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Thread: so raid finder

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    There are already addons that provide such information....
    And this misses the point, because expecting players to rely on data provided by 3rd party sources is simply not great design. Furthermore, I really don't expect most players in LFR use many addons beyond recount, so won't have the information to hand most raiders have. So, again it comes back to Blizz giving players meaningful feedback as I've suggested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    Here is a great example... Thaddius charge mechanic.
    It is a great example of you missing the point. Blizz simply shouldn't put these kind of mechanics in LFR. They're great for normal mode raids and above, but for LFR the mechanics need to be straight forward, easily explained and easily fed back upon.

    More importantly the mechanics need to be meaningful, rather than watered down versions of normal mode which can be ignored and as a result teach nothing.

    It is pointless, and foolish, to refer to examples of boss mechanics from previous raids as a reason why this kind of feedback, from Blizz, wouldn't worl. Because the answer is obvious - you don't use those mechanics in LFR. Keep the mechanics simple, but keep them meaningful. Complex mechanics which can be ignored are pointless and I think Blizz really has missed a trick with keeping things simple, but meaningful, as actually getting the playerbase to pay attention to mechanics is by far and away the biggest challenge to making LFR worthwhile.

  2. #82
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    Of all the mechanics, as a healer, I wish Ultraxion would one shot the people who don't Fade on Hour of Twilight - personally, I won't heal them, if my AoE heals hit them fine, if not it doesn't really bother me.

    LFR was supposed to be about BH boss difficulty it feels a bit below that.

    LFR is really becoming more of a mixed bag, last night patch day messed up our raid night (who couldn't log in, who was having issues with the optimizer, etc - typical patch day) so 6 or us went into LFR (pallies, preists) to help gear some people and fill some slots and in our LFR group was a bunch of guildies from another Realm, about 8 of them and they knew what they were doing - it was a pleasure, things died quickly, the whole run was about 20 minutes at most.

    Fast forward to Fall of Deathwing new LFR group - close to wiping on Blackthorn, wipe on Spine ("what part of stop dps do you not understand") and stumble through Madness.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    There are already addons that provide such information....
    Quote Originally Posted by Libellus View Post
    And this misses the point, because expecting players to rely on data provided by 3rd party sources is simply not great design. Furthermore, I really don't expect most players in LFR use many addons beyond recount, so won't have the information to hand most raiders have. So, again it comes back to Blizz giving players meaningful feedback as I've suggested.
    Amusing how you decide to cut out the part of my quote where I say it's already part of the base UI and say it's no good if Blizzard doesn't do it themselves. I think I'm done bothering explaining the complexities of raid leading cause you only read what you want to read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    There are already addons that provide such information, in fact that base UI's version of the combat log has a "what happened to me" filter. The addon can only provide you the information about what happened, it can never tell you why it happened because that requires interpretation of this data.
    Last edited by Quinafoi; 02-01-2012 at 08:34 AM.
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    Amusing how you decide to cut out the part of my quote where I say it's already part of the base UI and say it's no good if Blizzard doesn't do it themselves.
    I ignored it because it wasn't relevant. There is a difference between the information being available and how it is presented to players. Yes it is there and anyone can look at their combat logs, but seriously how many LFR raiders do that? Probably the same number that use addons. So the fact that it is there, is a moot point.

    This is about LFR as a meaningful tool to teach players and Blizzard doing more to provide meaningful feedback, rather than expect the LFR players to do it. I accept that there are limits to what addons can do because they can only work with the available game data (but thats a moot point, because addons shouldn't factor into the equation for LFR). Whereas Blizz can use that data and work things into the game code to provide meaningful feedback to players.

    This shouldn't stop LFR being a casual friendly experience, but it will make it more interesting for those who want to raid but don't have time to committ to a guild and hopefully get players appreciating the value of boss mechanics.

    For the rest of the raiding community, we have our addons, we can use the data from the Blizz UI and we can interpret it, learn from it, and listen to tactics. We expect that of ourselves and each other, but it has no place in LFR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    I think I'm done bothering explaining the complexities of raid leading cause you only read what you want to read.
    Given you've ignored most of the content of my posts (or not understood it, its hard to tell which), I think it is obvious the only person guilty of reading what they want to read is you. You'd seemingly rather make ill informed assumptions.
    Last edited by Libellus; 02-01-2012 at 09:57 AM.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Of all the mechanics, as a healer, I wish Ultraxion would one shot the people who don't Fade on Hour of Twilight - personally, I won't heal them, if my AoE heals hit them fine, if not it doesn't really bother me.
    Ultraxion is a good example of a fight where Blizz could provide meaningful feedback i.e. "you died because you didn't use the button to avoid hour of twilight at the right time, which is 2 seconds before the cast concludes." I dunno, maybe thats spoonfeeding players too much, but at the same time saying ""you died because you didn't use the button to avoid hour of twilight" is a bit too vague. The system could be one that ratchets up the advice on subsequent deaths i.e.

    death 1 - "You need to press the button to avoid the hour of twlight."
    death 2 - "you need to press the button at the right time to avoid the hour of twilight."
    death 3 - "you died because you didn't use the button to avoid hour of twilight at the right time, which is 2 seconds before the cast concludes."

    At the same time, Blizz would have the data on the number of Hour of Twlight deaths to be able to do a raid wide message along the lines of "raid wiped due to too many deaths because of hour of twilight." Now I appreciate thats actually fairly sophisticated because this would have to be on the basis of Blizz calculating the raids dps and determining the number deaths (to HoT) that would definitively impact on the raids success. For a low dps raid, that might not be many people, for a high dps raid, that would be more. Still the numbers are there to be computed into some sort of output should Blizz wish it.

    Ultimately it doesn't bother me either if people live or die in LFR to effects like Hour of Twlight, because frankly there are better things in life to be bothered about. I've seen enough successful Madness LFRs to know that there is no need to worry about a small portion of the DPS tunnel visioning on the leg/arm providing everyone else is paying attention to corruptions, bloods, etc etc. But it does make me question the point of having mechanics if they actually serve little or no purpose.

    In LFR Hour of Twlight should be as meaningful as it is on normal mode. It is a simple mechanic, easy to learn, easy for Blizz to give feedback on (as above). Same for the Icewalls on Hagara, the Black Blood on Morchok (despite the fact that he's a joke anyway) and the nuclear explosions on Spine.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libellus View Post

    In LFR Hour of Twlight should be as meaningful as it is on normal mode. It is a simple mechanic, easy to learn, easy for Blizz to give feedback on (as above). Same for the Icewalls on Hagara, the Black Blood on Morchok (despite the fact that he's a joke anyway) and the nuclear explosions on Spine.
    And all claim many player deaths in LFR. Although, on LFR last night (see note above about guild groups in there) no one died to the Ice Walls - and the Ice Walls and Lightening only happened once each.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    And all claim many player deaths in LFR.
    True, although I do wonder how many of those dead players actually think what happened was their fault and are instead silently blaming the healers or the tank? I'm sure there will be quite a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Although, on LFR last night (see note above about guild groups in there) no one died to the Ice Walls - and the Ice Walls and Lightening only happened once each.
    But, did people survive on the Ice Walls because they didn't nab up or because the healers were really good and kept people alive in spite of the Ice Walls? In the latter case, you've got people succeeding without knowing why.

    Whereas in normal mode, you can be reasonably certain the everyone stays alive because they didn't make a mistake.

  8. #88
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    If Hour of Twilight hits no one, the aspects die. So someone, doesn't matter who (though from a strategy standpoint is usually the tank), is supposed to be hit by Hour of Twilight. Blizzard can't say your strategy you executed in LFR was wrong if you got hit by Hour of Twilight because Blizzard can't say whether or not you were the one person in the raid that was supposed to take it.

    And again, because Blizzard can't predict every valid strategy used to complete an encounter, they can't say one thing is definitively right while another is definitively wrong. How does Blizzard provide you feedback saying you did something wrong when there is no way for them to determine if you did something wrong or did what you're supposed to because of how your particular group is doing it? This is why what you're asking for can't possibly be created.

    Everything you are asking for is built entirely on the assumption that there is only one valid way to do things.
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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libellus View Post

    But, did people survive on the Ice Walls because they didn't nab up or because the healers were really good and kept people alive in spite of the Ice Walls? In the latter case, you've got people succeeding without knowing why.

