DPS came up short of what should be "average".

    DPS simply has to do better accross the board. No one is even at the average required. You're hunter did 61% of what the average should be. Your top two DPS were about 95% of what should be average.

    This isn't a fight that is forgiving of mistakes, whether those mistakes involve dying to something that could be avoided or simply not doing your job well enough.

    So my question is based on everyone's gear are they underperforming across the board, which I think they are, or are we undergeared? Should my dps be doing better?

    Thanks for all the help so far.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    WI, USA
    Posts
    2,614
    You are undergeared for what your raid may be capable of doing. As gear increases it compensates for lack of skill. All of them should be able to do better, whether or not they actually follow through on that though is up to them individually. You will require a lot more gear to be able to kill the boss if you continue to perform like this. If you improve your performance, then you need less gear. The gear you have should be sufficient to kill the boss.

    Bottom line...

    Your healers kept the raid alive all the way to the instant wipe at 6:05. They did their part.
    Your tanks survived the whole fight and combined they came out to do about as much DPS as a DPS. They did their part.

    The boss didn't die. Tanks did their part and healers did their part. You can't really ask for more out of either of them.
    Last edited by Quinafoi; 12-16-2011 at 02:01 PM.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    312
    I will disagree with the above, a warrior tank should be able to put more than 10k dps on this fight due to HR, especially with t12 2p. And tell him to spec into Incite, Cruelty and Deep Wounds.
    Last edited by kopcap; 12-16-2011 at 06:49 PM.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts