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Thread: Why I believe LFD/R has and is continuing to destroy the WoW community

  1. #101
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    I think the OP should start a blog.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  2. #102
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    I think the higher churn replacing players creates a different social aspect regardless of game features, but for this thread here's the real issue with 5 mans that's changed since vanilla/tbc and wotlk/cataclysm:

    The time requirement has dropped considerably because the instances are streamlined more. Less time = less social interaction.

    There is no real negative to dropping a group in the LFD system. In vanilla/tbc it could literally take hours to find a dungeon run. You would teach players how to play if needed because it was easier than trying to find replacements. In LFD the debuff isn't punitive enough to force interaction between players like before. It's currently quicker to drop than teach a new person how to play.

    Encounter design is overall easier. I know people will argue that cataclysm is hard, but compared to the original and tbc trash in the instances are easier overall. No huge amounts of CC requirements and class design makes trash easier every patch. Think back to how many times you used to see lucky charms on trash in vanilla/tbc compared to today's trash? Easier encounters = less social interaction.

    Finally, they are trying to match same servers first for 5 mans before going cross-server which is a good thing in all fairness and destroys this argument some.

    The more Blizzard streamlines the game the less social interactions you'll find. Requiring a player to actually form a group or interact with a player is against the streamlining process that Blizzard keeps working on. One example is the leveling process: with the increased experience gains, it's now easier to gain levels and come back to a harder quest than to actually group and do it at the right level/time.

    The community dictates the social aspects of the game too. On my server at least if you ask a question in trade chat/orgrimmar you get a response of "check wowhead." Before wowhead it was thottbot. The outside websites have also contributed to the decline of the social aspect since people don't have to talk about things, but instead just look them up.

    Facebook, Google+, Myspace, etc. I know people who had accounts and would log on just to check up on their friends back in vanilla/tbc. There's no need to do that anymore with the social networks being free and available to everyone.

    More complex or time consuming = More social interactions. Think about it.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defective View Post
    I think the higher churn replacing players creates a different social aspect regardless of game features, but for this thread here's the real issue with 5 mans that's changed since vanilla/tbc and wotlk/cataclysm:

    The time requirement has dropped considerably because the instances are streamlined more. Less time = less social interaction.

    There is no real negative to dropping a group in the LFD system. In vanilla/tbc it could literally take hours to find a dungeon run. You would teach players how to play if needed because it was easier than trying to find replacements. In LFD the debuff isn't punitive enough to force interaction between players like before. It's currently quicker to drop than teach a new person how to play.

    Encounter design is overall easier. I know people will argue that cataclysm is hard, but compared to the original and tbc trash in the instances are easier overall. No huge amounts of CC requirements and class design makes trash easier every patch. Think back to how many times you used to see lucky charms on trash in vanilla/tbc compared to today's trash? Easier encounters = less social interaction.

    Finally, they are trying to match same servers first for 5 mans before going cross-server which is a good thing in all fairness and destroys this argument some.

    The more Blizzard streamlines the game the less social interactions you'll find. Requiring a player to actually form a group or interact with a player is against the streamlining process that Blizzard keeps working on. One example is the leveling process: with the increased experience gains, it's now easier to gain levels and come back to a harder quest than to actually group and do it at the right level/time.

    The community dictates the social aspects of the game too. On my server at least if you ask a question in trade chat/orgrimmar you get a response of "check wowhead." Before wowhead it was thottbot. The outside websites have also contributed to the decline of the social aspect since people don't have to talk about things, but instead just look them up.

    Facebook, Google+, Myspace, etc. I know people who had accounts and would log on just to check up on their friends back in vanilla/tbc. There's no need to do that anymore with the social networks being free and available to everyone.

    More complex or time consuming = More social interactions. Think about it.
    Very great point. I remember sitting in places like Blackrock Depths or Dire Maul for hours not just because they were designed that way, but you had to have patience. If someone sucked you had to help him/her. Unless you had a warlock in your group going back to Org/SW to find a replacement wasn't an option. If someone dropped it was usually over unless you could find a friend/guildie to replace him.

    At the endo f the day though like I said, LFD isn't going to go away, if anything it will change every MMO forever most likely. Rift adopted the system and SWOTR/GW2 probably will also. Unfortunately.

  4. #104
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    I'm not sure I agree with the hypothesis that streamlined experiences necessarily mean less interaction. Blizz isn't responsible for creating interaction between players. When I think back to BC and the wrangling required to put together a suitable group for the heroic daily, it doesn't strike me as any more 'fun' than the LFD tool now. As for interaction, I think what you get out of an experience tends to be similar to what you invest in it. I run a lot of pugs and I've noticed that if you quietly go about your business, other people tend to do the same. On the other hand, if you interact with the folks in your group, they tend to do the same.

  5. #105
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    There is a very serious difference between polite conversation between strangers (about the best you can get out of LFG) and working towards building a lasting relationship (about the best you can get out of an in realm group). Indeed the worst you can get in LFG is getting kicked out whereas the worse you can get in a realm group is being blacklisted for the faction ... but it's irrefutable that the highs are higher even though the lows can indeed be lower. In the end I prefer any scenario where the consequences of failure or misbehavior are meaningful over one where anonymous, nameless (how many times have you heard "tank, do this" or "healer do that" as opposed to "<insert your name here> go over there".), and ultimately completely replaceable people are smashed together endlessly so they can pull their slot machine lever and have their magic points come out the bottom.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    . In the end I prefer any scenario where the consequences of failure or misbehavior are meaningful.
    So do I, however my experience of realm communities back in vanilla was one where the individuals with poor behaviour were invariably those in positions of influence in the community. You could be blacklisted or punished for simply speaking out against those people. That's not something Blizzard can police, but by introducing features like LFD, it broke the power and influence those individuals had. Which is definitely a win.

    The consequences of failure or misbehaviour have to be real for everyone and sadly, thats just not something that is effectively enforced by player led communities where everyone already operates behind a shroud. The good communities, where this kind of nonsense doesn't go on, tend to be few and far between. They're the model that everyone should follow, but most simply don't.

  7. #107
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    At the endo f the day though like I said, LFD isn't going to go away, if anything it will change every MMO forever most likely. Rift adopted the system and SWOTR/GW2 probably will also. Unfortunately.
    Bioware made a consciuos decision that their "LFG-Tool" in SWTOR will not automatically assemble and teleport groups, because they care about building server communities and social ties. It will work like the "original" LFG-LFR-tool in WoW: You can put your name on a list, so that people can see who is looking for a group or whether a group looking is for addintional players for certain instances. But you have to talk to the poeple and manually invite them. It is also only server-wide. It is basically the model I wished they would implement in WoW Or look at this awesome thing.

    So do I, however my experience of realm communities back in vanilla was one where the individuals with poor behaviour were invariably those in positions of influence in the community. You could be blacklisted or punished for simply speaking out against those people. That's not something Blizzard can police, but by introducing features like LFD, it broke the power and influence those individuals had. Which is definitely a win.

    The consequences of failure or misbehaviour have to be real for everyone and sadly, thats just not something that is effectively enforced by player led communities where everyone already operates behind a shroud. The good communities, where this kind of nonsense doesn't go on, tend to be few and far between. They're the model that everyone should follow, but most simply don't.
    I think you are making the exception into the rule. The idea that well-functioning, big guilds as a whole and especially their leaders were all morons, that conspired to tyrannize a whole server and players on it without a reason, seems extremely fabricated. I know its only anecdotal, but I donīt know a single person that had any issues with anything you are talking about. Which is, I think, mainly due to the fact that they all are nice, responsible players themselves.

    That doesnīt mean that people didnīt feel like this happened and that it wasnīt extremely rare. But in most cases that I experienced, it was things like someone getting rejected for a PUG because he/she obivously didnīt know anything about the class they were playing and they wouldnīt have helped anyone in a fight like Maulgar, for example. Or someone being excluded from rolling on loot in a PUG, because it became evident that they not only sucked, but that they didnīt care and lied to get into the PUG in the first place. These players then claimed to have been the victims of these "evil elitists" that lead the PUGs, when, in fact, the whole PUG didnīt want them (to roll on loot).

    And since a lot of people are envious of others and feel somehow inferior (though theyīd never admit it), these assessments never fell on deaf ears. And theres the stigma that you canīt be a great player in an awesome guild and still be a nice person - its totally exclusive, just ask anyone that isnīt a great player or in an awesome guild!

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griff View Post
    I'm not sure I agree with the hypothesis that streamlined experiences necessarily mean less interaction. Blizz isn't responsible for creating interaction between players.
    Blizzard is completely responsible for the total potential social interactions available. They could take away raids tomorrow and that would be one less way to socially interact. (They wouldn't, but it does show that Blizzard is responsible for creating potential social interactions between players.) Everything they put into or take out of the game is a potential social interaction.

    My argument is that Blizzard keeps removing opportunities for social interaction. People will always take the most convenient, easiest way always.

    One example: Blizzard makes it so you don't have to actually find enchanters anymore. You can scroll that stuff. It was a required social interaction before. Now it's a solo trip to the Auction House. This is what I mean by streamlining. You can find that enchant hopefully no matter what odd hours you play, but you don't have to interact anymore unless it's not available on the Auction House.

    Second example: Thinking of enchanting I had to take enchanters into Uldaman back in the day to train that up because they'd get lost. Now it's at the trainer and easier to get. I hope every enchanter remembers the fun Uldaman runs to train it up. This streamlines it for ease but removes one potential social interaction that existed in vanilla/tbc that doesn't anymore.
    Last edited by Defective; 11-24-2011 at 06:34 AM.

  9. #109
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    I definitely enjoyed the weird stuff like having to sneak into the backdoor of Uldaman to get your enchanting leveled or going to Tanaris for engineering or blacksmithing. It actually made the world feel like ... you know ... a world with actual destinations ... as opposed to this place where you sit in your town and click on various NPCs and interface icons to do absolutely everything you have to do. The immersion is completely gone ... I can't remember the last time I've taken my main to anywhere other than firelands or orgrimmar. Probably last tier when all I did was take my main to BoT/BWD/TotFW. lol.

    To be fair this is one problem they have recognized and are at least making a cursory attempt to fix ... but we'll see how effective their solution is.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libellus View Post
    So do I, however my experience of realm communities back in vanilla was one where the individuals with poor behaviour were invariably those in positions of influence in the community. You could be blacklisted or punished for simply speaking out against those people. That's not something Blizzard can police, but by introducing features like LFD, it broke the power and influence those individuals had. Which is definitely a win.
    On this we will have to agree to disagree.

    My anecdote is that while there were certainly issues with player run communities such as you described ... they were the exception not the rule. I personally spent much of my vanilla career aspiring to be one of those "good players who help others" because I had witnessed plenty of other pillars of my community doing the same and it served as a positive model of behavior. I wound up accomplishing that towards the end of vanilla when I had taken my little casual guild to a facton firsts raiding guild that had enough energy and influence to change the direction of the server for the better. We organized all kinds of things from public raids (which were very rare in vanilla) to training dungeon runs for other guild's GMs among other crazy ideas, using our strength and size to positively influence the server as a whole. That's simply not possible anymore since neither the players nor the guilds need each other any more in any capacity ... nor are they really rewarded to work together.

    Again I DO believe that blizzard understands this to some extent and I am hopeful they will seek a compromise. I've said throughout this thread I believe compromise IS possible and I think SWTOR is going to apply immense pressure on blizzard to seek it out.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    My anecdote is that while there were certainly issues with player run communities such as you described ... they were the exception not the rule.
    While I don't doubt the sincerity of what you are saying, I should also point out that in some of these "good" communities, plenty of bad stuff went out (both within the community itself and out into the server) that a lot of decent players turned a blind eye to or simply refused to acknowledge as being "bad" because it was simply not in their best interests to do so. I've seen large raid guilds and raid communities doing everything you describe in your post and alll of this was drawn attention to, while a lot of deplorable behaviour was ignored. I don't believe they were the exception.

    This is an aside though to the main issue on which, I think, we fundamentally agree and the final para of your last post summarises the position nicely.

    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    Again I DO believe that blizzard understands this to some extent and I am hopeful they will seek a compromise. I've said throughout this thread I believe compromise IS possible and I think SWTOR is going to apply immense pressure on blizzard to seek it out.

  12. #112
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    I totally agree with your thread. I personally feel that Flying Mounts ruined the game. I used to really enjoy the feeling of exploring at a slow pace the design put into the Zones of the game and how the environment changed as you entered new Zones. I found it fascinating. Also the feeling of hugging the road and the adventure of avoiding aggro on the roads was fun too. Now flying kills that thrill since you just fly miles up in the sky and you really can't appreciate the artwork put into the game.

  13. #113
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    Flying has definetly made the world feel smaller, and it certainly feels odd to be able to fly over an enemy outpost without reprisal, the capital cities should be perilous to fly over if your a hostile at least. Dwarf stongholds should use those giant artillery cannons, UC should be protected with flights of valkyries, etc. and in the world outside Flying mobs should fly, Harpies should be free to harrass flyers

  14. #114
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    Flying started the problem but TBC did more then enough to keep you immersed in the world. I mean in WoTLK and Cata you barely even have to fly, you just get ported everywhere.

  15. #115
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    Slightly off topic, but a way to salvage 5 mans and even possibly bring back some players is a dungeon creation tool. It would encourage same server groups and social interactions because of the complexity involved.

    This would require some work and investment, but imagine if Blizzard brought out a player-generated way to make content for 5 mans. Think of it like maps for the first person shooter games. Players could port into an alternate reality instance portal and experience new player-generated content. (Caverns of Time maybe? For the lore aspect one could say the instance is always in a time flux where all times/locations can come and go all the time to explain why it works how it does.) Loot drops could come from a standard loot pool. It could produce content faster than Blizzard ever could. The encounters would change constantly, so the social interaction would increase over the current LFD zombie method. Regardless of LFD or same-server the social interactions would increase as they do with new content.

    This would be big I would think seeing how custom maps are so popular in other games and player generated content extends a game life cycle.

    They've lost 1.7 million subscribers X 12 months X $15 = $306,000,000 (Even at half that price that's still $153 million.) Think how many players they possibly wouldn't have lost if they had this dungeon creation tool?

    Trion Worlds created a whole game from ground up called Rift for $50 million. I would think Blizzard having all the pieces in place: models, abilities, etc would make a player friendly dungeon creation tool for a fraction of what Trion Worlds spent on Rift so recovering the investment would be easy.

    You could even create raids with less than current gear drops in it. You could create new abilities and petition Blizzard to include them in the dungeon creation tool/game so Blizzard's creativity pool expanded far beyound what they currently have. Blizzard could even make it so after you create a dungeon you would submit it for approval (quality check) before being available on your server/other servers. At no point would it interfere with the current raiding system since the drops will never equal current content. Blizzard could even make a new player-generated random daily dungeon or a rotating few dungeons every so many days so players wouldn't get bored running them.
    Last edited by Defective; 11-24-2011 at 10:34 PM.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defective View Post
    Slightly off topic, but a way to salvage 5 mans and even possibly bring back some players is a dungeon creation tool. It would encourage same server groups and social interactions because of the complexity involved.

    This would require some work and investment, but imagine if Blizzard brought out a player-generated way to make content for 5 mans. [...]
    This would mean that BLizzard would need to release their zone creation tools, the programs that they wrote to set up NPC properties and provide detailed information as to how their game engine works to the general public. This would open the door up wide to people intent on changing the game's maps in order to move through walls etc. BLizzard would need to accept responsibility for fixing bugs that arise in the content if they incorporate it into the game, because what do you think would happen if the member of the public decided to quit the game? It would also open up a whole new can of worms with respect to copyright and intellectual property. How many people do you reckon would invest hundreds of hours of work in a project for no pay so that a company can make money off their creation? According to this website, a software developer with under 10 years of experience earns on average $62,567 p.a. or around 30 dollars per hour. An 8 week project for a single person at that pay-grade would cost around 10000 USD. That is 8 weeks of 9 hours per day, 5 days per week, and I am probably severely underestimating the amount of work required to build an entire instance from scratch (I think that you are too).

  17. #117
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    So make your own five man that has a ramp where you try to jump over a pit of spikes like tony hawk pro skater. And then you make friends in trade chat and get them to go to your own instance. Oh okay. LOL
    And then you go to an instance and ur like hey I made my own version of stormwind with a working auction house in it. and then blizzard owes you money. LOL

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by YounqMoney View Post
    I used to really enjoy the feeling of exploring at a slow pace the design put into the Zones of the game and how the environment changed as you entered new Zones. I found it fascinating. Also the feeling of hugging the road and the adventure of avoiding aggro on the roads was fun too. Now flying kills that thrill since you just fly miles up in the sky.
    Lets be clear on this.

    Flying mounts are an optional feature. You don't have to use them.

    One of the things you loved about the game was the travel at ground level. Yes, its a timesink, but I guess some players prefer to spend their time doing nothing other than travelling, which to me isn't really "Playing" the game. Regardless, you liked doing that.

    Tell me, at what point did WoW change in such a way to stop you doing that? Or, more importantly, why did you take the decision to use an optional feature that seemingly impacts on your enjoyment of the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by YounqMoney View Post
    and you really can't appreciate the artwork put into the game.
    Azeroth and Outland look glorious from the air on my computer.

  19. #119
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    actually you have to fly to progress through Uldum if you want Ramkahen rep, and you do want that rep, every one does.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libellus View Post
    Lets be clear on this.

    Flying mounts are an optional feature. You don't have to use them.

    One of the things you loved about the game was the travel at ground level. Yes, its a timesink, but I guess some players prefer to spend their time doing nothing other than travelling, which to me isn't really "Playing" the game. Regardless, you liked doing that.

    Tell me, at what point did WoW change in such a way to stop you doing that? Or, more importantly, why did you take the decision to use an optional feature that seemingly impacts on your enjoyment of the game?



    Azeroth and Outland look glorious from the air on my computer.
    Even if some people would rather throw away the convience of flying mounts most people wont. It gave World PvP a serious blow.

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