    Whereas in normal mode, you can be reasonably certain the everyone stays alive because they didn't make a mistake.
    I was healing and all the bars stayed green, people knew what they were doing.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    If Hour of Twilight hits no one, the aspects die. So someone, doesn't matter who (though from a strategy standpoint is usually the tank), is supposed to be hit by Hour of Twilight. Blizzard can't say your strategy you executed in LFR was wrong if you got hit by Hour of Twilight because Blizzard can't say whether or not you were the one person in the raid that was supposed to take it.
    Blizz can see the roles assigned to a raid and therefore can see whether a tank, dps or healer was taking the HoT. Given the design intent appears to be that the Tank deals with that effect (given they have the HP and cooldowns to survive it) it is not a huge leap if logic to conclude that anyone else getting hit by it on LFR ( let alone dying to it) shouldn't be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi
    Everything you are asking for is built entirely on the assumption that there is only one valid way to do things.
    I accept what you're saying, but that generally only applies to fights as a whole. As a rule, for most individual mechanics, there is a set way or "expected" way of dealing with it. I've given perfectly valid examples of mechanics in LFR that this kind of feedback would work for. The more complex mechanics, for which this wouldn't work, simply don't belong in LFR. Also for LFR there is no harm in Blizz guiding players through a single strategy they know works. Anyone trying to do something different or unexpected (in so far as trying a different strategy goes) probably knows the accepted way of doing the fight and will ignore the feedback anyway. Or, more likely, they're raiding in normal mode where the feedback doesn't exist.You're conflating complex normal mode fight mechanics with LFR and saying "the feedback mechanism won't work for Thadeus etc etc" which misses the point that such a fight would simply be bad design for LFR. It is entirely possible for blizz to design fights and feedback that work for LFR. That such an approach does'nt work for existing fights is irrelevant.Finally, it is also a simple matter to NOT provide feedback on those mechanics which do not lend themselves to such an approach.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    If Hour of Twilight hits no one, the aspects die. So someone, doesn't matter who (though from a strategy standpoint is usually the tank), is supposed to be hit by Hour of Twilight. Blizzard can't say your strategy you executed in LFR was wrong if you got hit by Hour of Twilight because Blizzard can't say whether or not you were the one person in the raid that was supposed to take it.
    LFR everyone can zone out on HoT, no one has to stand in is my understaning.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    LFR everyone can zone out on HoT, no one has to stand in is my understaning.
    Actually one person needs to stay in, but it doesn't really kill a normal player till about 30-40% HP left, so tanks with CDs generally don't drop far below 50% HP.
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  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airowird View Post
    Actually one person needs to stay in, but it doesn't really kill a normal player till about 30-40% HP left, so tanks with CDs generally don't drop far below 50% HP.
    HoT doesn't drop a tank below 80% health if they use a cooldown

  14. #94
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    I think on this basis, it's logical to assume that (for LFR at least) Blizz would intend for someone assigned to the role of "tank" to eat the HoT, given they've cooldowns to mitigate the damage and will thus need the least healing afterwards. I accept that there are ways and means by which other classes could be put in the position of eating the HoT, but logically you'd just have one of your tanks do it.

  15. #95
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    No one needs to zone out on HoT in LFR because the Aspects never take the full brunt of the attack i.e. everyone can hit the button.

    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=55294#encounter

  16. #96
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    So there is no reason for anyone to take damage from it. Let alone die to it.

    That seems to me something Blizz could give fairly straightforward feedback on to players in LRF.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libellus View Post
    So there is no reason for anyone to take damage from it. Let alone die to it.

    That seems to me something Blizz could give fairly straightforward feedback on to players in LRF.
    Exactly. Now one could be generous and say that people are thinking of normal and someone (several people) are staying in; however, it's lfr and I think the better reason is either they have no clue, don't care, or don't want their dps to suffer or some combination.

  18. #98
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    Note to self, never run LFR on Monday nights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Note to self, never run LFR on Monday nights.
    I can see the logic, but honestly running Tuesdays on my hunter makes me want to scream. Chat box is filled with [Gobbis taunted Twilight Ultrax Trashmob] over and over and over again because the Brazilian tanks don't or can't or won't taunt them down. I do every single one. Additionally, each tank dies twice to fading light. WTF. Rogue and mage tanks FTW!
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    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  20. #100
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    Yeah, last night I needed the Madness wing on my Warrior and I dread going in to tank that half of DS in LFR. Zone into Ultra and trash is already down, so maybe won't be a bad night. Ultra fight starts, I taunt on Fading Light, other tank dies - okay working as intended - they res him and we do fine taunting and fading and proceed to wipe with 6 million left. DPS was horrible and healers were worse, not one healer took the red gem - my warrior has 0 hit and 0 expertise did 11k (I suck at tank dps generally) and still had 4 people below me.

    They kick the lower dps; pull again - tanks taunt fine, we wipe with 3 million left. DPS was horrible and we had three healers with 10k, 10k and 8k hps. Group breaks up, we get about 12 in raid and someone starts it - I left. 250 VP for the week on my warrior, but I did win tier pants in the Siege run; so not a total loss.

    Don't even get me started with the Brazil servers - when I see Goldrinn, Tol Barad, Nemesis etc. I just want to run. I'm sorry, and I don't mean to lump all players on those realms together, but more often than not they are just clueless. Gems and enchants - wtf are those? You mean rogues don't use strength? Of course I want expertise on my hunter! That those blackish/blueish circles on the ground in phase 2 of Warship don't give a haste buff? But I can target the Corruptions so they all must die? You mean I can make my pet attack something other than a Corruption? And my personal favorite, what's single target Blistering's mean?

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