Why I believe LFD/R has and is continuing to destroy the WoW community

[feralminded]

This started as a response to a different thread, but I decided to expand upon it and support my argument a bit better. Regardless this is more rhetoric than anything else so feel free to disregard it ... though I do believe my points are fairly valid.

The issue is simple and obvious to anyone who played in Vanilla or BC or even played older MMOs. Once upon a time when dirt was young each server had a VERY strong and unique community. Players had to interact with each other and progress together forming what amounted to a collective dialogue that was unique to each server. Individuals who were good players or just fun/good/interesting people (the most famous people on my server were definitely the most interesting) got reputations as such and became friends with each other while others who were ninja's or just really bad/cruel got similarly bad reputations. This was both good (in that you actually got to know people you played with, regardless of guild) and bad (in that if you wanted to be a jackass or drew the ire of a powerful person in the community you had to live with your reputation). That said in either case it was ultimately a very human experience typical to any human community.

Your friends list became a powerful tool that you would use to keep in touch with people you enjoyed playing with, again regardless of your guild ... the two groups would often intersect but they were not completely inclusive. Each server had it's own dialogue and often times you would talk to other players or even guilds about "remember that time in LBRS where so and so did such and such" or even you would sometimes hear "hey you hear about such and such doing so and so in this dungeon run a couple nights ago ... man that was crazy!". Other pieces of news like who was currently making the run at high warlord or which guild got which drop spread very quickly because the community structures that support information transfer were alive and well. Yes ... there was hearsay, gossip, rumors, etc ... and all of this was facilitated by the fact that 100% of the time you were playing this game, sharing this experience, with this small(ish) subset of the same people. All of this helped to build what ultimately amounted to a very real and very organic human community.

Then came LFD ... of noble design and purpose ... and in very short order all of that dispersed. Suddenly the only other humans that mattered to anyone were the ones in your guild and even then only really the ones in your raid. You simply had little to no use for anyone else and thus the communities that had all prospered for years across each server slowly started to wither and fade away. Indeed towards the end of WoTLK or early Cataclysm some managed to keep community-building activities like GDKP runs going but even these last vestiges of a server-community are now going to go away with LFR. Ultimately what was once a very human experience with a very real and sprawling and interesting community with it's own story and history has been turned into a something similar to what exists in FPS or RTS games ... a totally anonymous/antiseptic and very inhuman mockery of what once was.

The promise of the MMO over other genres like FPS or RTS is in fact the community that Blizzard has been so ardently destroying. I don't think they are intentionally doing it ... but they are still most certainly doing it as they remove each and every part of the experience that humanized it and replace it with a slot-machine-esque "pull this wheel enough times and win ... oh and yeah some other people will be near you doing the same thing ... try not to pay them much attention though" design. That's all LFD and LFR amounts to, a human sitting at a keyboard pressing the "spin" button and eventually getting a purple out of it. Everything else that once made this game a fun and dynamic experience to share with other people has been effectively washed away.

My only question is, why Blizzard? Or rather ... was it really worth it?

[Theotherone]

I agree and disagree, I responded to you in the other thread, that, in essence, LFG destroyed the dungeon community, it had no effect on raid pugs which my server had a lot of; that was more of the community then the short dungeon runs. What destroyed that pug raid community was Cata's raid difficulty; BoT, BWD, To4W and FL were just too damn hard for the average pug on my server, shared 10/25 lock out, gearscore and an unhealthy reliance on achievements.

The nerfs have started to bring back the pug community on my server. If LFR is used as a slot filler for premade pugs, than that should be healthy, but if it's just for solo's that's an issue.

[Bovinity]

What destroyed that pug raid community was Cata's raid difficulty; BoT, BWD, To4W and FL were just too damn hard for the average pug on my server,

If your "pug community" relied on the ability to just faceroll ICC-10 normal mode lower spire with 30% buff up, then you really didn't have a healthy pug community to begin with.

[Theotherone]

If your "pug community" relied on the ability to just faceroll ICC-10 normal mode lower spire with 30% buff up, then you really didn't have a healthy pug community to begin with.

Why? Because not everyone was killing H LK with 0 buff? When people can get together, down bosses and have fun that's a healthy community; people were happy going 6 or 7/10 in a weekend night in a pug run. I fail to see what's wrong with that.

[Reev]

I said it in the other thread:

While I agree that LFD (and cross realm anything, really) has destroyed a lot of the things I love about this game, I would argue that it's not really our game anymore (the people who enjoyed the social aspect of it). The game has moved on from that to be about quick, easy dungeon / raid runs instead of actually interacting with people. I don't think you can take a game that has shifted polarity so much and just shift it back. If we want a more social game again, where there's a real community, I think it'll have to be a completely new game. You can't put the explosion back into the firecracker once it's blown. You just have to get yourself a new firecracker.

I experienced Vanilla WoW, where people knew the other players outside their guild on their server by reputation. You knew that Cydel was the rogue at the head of the greatest guild on the server, and what weapons she used to destroy you in world PvP. You knew that Swifty was that guy in Infamous who was Fury when no one else was Fury, and actually managed to be effective. You knew Ff was the premier feral druid. The first blow to that was cross realm PvP. The second was flying mounts. 3rd was LFD, and I think LFR will be the final nail in the coffin.

[Bovinity]

Because if your "pug community" is really just a bunch of vultures that descend on free purples but scatter the moment a wipe is a possibility, then it's hardly a community, it's just people looking to scrape up some free loot. They don't really want to raid and it's hardly a community.

It's kinda related to the idea that if you nerf everything into oblivion, you make more raiders and that's good. But are you really making more raiders, or are you just pandering to vultures that descend on faceroll content when there's free loot to be had, only to flee at the first sign of actual life from a boss?

[fengosa]

The more successful and pleasant LFR runs are going to be those where you recruit the majority of your group from your own guild/server. LFR is a tool to round out any gaps missing so you don't have to stand in trade for 30 minutes looking for your last 2 healers.

I actually view this as a huge opportunity to improve my server community because pugs in cata have been more hit than miss and I haven't pug near as much as i did in wrath. Lowered difficulty and increased chance of success are going to make the community a lot more pleasant imo.

TLDR - You're going to get as much out of the game as you put in. If you set up groups ahead of time you have greater control over your group and it's success. If you q up for LFR solo...good luck.

[fengosa]

The nerfs have started to bring back the pug community on my server. If LFR is used as a slot filler for premade pugs, than that should be healthy, but if it's just for solo's that's an issue.

^ someone agrees with me

[Azarïelle]

Hi,

I would like to add some comments on the LFR tool. I think that its impact will be detrimental but its effect will be on the long run. My concern is for new players. Real new player (if they exist), they do not need a guild for leveling, nor PVP, dungeons and Raids. These new players will experience all the game has to offer without the hassle of a guild.

The main aspect of a MMO is the players you play with, in a guild or on the same server. If new players are not required to group or find a guild to see content. This fresh blood will not look for a guild in the first place. They will ''beat'' the game on easy mode and leave after. Not all player like to redo the game on normal mode and the on hard mode.

I already saw the impact on guild relations with the LFD, guildies don't always wait for their guildies for dungeons. I think that the LFR will impact new guilds and guilds that are losing key members/rolls. Without a fresh blood those wither and die.

Top guilds won't ever see this and on short therm the LFR will be a success.

AZ

[Jericho]

Once upon a time when dirt was young each server had a VERY strong and unique community. Players had to interact with each other and progress together forming what amounted to a collective dialogue that was unique to each server. This was both good (in that you actually got to know people you played with, regardless of guild) and bad (in that if you wanted to be a jackass or drew the ire of a powerful person in the community you had to live with your reputation).

These are the things that first brought me to the genre in the first place. I started my decent into the MMO world with FFXI where this was (and still is) the norm. When I came to WoW around the time original Naxx60 was introduced, this was the case with WoW as well. You knew the good and the bad on your server. During TBC our server began a secondary raiding community where the top end guilds teamed up for weekend and alt runs. That lasted in full force throughout Wrath, but has since died off since. To me playing an MMO is not about the gear grind, it is about community.

The old LFG system where you had to put forth a small semblance of effort and communicate with people was as important to the old game as anything. Doing away with it allowed Blizzard to move the game in a new direction.

The promise of the MMO over other genres like FPS or RTS is in fact the community that Blizzard has been so ardently destroying. I don't think they are intentionally doing it ...

This is the one major statement in your original post I would disagree with. I believe that Blizzard has systematically put forth effort to destroy and recreate a different type of community. They want your MMO community to no longer be server based, but based on your guildmates and real life friends who play the game. They have step by step pushed us all into knowing very few people on our servers. Made it so once you are in a guild that you are incentivized to stay regardless of what level of "community" that guild provides you. Blizzard no longer values the server community in anyway, because it hampered the "ease of access" of the more casual players in it. People want immediate gratification, and were not about to stay in an increasing old game.

They have tried to compensate with RealID cross realm LFG (and eventually BG, RBG and LFR). However, they refuse to allow RealID to become what it could be with adequate services such as nicknames, invisible online status, and most importantly, offline messaging. In Cataclysm they even went so far as to attempt to make guild's more engaging with guild xp/levels and achievements. Both of these "compensation" efforts have failed ridiculously in a lot of people's minds.

I said it in the other thread:

While I agree that LFD (and cross realm anything, really) has destroyed a lot of the things I love about this game, I would argue that it's not really our game anymore (the people who enjoyed the social aspect of it). The game has moved on from that to be about quick, easy dungeon / raid runs instead of actually interacting with people. I don't think you can take a game that has shifted polarity so much and just shift it back. If we want a more social game again, where there's a real community, I think it'll have to be a completely new game. You can't put the explosion back into the firecracker once it's blown. You just have to get yourself a new firecracker.

I completely agree. WoW is not the game we all started to play back in Vanilla. It requires less work, it is less interesting and there is less human interaction involved in the day in and day out game. You are right, once the goose is cooked you can not magically make it walk, fly and honk again. People like to say WoW in unkillable. I say WoW is dead, long live WoW. The WoW we all fell in love with died somewhere between Sunwell and ICC. The WoW we play now is only a shell of its former glory. While still fun, its changed enough that the fun is fleeting.

[Mustache]

Let me see if I can even try to convey my thoughts on this. Of all the MMO's I have played thru the years some games have had a strong sense of community within a pretty lousy game system (Asheron's Call, The Realm, etc) and then other games where the reverse was true. (Everquest, Starwars Galaxies, etc) WoW was the first game to have an actual decent fusion of the two, and over the years, as any good game will - it has evolved. I really have mixed feelings on the various cross server functions. The cross realm battlegrounds basically took the focus off having a tight knit pvp group. (And they tried to put back in via rated BG's)

I only recently came back and leveled thru the LFD system but I can honestly count on one hand the number of people I have even SEEN from my server, let alone spoken too. It reminds me of vanilla raiding, where you were grouped up with a bunch of random jerk-offs simply to collect your prize and move on, but even in that its not the same 39 jerkoffs every week. I still have been finding alot of random trade pugs, and as I do more and more runs I am eventually finding people on my server that are worth playing with.

I guess its both good and bad, since it opens you up to run 5 man's on odd play times, but also makes each group a gamble. I have no idea what impact the LFR is going to have, but I enjoy the thought of having a non-lockout raid where I can practice each fight to get a better understanding - on my own time. Perhaps the LFR will have a positive impact, since you could potentially be spending a longer time frame with someone on another server, and maybe just maybe thats someone you ACTUALLY would want to play with.

[Libellus]

I've played across a number of servers since WoW launch and I've mostly done (and continue to do) dungeons with guildmates and friends. This is for the simple reason that the dungeon pugging community, on any server, has always sucked. In Vanilla and TBC, pugs were full of elitist asshats and the only productive way to get anything done was to do it with friends and or current or former guildmates. Occasionally you'd meet someone through pugging who you'd friend up and strengthen your list of 5man contacts, but really all you were ever doing was moving yourself further and further away from having to pug.

Pugging sucks. Has always sucked and will always suck, because the WoW community has and always will suck. And for the record, it sucked most in Vanilla. The WoW community has never been more egotistical and self centred than it was in those days. Especially compared to other MMOs.

