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Thread: Tank class combination for 10man raid

  1. #1
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    Tank class combination for 10man raid

    Hi,

    I was not quite sure if I should put this thread in here or into some general/strategy subforum, but I'm afraid that this question might be too "nooby", so I decided for this subforum :-)

    Situation is, a few friends of mine and me are planning to do some raids. Nothing fancy since most people in the group have no raid experience, but still my tankfriend and me (I'm a tank as well) expect to shoulder a lot of additional burden (I see lots of Lay-on-hands/battlerezzes in action already *g*). So we want to have the best tank combination possible.

    Now I have a paladin and a dk, and my friend has a paladin and a warrior. We were discussing which combination would be favorable for our raid, and to our astonishment it seems that going pala/pala tanks has the most advantages. Intuitively, we thought that having 2 different tank classes would be better, but that seems not quite the case.

    I mean, we have another dk in our group, so he can use horn of winter and battlerez. Except from that we see no real reason for a dk tank - even for magic damage spikes paladins could use ardent defender.
    The only real advantages of the warrior would be intercept and the raid+20%hp cd. The first one can be substituted with hand of protection, the second one with the raid bubble.

    Aside from that, using two palas seems to have lots of synergy ... we could chain not only hand of salvation, but lay-on-hand two people in the raid, hand of protection, hand of freedom, use hand of sacrifice on each other and so on. Using two raidbubbles in a row seems to be huge as well. Also, two auras!
    True, we would be missing charge and deathgrip, but are those really that important in boss fights?

    Now, my question is, is there an error in our thinking? If so, where is it? We are sceptical to believe that paladins have so much more to offer than warrior and dks that it would be favorable to use two paladin tanks in a raid. If this was the situation, everyone would do that, no? So please tell me, where did we go wrong? Should one of us give up is paladin to play dk or warrior?

    PS.: Bear is out of question because 1) neither of us has one and 2) we don't like to play the class. Just personal preference. No offense druids!^^

    Thanks in advance,
    JiaYow
    Last edited by JiaYow; 10-14-2011 at 04:11 AM. Reason: Forgot additional info

  2. #2
    If you want an easier upramp in your gearing up time i would recommend a druid and a plate user since thoose wont be "stealing" eachothers loot.

  3. #3
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    Wow that was a fast reply. Thanks^^
    It's just that neither of us want to play a bear. Just personal preference, so we would be willing to sacrifice druid utility and gear advantages for our personal happiness. The choice stand between dk / two pally / warrior.

  4. #4
    Warriors got a LOT of moveability, charge, leap, intervene. Thoose can be quite handy at nearly every single fight imo.

  5. #5
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    other things to take into account for warrior tank.
    sunders (increased melee damage)
    demo shout, reduced boss damage
    intervene (hard to use but can reduce your other tanks incoming damage)
    vigilance (unlimited taunts...handy on beth for pulling down spinners) + vengence stacks
    mobility (shannox rip limb tank getting away while stacks drop off plus other fights)

  6. #6
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    Tank class combination for 10man raid

    Don't forget that warriors also have vigilence. Unlimited taunts can be very powerful. Makes some of the mechanics like beth'tilac so much easier. My recommendation would be pally/warrior or pally/pally.

    In the end, at the level of expierence you suggested, any combo that you play best and enjoy playing will be most effective. 10 man is more sensitive to comp issues but not usually make or break.
    "he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng

  7. #7
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    I (pally) tank aside with a warrior and, though we have to share the few drops blizz ocasionaly drops us (finally had the dumb shield drop for the first time ever yesterday on heroic baleroc), i think its great. As mentioned above, warriors movementation can be a real asset (I would hate to have to run around with the dog to reset stacks on shannox - our warrior takes the dog and just does a leap+intervine combo to give him enough distance for a nice slow time to get back to the spear).
    you can actauly down everything with any combination of tanks, so nothing you do will be "wrong". Just having 2 of the same class seems terribly lame (i wouldent like it much).

  8. #8
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    Re: Tank class combination for 10man raid

    Hi,

    I'm in a pure 10-man guild and have been for a few years now, so I think I have seen my far share of tank combos. Personally, I'm one them healers ).

    My favourite tank combo would be the pally / dk one, but you need to remember that it's all about the raid composition, not just what you two tanks bring.

