+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 24

Thread: Heroic Raiding: how do you get there?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    153

    Heroic Raiding: how do you get there?

    Now before I start too far I'd really like to say that...well, I can't say this isn't entirely whining. I suppose it's a little bit and it might be constructed as that and I apologize for it because whining really doesn't get anyone anywhere. However on a percentage the whining is maybe...5%. The other 95% is curiosity and I hope you all can indulge me in the 95% as opposed to the 5.

    Oftentimes when I look to the community, like many people I hear that constant litany of "this is too easy!", "they shouldn't have nerfed Heroic Rag!", "Heroic Nef is a joke!", "why does Blizz keep pandering to casuals?!", etc. Now alot of this may just be bull. The people saying it may have never even stepped into a Heroic Raid and are just being like the cool kids who have.

    I'm in a larger Guild on my server. Like many Guilds the people leaving hit us pretty hard, and myself and my girlfriend were two that actually wandered off to visit Rift for awhile before coming back just recently. She's never really been a big Raider but I like to see what I can. I was surprised to find our old Guild on regular Nefarian, and what's more doing pretty good. But still we're struggling. Something between phase 2 and 3...also working hard to grab a second Crackle in phase 1 but I'm getting side-tracked....

    The point is I was listening in on the Raid (still disappointed Blizz hasn't implemented Raid Observer) while looking over some posts here and I was struck by a thought:

    For a person like me, Heroic Raiding is like the Urban Legend. Noone in my Guild has gone 6/7 Heroic Firelands. Hell, no one that I KNOW has gone that. The only Heroic I've ever seen, let alone been on, was Heroic Lootship at the end of Wrath. Yet there's always this person's friend's brother has done Heroic Nef. Or this person's sister's boyfriend has tried Heroic Rag.

    So much preoccupation is put forth about Heroic Raiding. Comments, videos, etc. And I won't deny that people need it. That's understandable. But I and many people I know have almost never done ANYTHING on Heroic mode outside of 5-mans. It's almost like...a paradox. We struggle to get regular content down, but the web and community is abuzz about and seems to acknowledge only Heroic mode content.

    My question is this: How do you GET there? Is it just the sheer time-sink? If normal mode Raiding is such a joke that everyone seems to breeze through it, are my Guild and myself just back-of-the-class rejects for never having done any? Again I apologize if this comes off as a whine, as it's not meant to be. I'm just...bewildered. There's always great talk of Heroic this or Heroic that. Loud groans are issued every time an encounter is nerfed. Yet my guild follows TankSpot strategies. We do our best to get where we can. If this stuff is so absurdly easy...what's missing?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sartell, MN
    Posts
    850
    here's some things you could be missing:
    1) effort
    doing heroics requires a lot more effort. they require everyone in the raid to have a better understanding of how their class works than normal modes do. It's fairly common for people to simply not put in the effort that is required to be capable of viably doing heroic content.
    2) Motivation
    there are a large amount of players who simply don't care enough to put in the effort, if you aren't willing to put in the effort, you won't, and then you won't be able to do the heroic content.
    3) people
    your entire raid needs to be putting in the effort, and be motivated if you want to stand a chance at heroics. finding that many people who actually are willing to take the step up is not an easy thing to do.

    while time does play a roll in each of those 3 things, just because you don't have a ton of time doesn't mean you can't make the most of it. efficient use of ones time is something most people fail to do.

    |TGM UI |Fury Warrior Guide | How To Use Landsoul's Spreadsheet| The Numbers Game |
    "I am an elitist; I will never accept mediocrity and I openly show no respect for stupidity"


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    534
    Whats easy for one can be hard for another. but there are currently 43 guilds on my server being 1/7 hc or higher I'd say anyone who wants to put some effort in can get to heroic raids with the current nerfs in Firelands.

    "also working hard to grab a second Crackle in phase 1 but I'm getting side-tracked...." Sorry but is your dps that terrible? <-- This worries me a little in your post. T11 normal modes are nerfed hard and should be facerolled in current gear.
    "If this stuff is so absurdly easy...what's missing?" Your raiders are either under performing and should read up a little on EJ or mmo-champ or you're not doing the tactics for the boss right.

    Really just do 1-2 raidnights a week and you should be 6/7 normal firelands in no time. Raggy needs a bit more assignments and positioning, you need to assign specific dps to specific adds for the transition (at least on 10man). Heroic mode bosses you still need to perform the tactics well but the dps/healing requirements are mostly gone now (easily reachable).

