People will always take or use the easiest and most convenient ways to do things. Be it flying mounts or LFD. The only exception is if the reward greatly outweighs the convenience.
I find it ironic that the people who are complaining here are mostly the people with established guilds, who really have no need to use LFD. Of course it won't bother you if it disappears. The LFD feature wasn't put in there targeted at you. Doesn't mean that it's not good for a lot of people, and those people are paying customers, same as you.
this entire thread and the idea of the thread just make me lol..
who cares about the wow community... shouldn't you care more about your toon development and his friends? I do know there are a lot of loaners who play wow, so i could see them bitching. Myself i have been running with the same people since i started playing this game, some go but i have been in two guilds in 6 years... when the guild collapes or falls on hard times the core group developed the guild instead of jumping ship..
The wow community is what you make of it.. if your a loaner who guild jumps/server jumps.. never has friends then what the hell.. its your own fault... stop bitching.
I agree that this thread is pointless cause its not like Blizz will ever delete the LFD. Very good points have been made however.
I mean I learned a whole lot through running 5-mans the old school way from Vanilla to TBC. There were things that I wasn't aware of and the errors I made caused the rest of my group to help me improve myself. (example in BC I just started prot tanking and thought Devastate spam was the absolute since it was the final talent and barely hit Shield Slam, lol this is before I discovered Tankspot) There was that unity o trying to get through the run with same 4 people you entered with while trying not to smear your reputation by being a prick.
This is why Heroics had to become such a joke now, your tank sucked, kick him, get another one. Chea! Now that tank has no idea what he was doing wrong and why he got booted. A lot of players dont sit on Tankspot to learn the basics and up.
I'm pretty sure you can progress Ramkahen rep to friendly without a flying mount. After that point you get the tabbard and > to do dungeons. So doing the rest of the quests in Uldum is optional. As for the assumption that everyone wants Ramkahen rep, I wouldn't bet on that. Certainly not now and doubtful at launch as well.Originally Posted by Nifron
I don't doubt that flying mounts crippled world PvP, although I remain of the view that BGs delivered the deathblow back in 2005. Everything since then has just been deathspasms.
It also doesn't change the fact that a person is complaining about how they used like riding everywhere in WoW is making a nonsense argument. Flying mounts are a choice.
Escape and retributionThe first four steps of this chain unlock the rest of Uldum, and thus, are required for any other questing in the zone.
[83] Easy Money
3. Tag mobs , get athene to kill them for you
There is no kill-reputation for Ramkahen.
I think the only quest that would "require" a flight mount is the second re-origination device (Obelisk of the Sun), and I am unsure about that. As these quests do not grant Ramkahen reputation anyway, not a big deal. I do not think there is a quest early on enough to stop you getting friendly reputation (you can simply do the first couple of quests and then repeat the pigmy whacking daily (150 rep/day) a few times).
fetzie I love @ u lol
Yup, neither require a flying mount.Escape and retributionThe first four steps of this chain unlock the rest of Uldum, and thus, are required for any other questing in the zone.
*edit*
I'm wrong, Traitors requires the use of a flying mount, because its up the side of a building. Hardly an epic flying distance, but the fact is you've got to fly up there. I forgot about this, so yes, I'm wrong, Nifron is right.
However, none of the Cata zones require a flying mount to access them. If you want to complete all the quests in the zones a flying mount may be required, but as completing the zones is optional....
Also, a player could limit their flying to ONLY those places where it was required, which is basically a tiny fraction of the overall levelling gameplay.
Last edited by Libellus; 11-28-2011 at 06:04 AM.
I think you've missed the point of flying being a "bad" thing for the community, how many times have you mid-air met someone whose said, hey fancy trying to help me with this dungeon/elite/quest/whatever? Now everyone's flying the only time you bump into anyone in the outside world is if you meet at some sort of node, where you either kill them for mining your node, or grumble that their the same faction and can't kill them.
So while I could just never use a flying mount unless the rest of the server also never used a flying mount it wouldn't really help.
Being able to "opt out" of flying is a false option. It's like saying people who live in the suburbs can "opt out" of having a car because they can just quit their jobs and live on unemployment. Yes its an actual option, but not a practical one. The real issue with flying and teleporting and queuing isn't the act of flying vs riding, it's big world vs small world. It's location-based player interaction opportunity vs complete anonymity. It's creative use of terrain to facilitate a specific story/progression through a zone without giving away the "bad" at the end until you've made it there.
None of that is nearly as big an issue as the teleporting everywhere/never leaving the capital hub ... but it's still something of an issue and one that Blizzard agrees with me on. They have straight up admitted that they don't like the cataclysm zone/hub design and are removing flying from pandaland until max-level and are at least attempting to make meaningful places for players to be at max level besides a hub. Again I am hopeful that they are starting to address some of these things because honestly SWTOR is out the gate designing away many of the things I am bitching about here (cross realm LFD, mega hubs, etc) ... and if that gets any kind of traction it will put enormous pressure on blizzard to address these thing themselves. Of course that's no guarantee but I have my fingers crossed.
RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)
Um...BGs were far from the deathblow, it was even around during TBC. In WoTLK slowly but surely there became less and less reason for one to actually be in the 'World" to PvP in.
I think its fallacious to say that any one of these things killed world pvp, in fact I believe all of them did. BGs definitely made a huge impact but in BC they actually designed in PvP to many of the zones which at least gave us something to do but they then reverted away from those things in WoTLK. Flying has definitely done a number on questing/world pvp on pvp servers but has had little impact otherwise. Additionally now with servers becoming dramatically more polarized population-wise (half the servers are now have worse ratios than 1:.5) In the end it's several large cuts that have done in world pvp, not a single decapitation.
RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)
[QUOTE=feralminded;534097]Being able to "opt out" of flying is a false option. It's like saying people who live in the suburbs can "opt out" of having a car because they can just quit their jobs and live on unemployment. Yes its an actual option, but not a practical one. [/quotes]
That is a real bad analogy. Seriously, you're able to make perfectly reasoned arguments, so there is no need to resort to bad analogies. And this is seriously bad.
I see your point and that of Tengen in that flying has limited the amount of world interaction for quests, dungeons and what not. At the same time, I'd say that Blizz recognised at some point in Vanilla that with the majority of the playerbase being at max level (and would be true for the lifespan of most expansion), the opportunities for help and interaction were limited anyway so what was the harm in flying mounts? I admit the damage is there to world PvP, but I still see BGs as having done the most harm (they killed meaingingful world PvP overnight on the server I played on) and Blizz's ongoing failure to create meaningful world PvP objectives (because standing next to a flag while watching a bar move is not thrilling).
Plus, travel time = timesink. It is fun when you do it the first few times, but boy does it get old. I know not everyone agrees on this, but for me, as an adult who wants to maximise their playing time (and travelling is not playing the game to me), flying mounts were a godsend.
I also support this approach. Of the Cata zones, the one I liked best was Vashj'ir, because your travel was limited (to an extent) and you got to work through the zone and follow a very entertaining story. I also think, generally, the self contained approach of the zone/hub design for Cata was pretty good, but the fact that they didn't really link together strongly weakened the overall product.
I would like to make it clear I definitely have no issue with flying at max level ... but when first experiencing a zone I just feel it's important to "do it the hard way" at least once to really get the full experience. Finally I do apologize ... today is not a terribly literate day for me ... it was a very long weekend.
RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)
I pretty much agree with what people have to say here -- not to much that I consider out of the box but mostly logical. Don't get me wrong I didn't like spamming trade for groups but it was communication. But it allowed you to know people outside of your guild. It made the guild a group of people you leveled with, raided with, pvped with, but not the only people you interact with on a personal level, at all, within the game. I won't lie a lot of times if all those 'real' people in Org were just NPCs it wouldn't make much of a difference to my perspective anymore sadly. I won't ever know who they are or if they are any good simply because you don't have much of a reason to interact with them ever. It is pretty sad that those thousands of people are pretty much just put to waste in my game experience even though they are RIGHT THERE. It is a pretty vast untapped resource that hopefully will be taken advantage of in some way in the future. Hopefully.
Ygg
I use to pug a lot back in Wrath (who didn't?), which would group me up with quit a few of the same people from different servers in my battlegroup, to the point where we greeted each other, tried to remember which dungeon we were last in together, how things were going on their server, etc (pre-Real ID friends). This was more of a common thing when StarCraft II came out, as that summer most servers had turned into ghost towns. So even with the RDF, we still had community. Hell, when I finally server switched, there was already a group of friends on my new server I had known for years from pugging back in the day.
Cata changed that. The content is so punishing I really have no interest in building bridges beyond just getting through the instance so I can get my Valor Points and move on. Yeah, its cool when I'm randomly grouped with people know from different servers (one time bumped into a guy I knew from my old server while we both were ghosts outside ZG, yet in different instance groups), but for the most part, I have no real interest in forming new relationships with these random strangers that I just shared a beating with. Then there are all the jerks that intentionally mess up the run for no other reason than to grief everyone in the group with them that turns the experience sour for quite a few of us. I've gotten to the point where I'd rather sit in queue as dps than fast queue as a tank, simply because there is far less grief to be had as "just another dps". Cata's brutally to players openned a doorway for people to stopping viewing others as people.
Random Dungeon Finder is not the issue, nor is it the cause, nor is it the catalyst for the bad behavior we are currently faced with. The issue with the WoW community is the same issue with the Real World community: lost of socialization skills brought about by the technological filter we are putting between otherselves and the rest of the world. Humanity in general is going through a cultural shift away from small real life/in person communities to large virtual/anonymous communities where our individual actions lack consequences - no one can punish you for being an anti-social dick if they can't see your face or know where you live. I watch teens every day clumped in groups texting each other - Texting! Not talking! They are standing next to each other and typing with their thumbs rather than interacting with each other on a physical level. My boss prefers texting to phone calls, and I work security. It takes longer to explain an issue via text than it would a simple phone call (vent versus chat, duh!).
That is the sickness in our community, and it is not Random Dungeon/Raid Finder related (or really a Cata related problem, either). It will not get better. Far from it, this issue will continue to get worse. Blizzard is not to blame, nor are they responsible for fixing a worldwide disease of social retardation each new generation is currently going through. Next time you call someone a Noob or a bad or a fail, and dismiss them as a living being, you are removing one more brick from the bridge connecting humans to their humanity. Think about that.
I'm really looking forward to MoP. Hopefully the change in focus will help WoW players take a step back and think about their actions before they intentionally cause grief to others via the internet.
SJ
LFR is great for me because I have very limited time and can't dedicate to a set raid. Being able to just jump in a LFR raid when I have some free time is perfect.
I think the real acid test will be later today and over the next few weeks when we find out how long the queues will be, and how successful the groups generally are. If the queues are half an hour long, and the raid takes 2 hours, how many people will be bailing part way through because they "ran out of time" - this is, after all, the target audience for the LFR system from what I understand.
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