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Thread: No tanking news in blizzcon?

  1. #1
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    No tanking news in blizzcon?

    Anyone else concerned with the complete lack of anything at blizzcon about the new active mitigation models they have been talking about? I would think they would be spouting it as a selling point for the xpac if they actually had any idea what they were going to do with it yet.

  2. #2
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    We do still have two panels but yes, the tanking model hasn't really been spoken about.

    We'll have to see if the class and items panel at 4pm says something!

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  3. #3
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    Nothing about tankchanges.

    Just

    Can we have another tank legendary
    Legendary needs a story to go with it, we aren't taking turns with the classes or specs, we put them in where they fit in the story. If there is an opportunity you will get one! A legendary shield would be great.


    At least they think a shield legendary is great

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    The way I see it a big reason why Cata Heroics were nerfed was because of incompetent tanks. The reason why they made threat generation easier then its ever been is because of incompetent tanks. The easier it is to tank the more satisfied the rest of the group is and more tanks tend to be available.

    Active mitigation sounds awesome but if they make something for tanks to fail at well then...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    The way I see it a big reason why Cata Heroics were nerfed was because of incompetent tanks. The reason why they made threat generation easier then its ever been is because of incompetent tanks. The easier it is to tank the more satisfied the rest of the group is and more tanks tend to be available.

    Active mitigation sounds awesome but if they make something for tanks to fail at well then...
    More than enough blame to go around - incompetent DPS who didn't know there were cc abilities on their bars and thought everything was a WoLK zerg; healers having to suddenly watch their mana and had to get used to not seeing every bar green. Lots of reasons not just the tanks.

    Threat must have gotten to be a pain to balance; in that what do you do when you have burst dps blowing cooldowns and dishing out a quick 25k dps - path of least resistance was to just buff threat through the roof and not waste any more developer time on it. Plus, I agree with Blizz threat is just not one of those mechanics that's fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    More than enough blame to go around - incompetent DPS who didn't know there were cc abilities on their bars and thought everything was a WoLK zerg; healers having to suddenly watch their mana and had to get used to not seeing every bar green. Lots of reasons not just the tanks.

    Threat must have gotten to be a pain to balance; in that what do you do when you have burst dps blowing cooldowns and dishing out a quick 25k dps - path of least resistance was to just buff threat through the roof and not waste any more developer time on it. Plus, I agree with Blizz threat is just not one of those mechanics that's fun.
    I personally found it among the the things that was fun about tanking back in TBC, it was probably annoying for DPS though. Making threat a non issue though just adds to the lack of depth tanking currently has.

    As for the old Cata Heroics I suppose I'm just bias cause as a tank all i had to do was grab a DPS buddy and there wasn't a thing we couldn't pull off whether we were stuck with bad healers or crappy DPS. Queuing solo as a healer or DPS on the other hand didn't give you that kind of weight in a 5 man.

  7. #7
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    I'll pass along what I found out, as I had an opportunity to bring this up with the community managers.

    - They are definitely looking at making active mitigation more of a part of tanking. Randy and I talked about how various tanking abilities play out in raids and the feedback from the two I had a chance to talk to, they both agreed that they wanted tanking cooldowns to be something "heroic", not a planned part of a rotation in fights. In our chat, it was clear they didn't want to go the route of "Boss does ability A.... you must use tank cd A to counter it." They both emphasized that they wanted tank play to be really meaningful and that we'd have to make split-second decisions.

    - Along those lines, they talked about how dps always gets to "compete with itself" and rewards players with "I did more dps that time! Yes!", but that tanks were fairly stale. They wanted to give us something that makes us go, "Wow! I did much better that time!"

    - Feedback regarding class changes. One of the things that they said stood out, was the feedback from the DK community. His example was, "Out of the rogue community, our survey came back with like 200 different things rogues wanted to see changed. What was weird was with the DK community, it was the same 5 things time and again. I actually called up Greg (referring to GC) and said, 'Greg, you're not going to believe this....'. The feedback we got from the DK community was that similar." I replied back, "Almost like there was collusion?" He replied to me, "It was clear that it wasn't, but we were shocked at how it kept coming back to the same five things with each respondent. That really got our attention."

    - We talked about changes between BC, WotLK, and Cata and how it's all about CTC currently and how it affected play between the 4 tank classes. They agreed that passive abilites needed to be in and discussed how they were changing blade barrier to bring the clases more in line with each other. They also said though that they still want each of the tanks to have a distinct style of play, but wanted to make each more active. From the general discussion, DK's would get a little better with passive mitigation and bears, warriors, and paladin would be getting more things to do.

    I thought about asking them about warriors and any planned changes to rage. Didn't get around to it. The three of us went around for about a solid half hour talking about the things above. The main take-aways were that, they are giving tanks a LOT of attention and want to give us more to do in the sense of having more ways to impact our own performance. Again, going back to what I said before, they want us to "feel heroic".

    Hope that helps. No, I didn't bring a notepad or recorder. Kinda wish I had. Oh, and we did talk about the discussions here versus on forums. He understood that forums could be troll-ville sometimes, but did ask that we at least check in there and try to give feedback, as they do use that as their primary source for fan feedback.
    No one tanks in a void.........

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    We're loosing Demo Shout and Roar. Was mentioned during the Druid Talent Discussion as Demoralizing Roar is now an AoE Disorient.

    I would not be surprised if they're getting rid of all Buffs/Debuffs. None of the talents had any side effects, and Scorch is now an optional talent for mobile dps. Plus no more buff totems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    The way I see it a big reason why Cata Heroics were nerfed was because of incompetent tanks. The reason why they made threat generation easier then its ever been is because of incompetent tanks. The easier it is to tank the more satisfied the rest of the group is and more tanks tend to be available.

    Active mitigation sounds awesome but if they make something for tanks to fail at well then...
    The folk I talked with didn't go much into threat mechanics.

    The idea behind "active mitigation", from the way they talked, made it sound more like they don't want to do "mitigation rotation" and make it more of a thing that we had to make meaningful gameplay choices.

    As for Cata heroics.....
    Sure. There are a fair number of "incompetent tanks". As well as incompetent dps and healers. Again, no one tanks in a void. If the dps is constantly pounding on a target that I'm not actively tanking, even AFTER I mark the thing with a square for a cc or making it lower priority, well hell..... you really want to blame me / the tank? How many times am I supposed to taunt the thing back on to me? Or better yet... how many times do I take the courtesy of typing in "r?" and getting back no replies before I should pull?

    Managing threat, to a point, is fun. Managing threat against dps that have no concept of threat management is aggravating. I have no issues on my hunter or rogue with popping feign death or feint as I get close to ripping aggro to allow the tank to hold a target, but that's because..... I TANK! Most of the dps I know are too lazy or stupid or ignorant to do these things.

    That's why it doesn't work. You have a much larger player population that ignores the concept. I mean, hell, a LOT of tanks I know simply don't care to teach a new tank how to tank and do it well, much less take the time to educate dps on what the tank needs from them. That's a systemic or culture problem, and frankly, I challenge you to become part of the solution by helping to make players around you better, because in the end, that's the only way that will change. It'll take a push from within the community to demand a higher level of skill to play and that simply isn't there.

    No one tanks in a void.........

  10. #10
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    That's why I made a futile attempt to teach my brother how to warrior tank (Hard to teach what I don't know, but dang it I tried!) before he cancelled. I know how to run a DK tank like a well-oiled machine, and while the movement is vastly different and the abilities do different things, it's essentially the same basic principal. "Hit everything hard.. in the face.. until it wants to hit you back despite getting banged on by other people." In the end, he went fury with his off spec, and redid his Arms for PVP, but he gave it a shot. He just doesn't have the attention span for tanking.
    I'm way better at holding my liquor than a panda.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipton View Post
    We're loosing Demo Shout and Roar. Was mentioned during the Druid Talent Discussion as Demoralizing Roar is now an AoE Disorient.

    I would not be surprised if they're getting rid of all Buffs/Debuffs. None of the talents had any side effects, and Scorch is now an optional talent for mobile dps. Plus no more buff totems.
    Yeah. Saw that with the talent trees. Looks like they're looking to change the idea of "boss debuffs" for tank purposes. You have to admit though, if you remove the stacking of various buffs and debuffs, you can tailor an encounter better. The difference then, between the bottom-end and top end becomes narrower. Not as much an issue with 25 man where you can have a wider range of classes in raid comp, but for 10 mans, a group that can stack a bunch of buffs compared to a group that can't has a considerable advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charon View Post
    That's why I made a futile attempt to teach my brother how to warrior tank (Hard to teach what I don't know, but dang it I tried!) before he cancelled. I know how to run a DK tank like a well-oiled machine, and while the movement is vastly different and the abilities do different things, it's essentially the same basic principal. "Hit everything hard.. in the face.. until it wants to hit you back despite getting banged on by other people." In the end, he went fury with his off spec, and redid his Arms for PVP, but he gave it a shot. He just doesn't have the attention span for tanking.
    Well, kudos for trying. And I wouldn't necessarily say he lacks the attention span. Part of it is warrior tanking is just flat out different. Example: A DK has an easier time grabbing aggro on a spread-out group. Drop DnD in one spot, blood boil and heart strike on another..... hit pestilence once they are all in range. For a warrior, that's trickier. It's a positioning game. Warrior might have to run in, slap thunderclap on first bunch, then charge the second and pop shockwave, then pivot and do a rend/thunderclap combo to seal it on all targets. And even then, it's easy for a dps to screw it up by laying down withering dps on something from the first pack.

    Even then, how differently dps players react makes a HUGE difference. I've seen mages that will just sit there and let a mob roll on up and mash their face waiting for me to taunt it. Others, like my bro, will pop blink, land right next to me, dragging the mob in to the group, pop frost nova.... then chug out.

    Even then, a warrior tank has to contend with the damage output of a one-hander. Once a warrior gets vengeance built up, they hold threat nicely. But without vengeance, man..... they will struggle to put down enough damage to hold aggro. That class is such a contradiction. I want to reduce damage as a tank, but want to have damage received in order to generate adequate vengeance and rage.

    Learning to tank takes patience, and some fairly thick skin. As a tank, you are in the spotlight and if you're not competent, people notice immediately. It's not like dps where people can kinda "hide". Tank success is in some ways, very binary. Live, or die.
    Last edited by Leucifer; 10-24-2011 at 02:55 PM.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  12. #12
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    Yeah. Saw that with the talent trees. Looks like they're looking to change the idea of "boss debuffs" for tank purposes. You have to admit though, if you remove the stacking of various buffs and debuffs, you can tailor an encounter better. The difference then, between the bottom-end and top end becomes narrower. Not as much an issue with 25 man where you can have a wider range of classes in raid comp, but for 10 mans, a group that can stack a bunch of buffs compared to a group that can't has a considerable advantage.
    Yup. It defo looks a response to the 25 vs 10 balancing issues. Overall this will make 10 man harder for well organized raid groups, and easier for the poorly organized raids. 25 mans should benefit with slightly less lag with removing buff spam and better balance with 10 man.

    They're also giving most Talent/Classes with their own form of Knockback/Slow/ect. Another bonus for smaller raid comps.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipton View Post
    Yup. It defo looks a response to the 25 vs 10 balancing issues. Overall this will make 10 man harder for well organized raid groups, and easier for the poorly organized raids. 25 mans should benefit with slightly less lag with removing buff spam and better balance with 10 man.

    They're also giving most Talent/Classes with their own form of Knockback/Slow/ect. Another bonus for smaller raid comps.
    I wouldn't say it makes it harder for "well-organized raid groups". A well organized group will still do well. I do think that it will push things away from "having" to have gaps covered. Example: a 10 man would be more likely to run 2 fury warriors vice skipping one and adding a ret pally just for the extra buff. I actually think that, in a way, it makes player skill more important. Stacking buffs has been basically "padding" a group. "We killed boss A because we had enough buffs to push our dps over the top" vice "We killed boss A because we played well enough to do enough damage".

    Knockbacks and slows and all that goodness does help ensure that SOMEONE in the 10 man will have the ability to perform a needed role. Especially since they said that talents would be more like the glyph system, changeable on the spot before combat.

    I think what it really does is level the field between 25 man and 10 man raid comps. Consider, how would you compare a 20k dps mage in a 10 man versus a 20k dps mage in a 25 man presently? Chances are, the one in the 25 man is getting an extra buff of some sort that is pushing their dps meter higher. If both do about the same, because they are effectively "buff normalized", it changes what devs will be able to do with bosses in raid.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    Well, kudos for trying. And I wouldn't necessarily say he lacks the attention span. Part of it is warrior tanking is just flat out different. Example: A DK has an easier time grabbing aggro on a spread-out group. Drop DnD in one spot, blood boil and heart strike on another..... hit pestilence once they are all in range. For a warrior, that's trickier. It's a positioning game. Warrior might have to run in, slap thunderclap on first bunch, then charge the second and pop shockwave, then pivot and do a rend/thunderclap combo to seal it on all targets. And even then, it's easy for a dps to screw it up by laying down withering dps on something from the first pack.
    DK AoE Aggro is quite impressive. Also, through my experiments I was able to hold aggro pretty well on his warrior. There was about as much finesse to it in my hands as trying to pick up a grain of rice with jaws of life, but it worked out. He literally doesn't have the attention span to tank. I'm not saying that as an insult, just being honest. I ran with him a couple times, and he just kind of let me tank... on my shaman. He was in the right stance, all that stuff. Just couldn't hold aggro worth beans. It might be better now that he's off the dope, but as I said, he's currently unsubscribed.
    I'm way better at holding my liquor than a panda.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipton View Post
    Yup. It defo looks a response to the 25 vs 10 balancing issues. Overall this will make 10 man harder for well organized raid groups, and easier for the poorly organized raids. 25 mans should benefit with slightly less lag with removing buff spam and better balance with 10 man.
    Thus making the Raid Finder less of a cluster.. well, you know.
    I'm way better at holding my liquor than a panda.

  16. #16
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    Overall I'm sad they didn't really address much of anything as far as the new tanking model is concerned... it really leads me to believe they aren't sure how to implement what they want yet. They have a lot of things on the want list that never make it in game.

    Also from a tanking standpoint I'm not a fan of the new talent model. Pure dps classes look like it works well with 1 talent model for all three specs, but for pretty much any hybrid class the new model doesn't seem to fit well. Personally I think they should have different talent trees for each spec for hybrid classes... I mean look at the druid talents... each talent does like 15 things in order to accommodate all the specs. Warrior tanking in particular doesn't even seem like it would even use the warrior talents listed. Sure shockwave is on the list but it's not particularly a "tanky" ability, and the only one that really gives any actual tanking benefit outside of utility is the self healing tier... which all classes have one self healing tier I think.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takethecake View Post
    Overall I'm sad they didn't really address much of anything as far as the new tanking model is concerned... it really leads me to believe they aren't sure how to implement what they want yet. They have a lot of things on the want list that never make it in game.

    Also from a tanking standpoint I'm not a fan of the new talent model. Pure dps classes look like it works well with 1 talent model for all three specs, but for pretty much any hybrid class the new model doesn't seem to fit well. Personally I think they should have different talent trees for each spec for hybrid classes... I mean look at the druid talents... each talent does like 15 things in order to accommodate all the specs. Warrior tanking in particular doesn't even seem like it would even use the warrior talents listed. Sure shockwave is on the list but it's not particularly a "tanky" ability, and the only one that really gives any actual tanking benefit outside of utility is the self healing tier... which all classes have one self healing tier I think.
    Yeah. There really was no "tanking panel" or anything of the sort specific to that aspect of the game. The did discuss it some in the paladin talents, but there wasn't really a specific focus on that. Of course, chances are Blizzcon 2012 will hit before the next expansion is released, so I'm guessing we'll see a lot of that discussed in next year's Blizzcon. Blizzcon will probably still be an October event, and MoP will likely be a holiday season release.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charon View Post
    DK AoE Aggro is quite impressive. Also, through my experiments I was able to hold aggro pretty well on his warrior. There was about as much finesse to it in my hands as trying to pick up a grain of rice with jaws of life, but it worked out. He literally doesn't have the attention span to tank. I'm not saying that as an insult, just being honest. I ran with him a couple times, and he just kind of let me tank... on my shaman. He was in the right stance, all that stuff. Just couldn't hold aggro worth beans. It might be better now that he's off the dope, but as I said, he's currently unsubscribed.
    Lmao.... not to laugh at your brother but that might have a small impact. Like I said, aggro for warrior is tricky. It helps them if they get a head start before the firepower rolls in. I played around with my build a little on my warrior, and found that when I gemmed up for straight defensive purposes, my aggro/threat gen suffered. Something just felt off.

    Only place I've had threat issues with my DK, in fact all my tanks, was on the first group of lynx in ZA as you approach the Lynx boss. The group that you first hit near that lake? Yeaaaaaah. Really touchy bunch. DnD didn't get their attention, and neither does blood boil. Best thing I've seen there is just stack the group, let all kitteh come to the tank, then peel off.

    Oh.... and when dps do the aforementioned blaze-away-on-a-random-target thing. When all 3 dps in a 5 man have picked different targets, the problem is not the tank.


    Anyway, final edit........
    Blizzcon was fun. I think Mists of Pandaria will turn out fine. The player base has proven adaptable time and time again. They are trying to give us meaningful choices I think. Honestly, when you get to talk to the devs and can see that these guys are truly passionate about the game and WANT to give us a good product, it eases some tension.

    Yes, the new talent trees will give us fewer choices. Each of those choices will have a bigger impact on what we do though. I myself looked at some of the talents and saw some of the tiers.... I wanted all 3 abilities. Or at least two of them. Good example being the one tier with bone shield in it for DK. There was at least one other ability I looked at and thought, "Oh damn.... that's nice too!"

    I've seen a lot of the comments on various websites, and I do think that a good chunk of it is whining for the sake of whining. People are spouting a lot of doom and gloom without thinking deeply on the subject.
    Last edited by Leucifer; 10-24-2011 at 04:39 PM.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  18. #18
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    I wouldn't say it makes it harder for "well-organized raid groups". A well organized group will still do well. I do think that it will push things away from "having" to have gaps covered. Example: a 10 man would be more likely to run 2 fury warriors vice skipping one and adding a ret pally just for the extra buff. I actually think that, in a way, it makes player skill more important. Stacking buffs has been basically "padding" a group. "We killed boss A because we had enough buffs to push our dps over the top" vice "We killed boss A because we played well enough to do enough damage".
    Harder as in Blizzard will no longer tune 10 man raids for a poorer raid comp. You'll no longer be able to come in with a 10%-15% advantage because you've covered all the buff/debuffs. But as you say, player skill will become more important . But in general groups that can already cover all the buffage will loose an entire Tier's Gear Upgrade worth of advantage in MoP. Overall it will be a good thing for both raid sizes.

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