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    723
    This is a tough one to answer. Yes you are whining a little bit, but your question is also completely valid and one that I believe many people ponder. The answer is also very complex.

    I need to put this bluntly and for that I apologize ...
    You probably have no idea how bad your guild/raid is, but by all standards it is indeed terrible. check this out. 88% of guilds that have killed shannox, have at this point killed Majordomo. 88% of all guilds with any progress in firelands are up to normal mode majordomo. That puts you guild in the bottom 12% percentile.

    That means you are so far down the ladder that of course it seems like the top is impossibly far up. Compare that to the rest of the world where 88% of the raiders in firelands have at least looked at normal Ragnaros and 70% of them have indeed killed him. Forget about the heroic mode raiders (which at this point accounts for over 50% of all raids in firelands ... but that's a separate issue). I say this not to be mean, but to give perspective which is the #1 most important thing for anyone to have when considering "why not me?"

    So how do YOU get there?
    #1: Get a new guild, possibly a new server. Pugs on my new server go 4/7 HC and at worse 6/7 normal. If you are that out of touch with people actually successfully killing current bosses then your guild is extremely backwards and possibly your faction/server.

    #2. Once you find a home with room to grow/potential, now you need to learn how to play your class/role. Don't just jump into Elitist Jerks as that will overwhelm a beginner, instead search for sites like tankspot or plusheal or whatever depending on your role/class. Just about every class and most specs have custom websites/forums full of useful information. Worst case just ask for help here as we have a fairly thriving community.

    #3. Then try. And keep trying. You will fail, you will be terribad, and people may even be mean to you. We all sucked once (some people still do). That said outside of this tier (where its a joke), heroic raiding is actually very challenging even for the seasoned player. For someone like you who is very green you need to first take your turn at learning normal mode raiding and have that down solid first before you work your way up. It's a long road that takes a commitment of time/life and effort ... but the rewards are there as well. At the top end of raiding it's not about passing the time, it's about challenging yourself and your team to the limits of your collective abilities and trying to do it better than the next raid.

    #4. Good luck out there.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    153
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad View Post
    Whats easy for one can be hard for another. but there are currently 43 guilds on my server being 1/7 hc or higher I'd say anyone who wants to put some effort in can get to heroic raids with the current nerfs in Firelands.

    "also working hard to grab a second Crackle in phase 1 but I'm getting side-tracked...." Sorry but is your dps that terrible? <-- This worries me a little in your post. T11 normal modes are nerfed hard and should be facerolled in current gear.
    "If this stuff is so absurdly easy...what's missing?" Your raiders are either under performing and should read up a little on EJ or mmo-champ or you're not doing the tactics for the boss right.

    Really just do 1-2 raidnights a week and you should be 6/7 normal firelands in no time. Raggy needs a bit more assignments and positioning, you need to assign specific dps to specific adds for the transition (at least on 10man). Heroic mode bosses you still need to perform the tactics well but the dps/healing requirements are mostly gone now (easily reachable).
    Actually it seems to be that they're trying to find the right balance of DPS to split. I believe they have a fair amount of ranged DPS, including a couple of high-end hunters so I THINK what's happening is they don't wanna let Onyxia Overload, but at the same time if they leave too many on she dies after one Crackle consistently and they're trying to milk out two since everyone's really comfortable with healing and their roles in that phase. When everyone's on the same target they seem to be pretty good from the numbers I've seen.

    I understand what you mean, though. It really shouldn't be a problem. I definitely feel like there's more than enough people who have gone through the content for it to just be plain and simple consensus by now. I basically just wondered if we were lacking something or were just that stupid or what went on. If it's really as simple as doing the dance and having the numbers one kinda wonders how many guilds can breeze through yet others can't. I suppose it's just one of those unexplainable oddities of life. People are just different. I simply wonder about the glamor that's been attached to raiding Heroic and being awesome. Everyone wants to be that way, but when people are putting in their best effort and they're not getting there, what do you tell them? Just..."try harder and make bigger numbers."? I know not much help can be offered without supplying specifics but I have a hard time thinking the group I know is the only group struggling with this.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    4,414
    Quote Originally Posted by Tylovan View Post
    Actually it seems to be that they're trying to find the right balance of DPS to split. I believe they have a fair amount of ranged DPS, including a couple of high-end hunters so I THINK what's happening is they don't wanna let Onyxia Overload, but at the same time if they leave too many on she dies after one Crackle consistently and they're trying to milk out two since everyone's really comfortable with healing and their roles in that phase. When everyone's on the same target they seem to be pretty good from the numbers I've seen.

