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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Ragnaros and the Rest of Us

  1. #21
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    We've decided not to push for heroic ragnaros, for most of the reasons articulated. We decided that we'd mark Firelands as 'done' with the glory meta achievement, and then chill out until 4.3. Unless there is another round of nerfs, it's just not the kind of encounter that we as a group feel like breaking our balls for.

    But to take a step back and look at what went wrong, I think you need to look further than firelands. This started going wrong in Tier 11, with 'too many bosses'. So we roll into Tier 12 with only 7 bosses. It's difficult to have a meaningful progression curve when you only have 7 steps. Had Tier 11 been smaller, perhaps they'd have stuck to the original plan and had 2 instances in the T12 release - giving you a lot more flexibility to design in a progression curve.

    And then we have the blanket nerfs. You say that the first 6 bosses are easy - I don't think that's true. I think that the first 6 heroic modes were pretty appropriately tuned pre-nerf, perhaps even a little on the hard side, but that the nerfs came too late, were applied too evenly and too heavy handedly. I think there should have been smaller, more targeted nerfs to the bosses to reinforce the *curve*, rather than just make bosses 1-6 all 'accessible' in one blunt action.

    Overall, I think the tuning and scheduling of raid content in this expansion has been bad. I hope Blizzard are learning lessons for Pandaland.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    You're forgetting that guilds like Paragon were doing the pre-nerf version of Rag and probably doing it with gear that would get you rejected from most 6/7H guilds now. Plenty of 3-night/week guilds are downing H-Rag now.
    That wasn't the point, I was only suggesting that it was reasonable to think that if the 2 best raiding guilds in the world took 500-1000 attempts to bring down Ranaros pre-nerf and undergeared, that less skilled but solid raiding guilds with better gear would still require 500-1000 attempts to bring him down as well. Roughly 100-200 hours equaling months in some cases.

    It's just an observation I made to shed light on the issues the encounter is bringing up. How difficult is too difficult? And how much of a time sink is too much?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaidar View Post
    As Lore mentioned I don't think it has anything to do with Rag himself, but rather the difficulty, especially after the nerfs, of the first 6 bosses.

    One of the important things that is extremely relevant here is the motivation of the guilds/players who are able to spend this time working on rag currently. For those who are motivated by loot, Rag feels like a progression wall, you hit him and you get nothing for 2+ months that gives you a reward response. However, for those motivated by progression and who view loot as merely a means to an end, Rag is full of rewarding progression milestones. The first time everything clicks and seeds go flawlessly, the first time you push 1-2 meteors in phase 3 and so on. I think one major point Lore misses and that some replies in this thread have touched on is that it's really important for the raid leaders to identify and positively reinforce these progression milestones as actual accomplishments. Sure, that wont satisfy the loot driven players but if killing Rag is your goal than you really don't want those kind of players around anyways.
    Exactly what I meant with my huge post that no one read.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottpoet View Post
    That wasn't the point, I was only suggesting that it was reasonable to think that if the 2 best raiding guilds in the world took 500-1000 attempts to bring down Ranaros pre-nerf and undergeared, that less skilled but solid raiding guilds with better gear would still require 500-1000 attempts to bring him down as well. Roughly 100-200 hours equaling months in some cases.

    It's just an observation I made to shed light on the issues the encounter is bringing up. How difficult is too difficult? And how much of a time sink is too much?
    We raid 8 hours a week and have H:Rag dead, the issue is not the amount of time rag himself requires but that the bosses before him were so easy that guilds that normally wouldn't be butting heads with him until a new tier of gear was out are doing so. I'm sure the kill % for Rag is similar to Sinestra, but the kill% for the other 6 are way higher than they are for the heroics ranked just below her.
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  5. #25
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    Didn't Blizz say when they were doing the nerfs that the goal was for more people to see the heroic rag encounter? I agree that this isn't a very good design. I really don't know what they should do from here other than nerf rag.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Code_Man65 View Post
    So what needs to be done?
    10 man. Some suggestions, if you'd implement them all he might be to easy:

    P2
    - Increase the time before taking damage from world in flames by 0.5 seconds. Without a good internet connection or nearly perfect reaction times it can be tough task (way harder than heigan dance in vanilla Naxx when you could squeeze in a flash heal without taking damage..). I always eat a tick if i'm already out of the zone but still moving/jumping.
    - Seeds, make them slowable again. No need for stun & knockback but slow alone should be enough to bomb them to hell and won't require certain classes/speccs.
    - Seeds, don't get fixate on melees (unless you stack them). Your 1-2 melee should always be capable of helping on aoe without being a frostdk or abusing the bubble/bop immunity mechanic you already use on Staghelm for the seeds.
    P3
    - Increase the time before the first meteor spawn and the timespan to the second by ~ 10 seconds each, this way you won't need a demo warlock (= 50k dps thanks to mastery stacked doomguard) or a legendary yielder for the one meteor strat.
    - Decrease meteor immunity time by ~ 1 second or don't let it fixate the same side twice (eg: rangecheck, not fixating the nearest 5 people)
    P4
    - Have only one fire spawn at first during phase 4 and the second one some seconds time-displaced. This can screw you up even after a dozen of kills. With one fire at each side of the room and the fire-extinguisher not reachable for some seconds (eg due to meteor crossing that way) you'll have a hard time killing him.
    - Don't let trap spawn in his melee range, can be really nasty.
    - No meteor fixate on healers during that phase. Those two poor guys already have a hell of a job, especially with odd trap placements and overeager dps getting to many superheated stacks. Will give you even more troubles if you can't manage pushing him with only one meteor.

    --
    They already helped on two rather huge problems: the time it takes to get to phase 4 (-15% health on him), from 11+ minutes to only about 8 minutes. One meteor strat, killing the scions in time wasn't always possible for us before he emerged again, with the hitpoints reduction on them we can focus on dps'ing him for 90s.

    Ps: we needed about six weeks (~ 80 hours solely progression on him) and 400 trys to finally bring him down. A good point about that: we know all of our faults and how to fight him while asleep and it's highly unlikely we wipe on him without someone failing hard or RNG beats us (fire spawns mainly) before we beat him.

  7. #27
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    I think the biggest issue was that blizzard nerfed firelands heroics. I'll say it now, our guild isn't as good as months behind, but we're on a low horde pop server (3 alliance for every 1 horde player) and we were the top guild prior to the nerfs on 4 / 7.

    We spent 12 hours or so on beth and a kill wasn't in sight, the day after the nerfs we 1 shot her, baleroc took 1 day to down iirc.

    We could still have got potentially weeks out of firelands before being up against ragnaros, but instead blizzard have killed 2 bosses for us, leaving a bitter taste in our mouth and putting us on the fast track to ragnaros. We've made slow progression on him, we've just started altering our raid composition to help with seeds, first seed wave is fine but the second one sometimes claims a life and the third one is usually messy, we've sometimes hit the second transition but never in enough of a state to get past it.

    That said, I am absolutely fine with admitting that the boss might be too hard with us, but left wondering if that was the case, would we have passed beth / bale if blizzard hadn't nerfed the content? Would those have been enough to hold us up, are we that bad, should we not even be seeing ragnaros heroic?

    Hope that doesn't sound like a defeatist attitude, I'm certainly up for wiping on ragnaros until 4.3 rolls around, the little marks you make in progress, that first time you get a seed wave down before they reach the group etc, that's enough to keep me going until we get a kill.

    I just wish blizzard had left heroics alone (Original Ragnaros aside, the first nerf to him obviously hasn't trivialized him like the big nerf did). It's completely thrown things out of whack.

  8. #28
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    I had to take a deep breath before replying to this Weekly Marmot.....

    The root of your 'argument' Lore, I agree with. Progression should not be a gentle slope and then a sheer cliff face to overcome. I agree that Blizzard should have scaled the other bosses a bit. One could argue for a bell-curve type model, with the majority only able to kill say, 1-3 or 7, with a smaller proportion getting to 4-6 of 7, and the truly elite getting 7 of 7. I do agree that, when you have 10,000 guilds at 6/7, and then only 1,000 at 7/7, there's a huge difficulty "ramp" to be overcome. That might be an indicator of a poorly-designed increase in difficulty. (Which is funny because that was one of the recent blue-poster rant's that he ABSOLUTELY HATED that "fad" term... look it up. Kinda funny what Zax had to say).

    So, I've conceded to you your major point. Heroic Ragnaros not scaled well to other Firelands bosses. I had to take a deep breath at the start of this because I find the rest of this Weekly Marmot to be .... ignorant? Elitist? Out-of-touch?

    Let's give this some perspective. You are complaining about clearing what is currently, the TOP CONTENT offering in WoW. You've cleared normal. You got to experience a Ragnaros kill on normal, right? You made it through a BUNCH of heroic content. That's EXCELLENT! But no. You're not happy because you haven't gotten a heroic Ragnaros kill. I'm going to say this very clearly so there is no misunderstanding:

    Wake. Up.

    My stance, right now? I agree with your basic premise. Heroic bosses should have been tougher leading up to Ragnaros. To ensure that the content was challenging and gave the top 10,000 guilds something to really work at. But I would not make Heroic Ragnaros ANY easier than he is right now post-nerf.

    Again, I'm going to bounce back to my view on how LFR should work. LFR should be easy mode. Something for the casual to do to get to experience the full game and to be able to see all the tier content. Blizzard's gift to the gen-pop and full fan base.... that even the casual can see the full story unfold firsthand.

    Normal raiding should be a challenge for most guilds. Using Firelands as an example.... normal mode should be a challenge for 60-70% of the gaming population. Going 7/7 on normal should be a pretty fair accomplishment in of itself.

    Heroic raiding, should be geared to the true elite. No nerfs. No compromise. Because, after all.... at this level, you guys are competing with other players/guilds to be recognized as elite, or the best. Heroic mode should be the competitive level of gameplay used as the standard by which a guild can judge themselves versus the Paragons or Vodkas of the world. Yes.... I'm actually arguing that heroic mode should be harder. I'm arguing that heroic.... is diluted.

    Let's take a step back and look at an example. On my server, we have (as of last time I checked) 1 guild that is 7/7 heroic. Following that, about 6 guilds that are 6/7 heroic, and another 9 that have cleared any heroic content. From there, about 32 that are 6/7 NORMAL with only 9 7/7 normal. The rest from there are a smattering of various 5/7 to 1/7 on normal.

    The top guild on the server, world rank 252, has a heroic Ragnaros kill. I'm pretty ok with that. From there, I would rather see 2 or 3 with 6/7H, with the remaining 15 doing heroic content a smooth distribution between 2/7 and 5/7. Of the 32 that are 6/7 or 7/7 on normal... I'm pretty ok with that. Maybe even bump those numbers down a bit. And this is where the LFR, or easy mode comes in..... I can leave this content being challenging, without a high number of 6/7 or 7/7 normal because... I've MADE THE CONTENT ACCESSIBLE on LFR. I've enable people to experience and have declared, right out the gate, that normal and heroic are specifically made to be challenges, that I do NOT expect completion of these.

    I see people mocking the casual players on here every day. It's pretty subtle, but there is a definite undertone that mocks the person who is not completing heroic mode content. It's not everyone. Part of what brought me here was that, there are some truly FANTASTIC PEOPLE in the Tankspot community. This is NOT Elitist Jerks and there are people who genuinely seem to want to help other players improve themselves. That, to me.... is awesome. To those people, who are excellent players but are able to treat others with simple respect, thank you.

    On the flip side of the coin, there are a fair number of people who talk trash about other players who aren't at their level. Again, the mocking undertone to those who are not raiding 6/7 heroic mode. My scenario above is my gift, and curse, to you. Those people need a ball-crushing challenge. They also need that kick in the head to humble them some because guys.... there are 10,000 other guilds out there that are 6/7. When the day hits that 10,000 can go 1/7, 8k can go 2 or 3 of 7, and 5k can only hit 4 of 7, and 3k can go 5/7, and maybe 1,000 can hit 6/7..... then I'll buy into the hype. You people forget too often though that you're not Superman doing this all on your own. You are doing these things as part of a team. If I took you and dumped you in with one of the guilds that are 2/7 normal or such..... you would NOT be 6/7 heroic. Yet, you casually lump any player that isn't raiding heroic mode as being "fail". You tell them they suck and just need to get better. That's just flat out arrogance, and it IS born, in part, out of ignorance. That could just as easily be you. You are only as good as your team. And yet, these are the same people who complain that the game is "too easy". That it is being geared to the casual, that is, the "fail" player. But, as soon as you guys hit a challenge you can't beat..... it's "poor game design" or "Blizzard is too lazy to do X and Y". Maybe...... just maybe.... maybe you guys just aren't good enough. But no... that can't be it right?