    Whats' your healing team going to look like? Holy paladins are pretty solid for tank healing, so if you can muster one of them, then you won't need 2 pally tanks for the auras. Getting a druid or a holy priest for raid healing will give you nice cover of raid healing, and the druid will bring Gift of the Wild which equals the Kings buff (not the aura though, but that can be gotten from the holy paladin).

    Think of the entire raid composition when deciding on who to bring basically.

    As an example, our raid setup normally looks like this:
    • tanks: Dk and Paladin - paladin quite often on boss and dk on adds, or even going dps if it's a 1-tank fight.
    • healers: disc priest, holy paladin, resto druid - priest and paladin on one tank each and assisting on raid with druid focusing on raid. Some fights being more aoe intensive makes the paladin pretty much solo on the tanks with me (priest) going nuts on aoe healing as well. Coordinate raid cooldowns for the win
    • melee: rogue and feral druid - this varies with a shammy or a warrior instead of the druid occasionally
    • range: arcane mage, affliction warlock and most often a balance druid, but sometimes a hunter instead - gives us a balance of strong single-target dps and aoe.
    I know there are hundreds of different setups that are viable, and I'm in no way trying to say that our setup is better than any other, but I want you to remember that a raid composition has to take all classes/roles into consideration for it to be possible to say what will be best for you. We even had to replace our paladin tank on our last Ragnaros kill, two days ago, with a warrior, and that combo worked quite nice there as well (warr/dk).


    Best of luck starting to raid, and remember to have fun and enjoy the game - raiding with friends is the best and is really what's keeping me in this game

    Cheers,
    /Prisnagka
    officer and former gm of Betrayed @ Zenedar-EU

  9. #9
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    Honestly I don't have much experience with the current raid content, I just raided a lot in ICC and can't remember a boss where charge/intercept etc. would have been critically important. There was plenty of time to run anywhere "manually". Instead, I do remember I loved the paladin running speed when kiting the oozes (can't remember if it was festergut or rotface, but you guys sure know what I mean). If the high mobility of warriors is really helpful in the current content (and not just situational gimmick like, say, nitro boosts) we will definitely take this into consideration. Thank you!

    Regarding the buffs/debuffs and raid composition, we did try to figure out what we would gain and lose with every tank composition. We know we will have, among others, an enhancement shaman and a dps dk, and also warlock and a holy priest.

    What we figured was that the (tanking) death knight has no more buffs or debuffs than the dps dk, so we "scratched" him. If this was an error, please say so.

    The warrior has:
    - Commanding shout: We have priest fortitude
    - Battle shout: Dk Horn

    However, I think we really missed some of the features woodyman mentioned, we will reevaluate them and see if others in our raid can bring those buffs/debuffs. Completely forgot that there are raidcomp tools for things like that *sigh noob*

    Oh, and we actually don't really know if we will have a holy paladin. Of couse we would not need 2 pallytanks for 2 auras than, but IF (and only if) our assumption was right that neither warriors nor dks would bring any buff/debuff or utility into our raid, it would seem to be still viable to have 3 paladins (LOTS of lay on hands *g*). Don't know why, paladin utility just seems overwhelming to me^^

    So, assuming there are no debuffs/buffs to make one tank comp more viable than the other, we would have to choose between pally utility and warrior mobility. Dk seems not to have any high value? I'll read the boss guides for the current raids as well to see if mobility really matters (it seems it does, I didn't know :-)) Thank you all!
    Last edited by JiaYow; 10-14-2011 at 08:09 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razsnagka View Post
    tanks: Dk and Paladin - paladin quite often on boss and dk on adds, or even going dps if it's a 1-tank fight.
    Strikes me pretty strange you put your block tank on the boss. Pallys and warriors are best fore multiple target tanking.

  11. #11
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    If neither of you wants to play a druid and you already covered all important (de)buffs i'd go double paladin. They offer the largest toolset combined with the best raidcooldown and reach unhittable rather easily. Altough the advantage of bubble/hand of protection has been greatly reduced during firelands compared to t11 content there are still some uses on bossfights, add Lay on Hands, two taunts on a short timer (equally good to a warriors vigilance) and sacrifice and you're set. And you can drop all healing/damaging druid/paladin and still offer kings/might, bring two auras for your raid (eg covering armor and resistance).

    Downsides:
    - no aoe thunderclap/demoshout a druid (limited), warrior or dk (both unlimited) could provide (interesting for multi adds fights)
    - two sword/shield wearer instead of one + twohander (dk/druid) = more competition for the same loot. Sadly we still only have one tankshield and one tanksword drop after 16 Ids of raiding firelands on our mains.
    - two more competitors for the conqueror token, depending on your raidcomp this is something you might want to consider
    - depending on drops you might have to wear a skirt for a little while

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JiaYow View Post
    What we figured was that the (tanking) death knight has no more buffs or debuffs than the dps dk, so we "scratched" him. If this was an error, please say so.
    all DKs brings +str&agi and melee dehaste
    Blood brings +10%AP, -10 physical damage taken and potentially some raid healing with Blood worms/GoRunetap
    Frost brings +4% physical damage done and +10% melee haste
    Unholy Brings +8% spell Damage

    All warriors bring +str&agility or +stam, melee dehaste, -10% physical damage, and rallying cry
    Arms Brings +4%physical damage, and +30%bleed damage, -10%healing taken
    Fury Brings +5 critical strike chance
    Prot brings er

    Neither Pallies nor warriors bring many extra buffs/debuffs for the raid in their tanking spec over there DPS specs, Pallie tanks bring Raid wall against the prot warriors Disarm/spell reflect/ease of getting the tanking debuffs up on multiple mobs at once.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by aresius View Post
    Strikes me pretty strange you put your block tank on the boss. Pallys and warriors are best fore multiple target tanking.
    Hmm true that, but in all fairness there aren't that many boss fights in FL that pose many adds.
    Shannox - pally On boss, dk On riplimb. Mainly historical reasons.
    Beth - dk On boss in P1, pally stays down.
    Rhyolith - both On adds. Yes, We're doing this with 2 tanks still.
    Alys - both On adds. Pally likes to tank in ground phase.
    Baleroc - dk takes decimation. Pally has smoother incoming damage easing our healing. Might change this to see What happens.
    Domo - pally tanks. Dk has dps offspec.
    Rag - 2 tanks. Pally starts.
    trash - tanks divide as they see fit. often cleared with only partly filled raid for rep on alts etc.

    /Prisnagka
    Last edited by Razsnagka; 10-18-2011 at 01:17 AM. Reason: Adjusted layout (posting via iphone made a mess of it)

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JiaYow View Post

    Regarding the buffs/debuffs and raid composition, we did try to figure out what we would gain and lose with every tank composition. We know we will have, among others, an enhancement shaman and a dps dk, and also warlock and a holy priest.

    What we figured was that the (tanking) death knight has no more buffs or debuffs than the dps dk, so we "scratched" him. If this was an error, please say so.

    The warrior has:
    - Commanding shout: We have priest fortitude
    - Battle shout: Dk Horn

    However, I think we really missed some of the features woodyman mentioned, we will reevaluate them and see if others in our raid can bring those buffs/debuffs. Completely forgot that there are raidcomp tools for things like that *sigh noob*

    Oh, and we actually don't really know if we will have a holy paladin. Of couse we would not need 2 pallytanks for 2 auras than, but IF (and only if) our assumption was right that neither warriors nor dks would bring any buff/debuff or utility into our raid, it would seem to be still viable to have 3 paladins (LOTS of lay on hands *g*). Don't know why, paladin utility just seems overwhelming to me^^

    So, assuming there are no debuffs/buffs to make one tank comp more viable than the other, we would have to choose between pally utility and warrior mobility. Dk seems not to have any high value? I'll read the boss guides for the current raids as well to see if mobility really matters (it seems it does, I didn't know :-)) Thank you all!
    The enhancer also brings +10% AP (Unleashed Rage), Strength of Earth (Str/Agi for 7 minutes instead of 3/4) or Stoneskin (To replace Devo aura), Healing Stream/Mana Stream totems (Whichever you need more), and of course Heroism/Bloodlust. I say use the Enhancer for it because our mana regen is built into our auto-attacks, which makes for one more monster Arcane Blast from a mage. Not the biggest help, but it's a benefit to the class.

    This can be counteracted by a MM Hunter (Trueshot Aura, 10% AP) or a BM Hunter (Which is surprisingly good and supplies 3% Damage buff) with a Corehound pet (Ancient Hysteria = Heroism).

    Gearing Issues:
    Obviously the enhancer and hunter would fight for gear as much as two plate tanks, with the DK possibly taking weapons your plate DPS would upgrade from.

    Suddenly I'm glad I'm not a RL in this xpac. LOL

  15. #15
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    We have been using a warrior and a paladin as tanks in ten mans since Naxxramas in Wrath (with brief forays into deathknight and druid tanking in ICC).

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