    I understand what you mean, though. It really shouldn't be a problem. I definitely feel like there's more than enough people who have gone through the content for it to just be plain and simple consensus by now. I basically just wondered if we were lacking something or were just that stupid or what went on. If it's really as simple as doing the dance and having the numbers one kinda wonders how many guilds can breeze through yet others can't. I suppose it's just one of those unexplainable oddities of life. People are just different. I simply wonder about the glamor that's been attached to raiding Heroic and being awesome. Everyone wants to be that way, but when people are putting in their best effort and they're not getting there, what do you tell them? Just..."try harder and make bigger numbers."? I know not much help can be offered without supplying specifics but I have a hard time thinking the group I know is the only group struggling with this.
    One person on Ony should be enough to get her close enough that you can just turn around and nuke her when she gets past 90 energy.

    But yeah, I hate to say it, but if you're having a lot of trouble with the nerfed normal mode Nef, there's a serious performance or strategy issue there.

    1) Make sure that your raiders are reading up on their classes and their rotations. Gear makes a big difference, but playing properly makes a bigger difference.

    2) Make sure people are using the right addons, like DBM and power auras.

    3) Make sure people understand that 18k dps just isn't enough at this stage of the game. Don't let the people sitting at the top of your dps meter feel comfortable with the damage they're doing. #1 dps in your guild doesn't necessarily mean it's good dps. They should always be pushing to try to improve, even if they're parsing #1 on WoL.

    4) Make sure you're USING World of Logs to analyze what went wrong after each raid. See who's dying to a particular mechanic consistently and lean on them to concentrate on doing that particular mechanic right.

    There are a lot of things that can be done to bring up the performance of the raid as a whole. These are just a few.
    Last edited by Reev; 11-16-2011 at 09:27 AM.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
    I'm empty and aching and I don't know why
    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
    They've all gone to look for America

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,560
    A lot of people claim that a good raid leader isn't really necessary, but I personally call bunk on that for MOST situations. And to me it seems like your raid leader may be a problem too. If your raid leader doesn't understand the fight or how to divide up DPS, then that's a big problem. Bad strategies and telling people to do "wrong" things can put extra burden on an already fledgling guild. And raid leading isn't for everyone and not everyone that likes raid leading is good at it.

    I think in addition to what the above people said, having a great raid leader is necessary too, especially to get into heroic raiding.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    3,897
    For me it comes down to one single element:

    LUCK!

    I was a priest, so naturally I was guaranteed a raid spot in any guild on my server and when naxx 40 came out I joined the top guild on my server (world top 10 patchwerk world first gothic) but then the guild split up so I rerolled to tank, but when TBC came out I rerolled my tank from warrior to druid. I was in a pvp guild and I really wanted to pve at a top level again and was lucky enough that my friends guild was a top 25 US guild and were recruiting a druid tank because they only had 3 warriors as tanks. Anyway I was still really good friends with the top guild on my server I was leaving and especially their druid tank (which is why I could not simply join that guild and not have to transfer). Anyway, sunwell broke my guild up, as we had a very large pvp crowd even as a top 25 us raiding guild, but they all decided to leave for bg 9 right before the gate to twins opened. The next week we had a mass exodus. I was going to quit but my druid friend from my old server was quiting at the same time. So I transfered back to my old server and was in that guild for over 3 years before it broke up recently.

    Connections and luck, and an officer core who knows how to recruit and when to gkick people.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    4,414
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    For me it comes down to one single element:

    LUCK!

    I was a priest, so naturally I was guaranteed a raid spot in any guild on my server and when naxx 40 came out I joined the top guild on my server (world top 10 patchwerk world first gothic) but then the guild split up so I rerolled to tank, but when TBC came out I rerolled my tank from warrior to druid. I was in a pvp guild and I really wanted to pve at a top level again and was lucky enough that my friends guild was a top 25 US guild and were recruiting a druid tank because they only had 3 warriors as tanks. Anyway I was still really good friends with the top guild on my server I was leaving and especially their druid tank (which is why I could not simply join that guild and not have to transfer). Anyway, sunwell broke my guild up, as we had a very large pvp crowd even as a top 25 us raiding guild, but they all decided to leave for bg 9 right before the gate to twins opened. The next week we had a mass exodus. I was going to quit but my druid friend from my old server was quiting at the same time. So I transfered back to my old server and was in that guild for over 3 years before it broke up recently.

    Connections and luck, and an officer core who knows how to recruit and when to gkick people.
    Luck may have gotten you spots in those guilds and in environments that pushed you to be your best, but ability is what allowed you to stay there, and collective ability of your guilds is what allowed them to be successful.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
    I'm empty and aching and I don't know why
    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
    They've all gone to look for America

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    7
    Thegreatme basically nailed it. I'd go further and state that the attitude/motivation of the entire raid team will determine how far in progression a guild will go. I think you need to approach every fight (even farm content) trying to find ways to improve your play. Failing to do that won't prevent you from doing heroic modes, but it will prevent you from getting as far as you could have.

    But I'd add just one more thing that I've noticed. Initially, most raiders seem to focus purely on performance (dps/hps). Their dps will improve and their ego will grow. The problem is that they usually sacrifice raid awareness for their increased performance. This is fine if you only want to clear normal modes, but getting into heroic modes they can be a liability.

    Heroic mode raiding requires the player to be able to put out good numbers and be aware of their surroundings at the same time. There are too many heroic mode fights where "tunneling" can lead to wipes, or at least hurt the raid. Staghelm (Leaps and Orbs), Alysrazor (Meteors, Tornados, and the moving fire), Shannox (Not getting out of traps, or kiting rageface well), Ryholith (Magma lines)... I'd go on, but you get the idea.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    4,414
    Quote Originally Posted by CarrionFairy View Post
    But I'd add just one more thing that I've noticed. Initially, most raiders seem to focus purely on performance (dps/hps). Their dps will improve and their ego will grow. The problem is that they usually sacrifice raid awareness for their increased performance. This is fine if you only want to clear normal modes, but getting into heroic modes they can be a liability.

    Heroic mode raiding requires the player to be able to put out good numbers and be aware of their surroundings at the same time. There are too many heroic mode fights where "tunneling" can lead to wipes, or at least hurt the raid. Staghelm (Leaps and Orbs), Alysrazor (Meteors, Tornados, and the moving fire), Shannox (Not getting out of traps, or kiting rageface well), Ryholith (Magma lines)... I'd go on, but you get the idea.
    Well that's all true. Making life easy on the healers should be a priority. Every rogue should be using feint and cloak intelligently, watching where they stand, etc.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
    I'm empty and aching and I don't know why
    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
    They've all gone to look for America

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,029
    Don't discount lack of focus for causing progression issues and lack of focus tends to come from the RL not taking charge. What's your vent like? Are people chit chatting during the fight, before the fight and after the fight? I'm in two guilds, one working on heroic FL content and the other barely 6/7 normal. The vent in the heroic group during a boss fight is clear of chatter and only RL, tanks and healers say anything even then it's a couple words at a time; in the other guild it's constant, constant chatter about everything but the fight. It's not that there's huge difference in player quality; it's a huge difference in wanting to accomplish goals.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    144
    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatme View Post
    here's some things you could be missing:
    1) effort
    doing heroics requires a lot more effort. they require everyone in the raid to have a better understanding of how their class works than normal modes do. It's fairly common for people to simply not put in the effort that is required to be capable of viably doing heroic content.
    2) Motivation
    there are a large amount of players who simply don't care enough to put in the effort, if you aren't willing to put in the effort, you won't, and then you won't be able to do the heroic content.
    3) people
    your entire raid needs to be putting in the effort, and be motivated if you want to stand a chance at heroics. finding that many people who actually are willing to take the step up is not an easy thing to do.

    while time does play a roll in each of those 3 things, just because you don't have a ton of time doesn't mean you can't make the most of it. efficient use of ones time is something most people fail to do.
    I agree wholeheartedly with the above. I think anyone that puts in sufficient dedication and time can do heroics once they surround themselves with the right people.
    Additionaly, a comment on the "Omg that fight was easy" some people often say when something gets nerfed.
    Often it may be some guy just boasting, but i beleive more often then not it isint, or at least isint exclusevly boasting. My guild is 6/7 heroic. We arent the cream of the crop, we were only 1/7 heroic when the nerfs came out. We took 2 raid nights to down reg alyzrazor, and while we were working on it, none of us called it a easy fight. But we learn, and soon it was a really fun fight (specially for tanking). When nerfs came out we still downed it on reg once or twice before starting to down it on heroic, but after the nerfs all the "fun" of the fight seemed to have been taken away. I no longer needed to swap some gear or flask differently to meet the dps requirements, i could even stay the entire encounter dancing on brushfires. It just wasent challenging to the slightest anymore. The point im trying to hit is that once a guild downs a boss it becomes easy for them to down it again with that group, and people are many times not just boasting, but honestly dissapointed with nerfs.
    Might also be pride. You think of the work you spent progressing through a boss, got the acheivment for killing him, and then, after a week, there is a nerf and people that commited half of what you did are getting the same cruddy acheivment.
    Anyhow, im rambling and moving away from the point. I just wanted to point out that difficulty is relative to where you stand in progression. Before you downed something it may seem hard, once it is on farm it will feel like a faceroll.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    262
    A lot of important things have been said, but Iīd say that the most important thing is: Attitude

    To me, the most important reason for my own developement into a great player (yes, I am going there!), was the realization, that there is no reason that you shouldnīt be great at this game except you holding yourself back.

    - Everyone plays hundreds of hours before you step into the first raid
    - There is plentyfull information available in all languages and about everything that is even remotely of interest about classes, bosses and so on
    - With a decent UI and keybinding-setup, this game is only about pressing WASD + 4-5 buttons (with a modifier like Shift, Ctrl or Alt) + your mouse
    - Its very easy and doesnīt require a lot of time to get the neccessary gear for the current endgame (like it used to in the beginning)

    Every time I read about people stating that it is physically impossible for someone to react within a two-second window or that it requires shitloads of time to be good at this game, I die a little inside. Or that the main reason why someone is better, is the fact that they have better gear - no, they most likely have better gear, because they are better players overall.

    The key is to always look at what you can do to improve your play. You can always do better. If you donīt make mistakes, you can push your performance in terms of DPS/HPS. If you do that in your sleep, you can start helping out others by calling out signals, warnings and stuff like that.

    This, of course, applies also to a larger gourp of players, i.e. a raid.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    On the cloud.
    Posts
    2,279
    Rowdy, this is true, but there's literally thousands of players per server that just don't get that, and probably never will. There are people whom you can tell things like this and they'll nod and smile (small amount of drool perhaps) and never apply it. Then they'll continue to bitch. No need to die inside, such is life. There's morons all around us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,029
    The whole "they have better gear" whine, is so self defeating, it begs the question: "do they have better gear because maybe they try harder, they have defeated more difficult content and they have been rewarded with better gear?"

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    4,414
    Yeah, better gear absolutely makes a difference, but the normal mode content doesn't need heroic mode gear to complete. Hell, it doesn't even need normal mode gear, since it's set up to let you beat it in the gear of the previous tier so that you'll have normal mode gear by the time you start work on the heroics.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
    I'm empty and aching and I don't know why
    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
    They've all gone to look for America

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    7
    Yeah, better gear absolutely makes a difference,
    Yes it does, but unless you're severely under-geared it's more likely that poor performance is due to playing the class wrong.

    The whole "they have better gear" whine, is so self defeating
    That.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    4,414
    Quote Originally Posted by CarrionFairy View Post
    Yes it does, but unless you're severely under-geared it's more likely that poor performance is due to playing the class wrong.



    That.
    No one is disagreeing.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
    I'm empty and aching and I don't know why
    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
    They've all gone to look for America

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Marina del Rey, CA
    Posts
    3,122
    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    Yeah, better gear absolutely makes a difference, but the normal mode content doesn't need heroic mode gear to complete. Hell, it doesn't even need normal mode gear, since it's set up to let you beat it in the gear of the previous tier so that you'll have normal mode gear by the time you start work on the heroics.
    I was going to make that same point. People seem to think that "you killed it because you have better gear than I do...if *I* had your gear, I'd kill it too!". No. Wrong. My guild was in mostly-359 gear when we full cleared Firelands the first week it was out (hell, I had two blues on...my firelands spec was not my main spec in the previous tier). It's not about your gear, it's about your willingness to learn and be efficient when you're raiding (by running back fast and eating/drinking/buffing up quickly, not afking after a boss dies or during trash, always keeping things moving, etc. Lore has done a Marmot or two on the topic, I believe. It's probably the single most important part of a good raiding guild, to actually BE RAIDING when you're in the instance...not dicking around afk/bio/food/cat/dog/wife/whatever).

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts