+ Reply to Thread
Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 101

Thread: so raid finder

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    I suppose I am a unique case since I'm not a casual that is completely awful at the game.\.
    Not exactly unique. I'm in the same boat. I guess I just accept the position I'm in, and make the best of it. I will say, however, that I end up running LFR on Saturday night with my casual guildies, about 15 of us, in Mumble, telling jokes and killing dragons. It's a social event, so it's fun. I know it's faceroll, but, that's not the point in this case. It's the internet version of sitting around a table with pitchers of beer and plates of wings and watching the game. I almost never queue alone.

    (And before anyone makes a comment about my sad social life...I'm 42, I'm married, and I have four kids. I have all the social in my life right at home. Cheap MMO entertainment is nice. )

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    On the cloud.
    Posts
    2,279
    You're not unique, you fit into the same category as me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    788
    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    Not exactly unique. I'm in the same boat. I guess I just accept the position I'm in, and make the best of it. I will say, however, that I end up running LFR on Saturday night with my casual guildies, about 15 of us, in Mumble, telling jokes and killing dragons. It's a social event, so it's fun. I know it's faceroll, but, that's not the point in this case. It's the internet version of sitting around a table with pitchers of beer and plates of wings and watching the game. I almost never queue alone.

    (And before anyone makes a comment about my sad social life...I'm 42, I'm married, and I have four kids. I have all the social in my life right at home. Cheap MMO entertainment is nice. )
    Yea that really is my problem, I can only bare to do LFR with friends of mine so we can make fun of the people who die. Sadly most of my friends are freakin machines and get it all done at 3am on all 8 of their alts lol.

    I do think LFR might be better with a 10 man model instead simply do the difficulty could be ramped up to a more reasonable level and those who are too dumb can easily be weeded out. It could feel more like a 10 man pug only if someone has to leave you dont have to hearth and look for someone that doesn't need a full clear.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    150
    LFR could be more challenging and something players could actually "learn" from, if Blizz bothered to include more meaningful ingame feedback about what went wrong. Something that actually encourages players to realise that they need to think about the game mechanics, rather than "lol pewpew!"

    So when a player dies from "standing in the fire" (as an example), they could get a message (in whatever language set they're using for the game) that says "You died because you were stood in the fire. You cannot be healed through that. You need to move."

    You could also have raid wide messages. Using Yor'sahj as an example, the messages could be:

    The raid wiped because you did not kill X colour blob in time.
    Or
    The raid wiped because you killed X blob instead of Y blob
    or
    The raid wiped because no one killed the mana orb and the healers ran out of mana.

    And so on and so forth. These warnings would be disabled in normal mode.

    I think Blizz have overestimated how much the rest of the playerbase is prepared to listen to those who try to lead raids. Plenty of folk seem to think they can just ignore the raid lead or, more importantly, don't actually understand what the raid lead is saying (perhaps because of language).

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    WI, USA
    Posts
    2,614
    I think the fact that you assume people who die from environmental damage is always their fault reflects a bad attitude to how real raid leaders view things.

    Here is a simple example...

    If the boss cleaves and kills someone, is it that person's fault for standing in front of the cleaving mob? Or the tanks fault for letting them cleave the others? How exactly do you program the intelligence into your system to assign blame?

    Programming something like what you are asking for isn't possible because the game doesn't have a definitive right and wrong way of doing things. You have the data, but it requires intelligence in its interpretation.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,032
    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    Programming something like what you are asking for isn't possible because the game doesn't have a definitive right and wrong way of doing things. You have the data, but it requires intelligence in its interpretation.
    Yeah, just look at one of the most annoying add ons in the world Failbot or whatever the hell it's called - how I just want to kick people who have that blast into Raid Chat; and most the time it's just useless and designed to make others look bad. Just tells what you died from with not context.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    723
    I actually use addons like Ensidia fails and failbot to analyze exactly who is screwing up. I concur those addons have no place in the more casual environments or LFR ... but they are a godsend in a competitive raiding scenario where you simply cannot afford slack. If anything they keep people honest ... proven to be a liar enough times by a mod gets people into the "admit when you fuck up, it's ok we all do" mindset right quick. Honestly I would kill to have a mod tell me who blew someone up on Heroic Yorsaj ... we probably had 30 wipes due to that when we were still learning the encounter and couldn't figure out who did it.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  8. #68
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,032
    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    I actually use addons like Ensidia fails and failbot to analyze exactly who is screwing up. I concur those addons have no place in the more casual environments or LFR ... but they are a godsend in a competitive raiding scenario where you simply cannot afford slack. If anything they keep people honest ... proven to be a liar enough times by a mod gets people into the "admit when you fuck up, it's ok we all do" mindset right quick. Honestly I would kill to have a mod tell me who blew someone up on Heroic Yorsaj ... we probably had 30 wipes due to that when we were still learning the encounter and couldn't figure out who did it.
    But see, you add context to it because you understand it; so when it says "Fail [tank name] Nuclear explosion didn't move" or some such thing you know it's probably a healer issue not the tank ignoring the blast or zoning out and not moving (granted it could be cool down fail) but you know how to read into it.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    723
    Oh of course. Again I think those addons are total garbage outside of competitive raiding, my only point was inside of the narrow context of competitive raiding they are very helpful. In a casual environment they are just asinine. Yeah someone screwed up, so what ... we're having fun just get up and do it again. In LFR they are extremely silly because it rarely matters if people screw up.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  10. #70
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,032
    Totally agree.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    13
    Giving another look at the raid finder....
    Im not probably the kind of “target” on LFR im kinda hardcore player but i play with real friends and they are not, we get pugs and do mostly normal content...
    But the fact is, LFR gives 384 and the tier is as good as normal to take the bonuses, so im farming it.
    The problem i have is not the dificulty im farming loot and the faster the better but the loot sistem is just soooo bad.
    You can join raidfinder literaly from first day and with people needing all just for vendor it or in hope of chaging in future drops you can virtualy never get loot.
    Was that hard to implement a sistem that stop people for needing ALL, like each boss you dont get loot get a +10 bonuss roll and loss the bonus on the first need you win, that way you EVENTUALY loot something
    I dont know is just sooooo bad.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,032
    It's new and will be cleaned up in MoP they say. Right now it's the Spirit stuff that's causing some issues in my opinion. For example the Spirit/Intell shield from Blackthorn and the Spirit/Intell neck from Morchock are being won by Ret Pallies - since they're class specific and can go to DPS (shammies, priest, 'locks) I've seen Ret Pallies get the roll bonus and walk away with them. In MoP they say they'll be able to determine spec.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    13
    For me is not a spc problem, is a greedy get all you can get problem.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,032
    Quote Originally Posted by Feral xrx View Post
    For me is not a spc problem, is a greedy get all you can get problem.
    The one who dies with the most purples wins.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    150
    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    I think the fact that you assume people who die from environmental damage is always their fault reflects a bad attitude to how real raid leaders view things.
    Perhaps you should think that I was giving a few simple examples of what could go wrong and how it could be reported, rather than interpret that as the assumption that I think such things are ALWAYS the fault of the player. Because I don't. I was just giving simple examples, rather presenting any statement of belief. There is no bad attitude here on my part.

    Furthermore, raidwide messages wouldn't be of a "name and shame" variety, but directed at a raid level. Which they clearly are in my initial post.