The LFD system has simply removed the painful pre-amble to joining a dungeon group. No more hanging around in capital cities waiting for friends to log in or trying to establish a group of non-asshats from the veritable sea of non-asshats on any given server. LFD makes the game more enjoyable, because you can still play the game while waiting to do a dungeon. The old system was just waiting with shiny graphics.

The LFD hasn't stopped me from running dungeons with guildmates or friends. It hasn't stopped me from meeting people on my server and making new friends. All the LFD has done is stop a lengthy delay in waiting to form a pug dungeon group. This is a big plus.

As for pug raids. Well, they seem very healthy on my server. Cata raid difficulty doesn't seem to have had a significant impact on pug raiding, if anything it appears healthier. More raids, doing more content, more of the time. It will be interesting to see how LFR competes with that vibrant community and I expect that it will work for some players i.e. those not already pugging raids and not work for others i.e. those already pugging raids or doing raids as part of a guild or other community.

I'm not convinced LFD has killed anything and if it has, it wasn't worth a damn in the first place.

[feralminded]

When I wrote this I feared this thread would quickly devolve into a petty argument over "I'm a super casual and you're a super hardcore so you're obviously wrong." I'm delighted to see some reasonable feedback and opinions ... both consenting and dissenting.

What I will not agree with though is the notion that the situation is unrecoverable or that Blizzard doesn't want to. Perhaps their strategic direction IS to intentionally destroy server communities and in fact push everyone to an insular and faceless guild that holds no meaning to anyone else on the server ... but I for one doubt that's their explicit goal (it may in fact be something they see as a compromise but I believe if they CAN salvage the server communities they will).

I also don't think the LFD/R systems are bad things, I think they were just implemented with too little constraint. Look at what LFD has done for the levelling dungeons that were all but impossible to run, even in vanilla. LFR is also a solid answer for players who don't have a fixed schedule or who don't want to be bothered with the stiffer challenges of normal/heroic raiding. That said a solution does exist somewhere in between that can definitely help to bridge the gap.

Here's what I believe can seriously help make a healthy compromise.
#1. De-emphasize the Valor/Justice point system for current content. These systems should exist purely to provide "catch up" gear for players. The great failing of BC was the fact that it was impossible to "catch up" without walking through the tiers (I know some people considered this a good thing and while I do share in some of that nostalgia, overall it was a fail design for both the casual and the hardcore for many reasons Lore has outlined better than I care to).

#2. Disable LFD for current tier dungeons. Since the valor tokens are not important for current tier gear this can happen now.

#3. Make the LFR and current tier dungeons drop equivalent iLvL gear (the raid will probably still have better stuff like set pieces, but the iLvL should be the same). This will give players two paths to gear up if they're looking to do current tier normal/heroics. The dungeons are a good way to get into a short-duration but fun and social environment while the raid gives you the lol-rofl-stomp event.

Net Effect: The de-emphasis of the token systems is key here. Getting people out of the tread-mill mindset and instead getting them back to hunting for drops will be a net-positive on the game as a whole. It also enables you to remove the LFD tool for the current tier since current tier raiders/players have no need for the tread-mill of the current LFD system. It will also again encourage the pursuit of dungeons with either guildies or server-friends. Finally making the current tier dungeons and LFR the same iLvL will give two viable options to people with the same "reward". Allowing people the choice of the maybe harder to organize but more social dungeon run OR the easier to organize but less social LFR but yielding mostly the same reward satisfies both parties.

It is a compromise, and certainly not a perfect one, but I believe it can help to start to move us back towards a more community based game.

[Rowdy]

The main aspect of a MMO is the players you play with, in a guild or on the same server. If new players are not required to group or find a guild to see content. This fresh blood will not look for a guild in the first place. They will ''beat'' the game on easy mode and leave after. Not all player like to redo the game on normal mode and the on hard mode.

This is such a vital point. From Vanilla up to now, the point where the game design "made" you communicate and collaborate with others has been pushed further and further away - from leveling to 5-mans to raids. The LFR will now capture the the current endgame content for solo-play.