    And that is why I had to take a deep breath, because across the board there are some seriously f**ked-up attitudes by people who play this game. Again though.... as I've said before, this game mirrors and maybe even reveals.... the human nature and character of the people who play it. Some of the attitudes really stink though.

    Lore... I think you're alright. I really do. I like to think that you can honestly relate to the whole player base. I also agree with what you state is the core argument to the Marmot this week, that content was not progressively challenging in Firelands for the heroic raider. At the same time...... come back to Earth man. 6/7 heroic is still a damn good accomplishment. I can understand that you're disappointed, but don't point the finger at Blizzard. I'm asking you to take a step back and get some perspective.

    Postscript: Yeah.... I'm aware my thoughts here are going to tick some people off and maybe earn me a banhammer. So be it. I know there are going to be a bunch of people who are going to accuse me of being a "hater" and probably worse. Again, so be it. For the few who actually gain some insight from this.... I just ask that you guys go back to your realms and try to make it a better place to raid for everyone. That you go back with a slightly different attitude, and make the community stronger.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    I think the biggest issue was that blizzard nerfed firelands heroics. I'll say it now, our guild isn't as good as months behind, but we're on a low horde pop server (3 alliance for every 1 horde player) and we were the top guild prior to the nerfs on 4 / 7.

    We spent 12 hours or so on beth and a kill wasn't in sight, the day after the nerfs we 1 shot her, baleroc took 1 day to down iirc.

    We could still have got potentially weeks out of firelands before being up against ragnaros, but instead blizzard have killed 2 bosses for us, leaving a bitter taste in our mouth and putting us on the fast track to ragnaros. We've made slow progression on him, we've just started altering our raid composition to help with seeds, first seed wave is fine but the second one sometimes claims a life and the third one is usually messy, we've sometimes hit the second transition but never in enough of a state to get past it.

    That said, I am absolutely fine with admitting that the boss might be too hard with us, but left wondering if that was the case, would we have passed beth / bale if blizzard hadn't nerfed the content? Would those have been enough to hold us up, are we that bad, should we not even be seeing ragnaros heroic?

    Hope that doesn't sound like a defeatist attitude, I'm certainly up for wiping on ragnaros until 4.3 rolls around, the little marks you make in progress, that first time you get a seed wave down before they reach the group etc, that's enough to keep me going until we get a kill.

    I just wish blizzard had left heroics alone (Original Ragnaros aside, the first nerf to him obviously hasn't trivialized him like the big nerf did). It's completely thrown things out of whack.
    I don't think that's a defeatist attitude. I think you have a good, healthy attitude towards it. I don't think that you should look at it as "are we that bad".... you should be able to look at it and say, "hell yeah.... my guild was able to clear everything except for Beth, Baleroc, Domo, and Rag on heroic" and know exactly where you guys stand and be able to have some pride in that. Heroic mode kills should all mean something. Period.

    Yes. It's Blizzard's fault for nerfing Firelands and making it easier to go 6/7. At the same time..... it is the community's fault that they have adopted the crap attitude that, "Anything less than a heroic Ragnaros kill is 'not succeeding' and anything less than 6/7 is 'fail'."

    No one tanks in a void.........

  10. #30
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    I am terrified of even attemping Firelands let alone heroic.

  11. #31
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    I'm sorry but your math makes no sense. This is the only way to measure boss difficulty that isn't entirely subjective. You reject the proposition that Rag is 10 times harder than anything else because "you can't measure boss difficulty by percentages like that" and then proceed to subjectively propose that he is "twice" as hard with no factual evidence to support your claim.

    Furthermore I would say that the raiding community is absolutely spread out that much. I mean you just need to look at wowprogress for proof. The first kill of hc Ragnaros took paragon 3 weeks while the most recent kill of Hc Ragnaros took place today about 18 weeks after 4.2 was released. This would suggest that Paragon is 9 times better (as it took then 1/9th of the time) than the most recent guild to kill hc rag and that's within a community of 1000 raiders. Extrapolating to the current 6/7 community of around 9000 raiders you would expect an even greater spread of player skill, perhaps even more than 10 times different.

    In my personal opinion hc rag is easily 10 times harder than everything else in the dungeon, especially on 25-man and I think what iholycow said: "Heroic raganros is not only a guild killer its a server killer" is entirely accurate. Certainly on my server, we are one of 2 guilds to have killed hc rag on 10-man and have basically given up killing it on 25 which is significantly damaging the server (perhaps this only applies to small servers like mine, but still an issue). That in combination with the 10 and 25-man shared lockout is killing all 25 man raiding in the server as well as almost all progress raiding as the good players are getting burned out or moving esewhere to raid 25's. Very sad to see.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    I don't think that's a defeatist attitude. I think you have a good, healthy attitude towards it. I don't think that you should look at it as "are we that bad".... you should be able to look at it and say, "hell yeah.... my guild was able to clear everything except for Beth, Baleroc, Domo, and Rag on heroic" and know exactly where you guys stand and be able to have some pride in that. Heroic mode kills should all mean something. Period.

    Yes. It's Blizzard's fault for nerfing Firelands and making it easier to go 6/7. At the same time..... it is the community's fault that they have adopted the crap attitude that, "Anything less than a heroic Ragnaros kill is 'not succeeding' and anything less than 6/7 is 'fail'."

    +1 Heroics are not for everyone, blizzard has said this, so there is nothing wrong with not taking down Heroic Ragnaros unless that is your guilds goals going into every tier of content.
    www.blessthemartyrguild.com

  13. #33
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    Month's Behind has wiped 182 on H ragnaros. I'm just going to say it and I don't care if I get an infraction, stop bitching lore.

    The 5 Stages of Heroic Ragnaros.
    Quote Originally Posted by leethaxor
    1) Denial
    No. No, I'm not doing another pull. I don't care if I get gkicked, this boss is stupid we suck its horrible.

    2) Anger
    WHY DID YOU TAKE SO MUCH DAMAGE. ITS AVOIDABLE. WHY AREN'T WE USING ANOTHER BALANCE DRUID. WHY DO YOU MAKE FIGHTS THIS HARD.

    3) Bargaining
    I'll buy you dinner if you play good. Seriously, kill him this attempt I'm taking the whole guild out for dinner.

    4) Depression
    But blizzard is just releasing the dragon soul in 2 or 3 months. Nobody is gonna care if we killed this boss or not.

    5) Acceptance
    Meh, one more pull.
    Last edited by leethaxor; 11-08-2011 at 12:21 PM.
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by paxbrat View Post
    I am terrified of even attemping Firelands let alone heroic.
    Just get in there and do it. Don't be afraid of it. Get in, get some attempts. If you can run ZA/ZG and do well there, then there's no reason to hide from it. Think of it this way.... raid bosses are like heroic dungeon bosses, scaled with more health to account for 10/25 players. Yes, there are sometimes mechanics that require coordination between 10/25 people, but again.... the basic concept is not all that different. The same basic rules apply. Avoid taking unneccessary damage.... dps the target well..... and do the right things in response to the boss mechanics.

    Don't sit on the sideline though not even trying. Get in, try it.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by leethaxor View Post
    Month's Behind has wiped 182 on H ragnaros. I'm just going to say it and I don't care if I get an infraction, stop bitching lore.
    I have to agree. For a boss of the level of Ragnaros, 182 wipes is no where near enough to start complaining about it. If a guild of the caliber of MB had 500+ wipes on heroic Rag, and still hadn't killed him, then I'd be worried. :P

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slyvar View Post
    I have to agree. For a boss of the level of Ragnaros, 182 wipes is no where near enough to start complaining about it. If a guild of the caliber of MB had 500+ wipes on heroic Rag, and still hadn't killed him, then I'd be worried. :P
    QFT

    My guild killed it our 300th attempt, 299 wipes. The fight is by no means hard, the only challenge offered by the encounter is keeping your raiders focused for the 15 minute long pulls.
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Slyvar View Post
    I have to agree. For a boss of the level of Ragnaros, 182 wipes is no where near enough to start complaining about it. If a guild of the caliber of MB had 500+ wipes on heroic Rag, and still hadn't killed him, then I'd be worried. :P
    I don't know where you got that small a number of wipes, they are at (by my count from WoL) at 285 wipes and counting on Heroic Rags.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    I had to take a deep breath before replying to this Weekly Marmot.....

    The root of your 'argument' Lore, I agree with. Progression should not be a gentle slope and then a sheer cliff face to overcome. I agree that Blizzard should have scaled the other bosses a bit. One could argue for a bell-curve type model, with the majority only able to kill say, 1-3 or 7, with a smaller proportion getting to 4-6 of 7, and the truly elite getting 7 of 7. I do agree that, when you have 10,000 guilds at 6/7, and then only 1,000 at 7/7, there's a huge difficulty "ramp" to be overcome. That might be an indicator of a poorly-designed increase in difficulty. (Which is funny because that was one of the recent blue-poster rant's that he ABSOLUTELY HATED that "fad" term... look it up. Kinda funny what Zax had to say).

    So, I've conceded to you your major point. Heroic Ragnaros not scaled well to other Firelands bosses. I had to take a deep breath at the start of this because I find the rest of this Weekly Marmot to be .... ignorant? Elitist? Out-of-touch?

    Let's give this some perspective. You are complaining about clearing what is currently, the TOP CONTENT offering in WoW. You've cleared normal. You got to experience a Ragnaros kill on normal, right? You made it through a BUNCH of heroic content. That's EXCELLENT! But no. You're not happy because you haven't gotten a heroic Ragnaros kill. I'm going to say this very clearly so there is no misunderstanding:

    Wake. Up.

    My stance, right now? I agree with your basic premise. Heroic bosses should have been tougher leading up to Ragnaros. To ensure that the content was challenging and gave the top 10,000 guilds something to really work at. But I would not make Heroic Ragnaros ANY easier than he is right now post-nerf.

    Again, I'm going to bounce back to my view on how LFR should work. LFR should be easy mode. Something for the casual to do to get to experience the full game and to be able to see all the tier content. Blizzard's gift to the gen-pop and full fan base.... that even the casual can see the full story unfold firsthand.

    Normal raiding should be a challenge for most guilds. Using Firelands as an example.... normal mode should be a challenge for 60-70% of the gaming population. Going 7/7 on normal should be a pretty fair accomplishment in of itself.

    Heroic raiding, should be geared to the true elite. No nerfs. No compromise. Because, after all.... at this level, you guys are competing with other players/guilds to be recognized as elite, or the best. Heroic mode should be the competitive level of gameplay used as the standard by which a guild can judge themselves versus the Paragons or Vodkas of the world. Yes.... I'm actually arguing that heroic mode should be harder. I'm arguing that heroic.... is diluted.

    Let's take a step back and look at an example. On my server, we have (as of last time I checked) 1 guild that is 7/7 heroic. Following that, about 6 guilds that are 6/7 heroic, and another 9 that have cleared any heroic content. From there, about 32 that are 6/7 NORMAL with only 9 7/7 normal. The rest from there are a smattering of various 5/7 to 1/7 on normal.

    The top guild on the server, world rank 252, has a heroic Ragnaros kill. I'm pretty ok with that. From there, I would rather see 2 or 3 with 6/7H, with the remaining 15 doing heroic content a smooth distribution between 2/7 and 5/7. Of the 32 that are 6/7 or 7/7 on normal... I'm pretty ok with that. Maybe even bump those numbers down a bit. And this is where the LFR, or easy mode comes in..... I can leave this content being challenging, without a high number of 6/7 or 7/7 normal because... I've MADE THE CONTENT ACCESSIBLE on LFR. I've enable people to experience and have declared, right out the gate, that normal and heroic are specifically made to be challenges, that I do NOT expect completion of these.

    I see people mocking the casual players on here every day. It's pretty subtle, but there is a definite undertone that mocks the person who is not completing heroic mode content. It's not everyone. Part of what brought me here was that, there are some truly FANTASTIC PEOPLE in the Tankspot community. This is NOT Elitist Jerks and there are people who genuinely seem to want to help other players improve themselves. That, to me.... is awesome. To those people, who are excellent players but are able to treat others with simple respect, thank you.

    On the flip side of the coin, there are a fair number of people who talk trash about other players who aren't at their level. Again, the mocking undertone to those who are not raiding 6/7 heroic mode. My scenario above is my gift, and curse, to you. Those people need a ball-crushing challenge. They also need that kick in the head to humble them some because guys.... there are 10,000 other guilds out there that are 6/7. When the day hits that 10,000 can go 1/7, 8k can go 2 or 3 of 7, and 5k can only hit 4 of 7, and 3k can go 5/7, and maybe 1,000 can hit 6/7..... then I'll buy into the hype. You people forget too often though that you're not Superman doing this all on your own. You are doing these things as part of a team. If I took you and dumped you in with one of the guilds that are 2/7 normal or such..... you would NOT be 6/7 heroic. Yet, you casually lump any player that isn't raiding heroic mode as being "fail". You tell them they suck and just need to get better. That's just flat out arrogance, and it IS born, in part, out of ignorance. That could just as easily be you. You are only as good as your team. And yet, these are the same people who complain that the game is "too easy". That it is being geared to the casual, that is, the "fail" player. But, as soon as you guys hit a challenge you can't beat..... it's "poor game design" or "Blizzard is too lazy to do X and Y". Maybe...... just maybe.... maybe you guys just aren't good enough. But no... that can't be it right?

    And that is why I had to take a deep breath, because across the board there are some seriously f**ked-up attitudes by people who play this game. Again though.... as I've said before, this game mirrors and maybe even reveals.... the human nature and character of the people who play it. Some of the attitudes really stink though.

    Lore... I think you're alright. I really do. I like to think that you can honestly relate to the whole player base. I also agree with what you state is the core argument to the Marmot this week, that content was not progressively challenging in Firelands for the heroic raider. At the same time...... come back to Earth man. 6/7 heroic is still a damn good accomplishment. I can understand that you're disappointed, but don't point the finger at Blizzard. I'm asking you to take a step back and get some perspective.

    Postscript: Yeah.... I'm aware my thoughts here are going to tick some people off and maybe earn me a banhammer. So be it. I know there are going to be a bunch of people who are going to accuse me of being a "hater" and probably worse. Again, so be it. For the few who actually gain some insight from this.... I just ask that you guys go back to your realms and try to make it a better place to raid for everyone. That you go back with a slightly different attitude, and make the community stronger.
    /standing ovation
    www.blessthemartyrguild.com

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    971
    Quote Originally Posted by Code_Man65 View Post
    I don't know where you got that small a number of wipes, they are at (by my count from WoL) at 285 wipes and counting on Heroic Rags.
    Your double counting the weeks from the previous month, I made that mistake myself. I recounted by date, and got 179.

    Here is a paste bin of when they wipes occurred
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    262
    @ Leucifer

    Absolutely love your post!

    I personally - and my whole raid - love Ragnaros heroic, because it is the first fight in a long time that really forces you to progress and improve. Every action, every move is important and can (has to) be refined in order to get further into the fight and it really makes a difference. That, to me, is what raiding is all about: working on something, getting a little bit better all the time as a player and as a team until you finally reach the mountain top and kill the boss. If you donīt enjoy this, than heroic mode raiding is not the place for you, actually.

    But you canīt blame the players, really. We just see the issues with a bad design of the Firelands and that the first six bosses were too easy overall, plus the fact, that Blizzard "pushed" a lot more players into heroic modes than ever before by nerfing the content extremely fast and on a broad basis. Reality is that there shouldnīt be 50+% of the raiding population doing heroic modes right now.

    Especially Shannox, Ryolith and Staghelm were way too easy for heroic mode bosses. Beth'tilac and Baleroc were "okay", because the gear check was pretty hard, but mechanic-wise they werenīt difficult at all. That caused too many raids going 6/7 too fast and they are now stuck on (in comparison) incredibly difficult Ragnaros heroic. I think that a smoother curve of difficulty would also increase the performances progressing on Ragnaros, to be honest. At least for us it felt like some players really had to shake some rust off of themselves in order to perform up to their potential - it just wasnīt neccessary before.

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