    Meanwhile messages specific to the player, such as the entirely fair and just "stood in the fire" example in my earlier post, would be seen by that player only, in the spirit of giving them useful advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    If the boss cleaves and kills someone, is it that person's fault for standing in front of the cleaving mob? Or the tanks fault for letting them cleave the others? How exactly do you program the intelligence into your system to assign blame?
    I agree, not all mechanics are easily reported when there is such a degree iof player error i.e. player A dies because player B (the tank) faced the mob into the raid. I'm not sure how you report that, but then if we look at the example you've given, it would seem clear to me that any player who knew what they were doing wouldn't be stood in the cleave/front attack if avoiding it was at all possible. At which point the message "you died because of cleave/frontal attack, stand behind the boss" is entirely the right message. If you want to expand on that further you could have a more detailed message "you died because of cleave/frontal attack, stand behind the boss and the tank should keep the boss facing away from the raid."

    Furthermore, given many addons seem able to work out who died from what, it shouldn't be a huge leap of programming logic to equate the most damage done from an avoidable source like a cleave or frontal attack into a message which says "raid took too much damage from X attack. The boss needs to be tanked faced away from the raid."

    Indeed, taking the cleave/frontal attack scenario to the logical extreme, programming should be able to work out if the boss is facing the raid or not. At which point you could have a raid spam message saying "tank should face boss away from raid" or (if for some reason the tank turning the boss around was not possible for some reason) "raid should stand behind boss."

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    Programming something like what you are asking for isn't possible because the game doesn't have a definitive right and wrong way of doing things. You have the data, but it requires intelligence in its interpretation.
    I disagree. I think it is entirely possible to do for some mechanics, with a bit of thought, and clearly very difficult for others. Then it becomes a matter of which mechanics do you include in LFR and which mechanics do you save for the more challenging difficulty settings i.e. those that do not readily lend themselves to such explanations and which raiders at those settings have demonstrated a willingness to work out.

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    WI, USA
    Posts
    2,614
    There are already addons that provide such information, in fact that base UI's version of the combat log has a "what happened to me" filter. The addon can only provide you the information about what happened, it can never tell you why it happened because that requires interpretation of this data.

    Here is a great example... Thaddius charge mechanic. One raid says negative stack on the left (or a particular raid marker) and positive stand on the right. If you had a positive charge and died on the left of the boss it was your fault. If you died with a positive charge on the right of the boss it's the fault of the others that were on the wrong side. Now you enter an new group and they do the exact opposite, negative on the right and positive on the left. Positional information is strategy based. If you're supposed to stand somewhere and aren't you are failing. If you're not supposed to stand somewhere and are, you are failing. However there isn't a single right and wrong answer to defeat the encounter. The combat log says you died to damage caused by the opposite debuff. However it is impossible for an addon to determine who did what wrong because there isn't a set strategy. It's up to the people to interpret that information in the context of your strategy to determine what needs correcting.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    WI, USA
    Posts
    2,614
    Knowing what happened is what an addon will tell you. Understanding why it happened so you can correct it is what a good leader capable of processing that information will tell you.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  18. #78
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,032
    For pure comic relief, Thaddius was the greatest fight in the WoW world for 25 man PuGs; never mind the positive/negative thing, just the jump from the platform was worth the price of admission, then you have the person who didn't die missing the jump, then jumping again and, this time, making it, only to be on wrong side and proceed to wipe their side. God I loved that fight.

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    266
    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    For pure comic relief, Thaddius was the greatest fight in the WoW world for 25 man PuGs; never mind the positive/negative thing, just the jump from the platform was worth the price of admission, then you have the person who didn't die missing the jump, then jumping again and, this time, making it, only to be on wrong side and proceed to wipe their side. God I loved that fight.
    Heh, I liked that fight on my druid and mage, mainly because of dash+jump and slowfall.
    Also... "run around the boss on the opposite side of the opposite charge so I don't chance exploding, what?"... "oh you mean blink through the boss and continue pewpew... gotcha!"
    Bears are strong.

  20. #80
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,965
    Stallag and Feugan; Good tanks made High five macros and popped them as they passed each other mig air. Can you imagine that part of the fight in LFR, trying to get 17 anonymous DPS to balance damage done beteween 2 platforms...

+ Reply to Thread

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts