Time to Regem for Stam?

[Tengenstein]

Well once you've got FULL CTC, you're swapping Stam in place of mastery. If you've got a red socket bonus, or are close enough to the cap that you don't want to lose a full 40 mastery, defender's Shadow spinels make sence, regal elven peridot's not so much

[gom]

We (tanks) gear for worst case

exactly!

an unblocked hit right after a stomp on morchok might crush you compared to a 10k hitpoints buffer when you don't need it. Or think of an unblocked hit with some angered stacks on bubble boy or blackhorn at low % .. ouch!

In full non heroic gear you can reach ctc with two stamina trinkets as a warrior but i'd prefer using mirror/new vp trinket + stamina gemming over a second stamina trinket.

http://chardev.org/?profile=292501 vs. http://chardev.org/?profile=303717

I analysed a bit of wol and played around a bit with char dev. So I took your first profile and put an epic stamina gem in every slot to see the difference. An it was a laughable 10k. I wouldn't give up ctc for 10k.

Then I took my current gear and did the same.

This profile is my current gear: http://chardev.org/?profile=305072
Notes: atm I cannot afford epic gems and therefore I have to use 2 non-stamina trinkets. I could reach it with 1 stamina trinket and the elixir combo but I prefer the cauldron . At least I could squeeze in 4 Stamina Gems. Anyways the result is CTC and 209933 HP

Then I replaced every gem with a stamina gem and replaced the current trinkets with stamina trinkets which i have available. This is the profile http://chardev.org/?profile=305090

The result is 90.3% CTC and 249427 HP.

so it ends up being roughly a 40k Hp diffrence. Thats almost 20% more then in the other setup its like a perma Rallying Cry

Lets run these setups in a worst case scenario on heroic morchok:

Stomp -> Hit -> Hit in the Sta. setup and Stomp -> Block -> Block in the CTC setup.

according to WOL I take about 40k Hits on average and the stomp is about 105k

Stamina Setup: 249k-105 -40k -40k = 64k (25%)
CTC Setup: 210 -105- 28 - 28 = 49 (23%)

So the stamina setup has a slightly better outcome on top of that you would also trigger pride after the first hit but since its a worst case it didn't proc . So if your gear isn't top notch the stamina setup might be at least a viable approach and as soon as your gear progresses and ctc is easier to obtain stamina after ctc is the way to go.

On heroic modes:

Warlord - i need mirror for drain
Yor'sahj - i desperatley need mirror on this fight with all magical damage flying around

I agree the TB trinket is very good in this fights. Actually some tanks use sindragosa's flawless fang on these encounters and had great success.

[Bigbad]

Gom i dont know if you're doing 10mans or normal modes, but Morchok25 HC does 120k stomps and normal blocks hit me for 100k (for the 10 secs after the stomp). A normal hit would then hit me 144k. I really don't see the use of going below CTC cap on morchok hc. Being somewhere at 225k raidbuffed atm near 250k with the shammy buff I'm perfectly fine healthwise to survive 120+100k damage any additional stamina will just give the healers a bigger buffer.

[swelt]

Couple of thoughts:
- Is it helpful to keep going on about Morchok stomps when it seems that at least a minor cooldown rotation is expected in 25 man. I'd like to see a more balanced justification for maintaining full CTC than just this one boss (although I don't doubt there is one)
- Gems are just one factor. Elixir/Flask choice, Trinket Choice, Weapon Choice and even Food choice are other tunables. This isn't a binary thing, it's a sliding scale and, with the exception of gems, one that can be tuned encounter-by-encounter.

[gom]

Gom i dont know if you're doing 10mans or normal modes

so you are basically saying you didn't read the post from me or klausi. its 10man hc.

but Morchok25 HC does 120k stomps and normal blocks hit me for 100k (for the 10 secs after the stomp). A normal hit would then hit me 144k. I really don't see the use of going below CTC cap on morchok hc. Being somewhere at 225k raidbuffed atm near 250k with the shammy buff I'm perfectly fine healthwise to survive 120+100k damage

good for you to have 225k hp while ctc and a shaman healer. But like I said If I want to have ctc my health is 210k raidbuffed. And its not like im 378 average ilvl. its 395. I already gave up ctc on our first kill in favor of a stamina trinket because 210k didn't felt "good" enough for these stomp bursts. So even if you have 99% CTC your worst case scenario is the same as if you had 90% CTC. But you are in a better position with 90% CTC and 40k hp more in a worst scenario. Im not trying to convince you, bigbad or anyone else to regem stamina I mean you have CTC and 250k hp in your raid thats perfectly fine but for those who have a hard time to get CTC because of their gear the stamina setup might be a good alternative.

any additional stamina will just give the healers a bigger buffer.

and that is bad because...?

[klausi]

@gom
Well you're basically missing half the neat mastery pieces (belt, feet, 2xfinger, shield, shoulders) and that's why you're rather low on the ctc side. And there's a flaw in your math: in your worst case scenario there's additional 24k heal required to bring you back up, will they be capable of achieving this (eg via regular overheal on ctc tank) without ranking up (more mana costs) and in time for the next stomp?

Your conclusion is okay.. i guess. At least it was for t11 when you faced Halfus for the very first time on heroic. But if you already have enough hitpoints to survive a nasty burst i wouldn't worry to much about the leeway for your healers but about the overall damage intake to decrease their burden. If you kill a boss for weeks with 220k hitpoints and there are several "O shit!" moments when you barely make it you'll happily facing him again with 240k after your gear progressed, but is that really needed? Your healer throughput got better, boss is dying faster and you only stopped dropping to <10% but instead falling below 20% on his nuke of doom.

@swelt
A minor cooldown rotation is a tough task with ~ 15 stomps over 6 minutes if you're a warrior. Shieldblock won't help, unless you're dwarf there's nothing to hit outside of shieldwall to reduce the incoming damage. Having a neat hp pool to survive the burst and a disc priest shielding you on the casts comes handy.

Is elixir vs flask really a choice, either you're ctc capped or not and regulary you'll built your gear around either of it: adding 225 mastery via 5-6 gems if you want the flask versus adding 5-6 stamina gems if you're an elixir guy.

[swelt]

Shield block helps mitigate the big hits following the stomp (and will absolutely ensure you had full CTC if you were opting to dip below passive cap), giving you shield wall and last stand+regen (or perhaps rallying cry, given the other encounter mechanics) as your own cooldowns before you hit external CDs. My point was that you could handle that by being passively CTC capped and knowing that you'll never take a stomp->unblocked hit, or you could handle it with cooldowns and stack more stamina in the shape of 2 trinkets+. If we are talking about gemming strategy, we should be looking beyond 1 mechanic in 1 encounter.

The choice for elixir vs flask is probably one you make in advance, sure. But it's a cheaper/easier thing to decide that for a given fight that you want to drop below CTC if you have tuned around using elixirs than it would be to resocket your gear. Personally, I tune my gear around cauldrons and feasts because that's good enough for me.

[gom]

@klausi do you mean additional 40k or where did you get the 24k? anyway mana and heal throughput isn't a problem on this fight since you do it with 4 healers on 10m at least we do it. in general I think healers are less concerned about mana nowadays compared to the start of the expansion.

My point was that you could handle that by being passively CTC capped and knowing that you'll never take a stomp->unblocked hit, or you could handle it with cooldowns and stack more stamina in the shape of 2 trinkets+. If we are talking about gemming strategy, we should be looking beyond 1 mechanic in 1 encounter.

true. but at least the next 3 bosses are very similar in tank damage. they all have a certain burst mechanic: psychic drain, high void bolt stacks and focused assault. so you could handle them in a similar way as you suggested

[Bigbad]

so you are basically saying you didn't read the post from me or klausi. its 10man hc.

good for you to have 225k hp while ctc and a shaman healer. But like I said If I want to have ctc my health is 210k raidbuffed. And its not like im 378 average ilvl. its 395. I already gave up ctc on our first kill in favor of a stamina trinket because 210k didn't felt "good" enough for these stomp bursts. So even if you have 99% CTC your worst case scenario is the same as if you had 90% CTC. But you are in a better position with 90% CTC and 40k hp more in a worst scenario. Im not trying to convince you, bigbad or anyone else to regem stamina I mean you have CTC and 250k hp in your raid thats perfectly fine but for those who have a hard time to get CTC because of their gear the stamina setup might be a good alternative.

and that is bad because...?

No need to be that hostile. I read your post doesn't mention 10man at least on this page, your numbers just seemed off from what I'm used to.

My gear isn't that amazing 394 itemlevel same as your chardev profile, still I'm unhittable with 225k hp. I don't use souldrinker so that's about 5k hp compared to hc mandible. The other 10k difference seems to be epic gems and your preference into avoidance instead of mastery which seems odd if you want to push more stamina. Most notably your shoulders, belt, rep ring. This is me http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rugly/advanced

More stamina is never bad but its not worth breaking CTC cap for. I can't imagine an unblocked hit on zon'ozz on high stacks being very healthy. Yorsahj its more magical damage and Hagara its focussed assault so stacking stamina could be more viable, still doubtful its optimal to do so.

[gom]

No need to be that hostile. I read your post doesn't mention 10man at least on this page, your numbers just seemed off from what I'm used to.

If I appear hostile to you then I apologize but I'm not. We're having a discussion and therefore I expect others to read the thread before they try to make point not just the last page. I think thats called "showing respect" I do it too anything other then that is ignorance and I don't like ignorance.

My gear isn't that amazing 394 itemlevel same as your chardev profile, still I'm unhittable with 225k hp. I don't use souldrinker so that's about 5k hp compared to hc mandible. The other 10k difference seems to be epic gems and your preference into avoidance instead of mastery which seems odd if you want to push more stamina. Most notably your shoulders, belt, rep ring. This is me http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rugly/advanced

Its not that I prefer these Items but the gods of loot haven't exactly graced me with mastery items in fact the only item I got out of DS is the waist because the other tank has the vp waist, a resolve trinket and 1 token because our shaman passed for me. So I won zero rolls so far in this 5 weeks. Believe me I would love one of those two mastery rings or a brackenshell or in general more set pieces. the current state of my gear is the reason why I consider this stamina approach that's why I'm interested to hear feedback from ppl who actually tried it out.

[rangoon]

will just throw in my opinion for all of the dragon soul 25h fights

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ngoon/advanced

morchok - stam
zonozz - stam
yosahj - stam
hagara - lolwarrior
ultraxion - dps setup (threat/exp reforged + dps trinkets)
gunship - ctc cap (swap 1 stam trinket for fire of the deep)
spine - stam
madness - stam

so as far as i'm concerned - stam is the go to stat for warriors this tier, i'm not even far off of being ctc capped with double stam trinkets

[kopcap]

Lets run these setups in a worst case scenario on heroic morchok:

Stomp -> Hit -> Hit in the Sta. setup and Stomp -> Block -> Block in the CTC setup.

according to WOL I take about 40k Hits on average and the stomp is about 105k

Stamina Setup: 249k-105 -40k -40k = 64k (25%)
CTC Setup: 210 -105- 28 - 28 = 49 (23%)

So the stamina setup has a slightly better outcome on top of that you would also trigger pride after the first hit but since its a worst case it didn't proc . So if your gear isn't top notch the stamina setup might be at least a viable approach and as soon as your gear progresses and ctc is easier to obtain stamina after ctc is the way to go.

LOL No, your math is wrong and meaningless. Start with the fact that "average" and "unblocked" are slightly different things.