Everyone, including Blizzard, acknowledges the fact that the main reason people keep playing the game are their contacts within it. Yet, most of the game design choices of the last three years made making contact with other players more and more obsolete. Players that started playing with WotLK or Cataclysm (or after 4.3) will never have had the opportunity to experience what the social aspect of an MMORPG really can mean to enhance ones personal playing experience.

My guild and raid(s) have been experiencing that for quite some time. It was no problem for us to recruite players at the end of TBC and the very start of WotLK. But since then, its becoming harder and harder to recruit players although we offer everything most people could ask for: (very) reasonable schedule, great success, absolutely sympathetic, personal and familial atmosphere, no drama. We have been looking for players all the time since Cataclysm release and people just aren´t interested anymore.

Also, the players Blizzard alienates the most - since it propably isn´t meant to be "our game" anymore - are the ones that do make playing it more fun for a lot of other people. A lot of people always claim that the "top 10%" of the players are less important than the (supposed) legions of more casual players. And while that makes sense from a standpoint that focuses on the pure numbers, a closer look is neccessary to understand, why these fewer, more invested players are much more important for a game community than their numbers suggest.

These are the players that make videos and guides, that create art and stories, that orgaize raids, guilds and events, that form communities like tankspot.com and others. I am 100% certain, that quite a lot of people wouldn´t have played this game for as long as they did because of the work that I and some other players put in - maybe 5, maybe 15, maybe 50 or more. If these 10% wouldn´t exist, a lot of the ther 90% wouldn´t play the game, either.

The players that Vanilla and TBC created/educated/raised/whatever where players that would play the game for years, because they connected to the game and other players. The players the current system creates, don´t have any lasting connection to anything anymore. I doubt that all this makes sense even from a purely profit-oriented point of view.


@ Libellus

The LFD system has simply removed the painful pre-amble to joining a dungeon group. No more hanging around in capital cities waiting for friends to log in or trying to establish a group of non-asshats from the veritable sea of non-asshats on any given server. LFD makes the game more enjoyable, because you can still play the game while waiting to do a dungeon. The old system was just waiting with shiny graphics.

There once was a LFG-channel, that was accessible wherever you were. So playing the game while you were looking for a group was possible and the waiting time for a damage dealer wasn´t more than the 20-45 minutes on average it is now, either. But, for some reason, Blizzard had to get rid of that channel (well it was only accessible while standing in a major city).

As for the "asshats": First of all, I am always amazed by the amount of hatred some people have for other players. But more importantly, how are the current systems (LFD and soon LFR), that randomly put asshats in your group without you having any influence, better than before, where you could actually choose the people you wanted to play together with?

The LFD hasn't stopped me from running dungeons with guildmates or friends. It hasn't stopped me from meeting people on my server and making new friends. All the LFD has done is stop a lengthy delay in waiting to form a pug dungeon group. This is a big plus.

Thats big question: has it really? Over all players, including players in guilds and with rather big friends-lists, is the average waiting time really significantly lower than it was before on a decently populated server? I don´t know. The only thing we know is that every tank/healer/damage dealer just waits as long as everyone else. And this is a very common attitude nowadays: its not that important that something gets better. It is more important that it is the same for everyone - even if it means the same level of (long) waiting times for all the players all the time.

And it hasn´t had a big direct effect on you and your guildmates and friends, true. But it has if newer players are less likely to join and contribute to well working guilds.

[Libellus]

There once was a LFG-channel, that was accessible wherever you were. So playing the game while you were looking for a group was possible and the waiting time for a damage dealer wasn´t more than the 20-45 minutes on average it is now, either. But, for some reason, Blizzard had to get rid of that channel (well it was only accessible while standing in a major city).

Yes, that change was always something of a mystery and I never understood the logic of removing it. Although, for the duration of that channel's existence, on the server I played on it was mostly full of spam and abuse so some of the value it added was lost.

As for the "asshats": First of all, I am always amazed by the amount of hatred some people have for other players. But more importantly, how are the current systems (LFD and soon LFR), that randomly put asshats in your group without you having any influence, better than before, where you could actually choose the people you wanted to play together with?

Its better because it is quicker and because when it is over I never have to see those people again if they prove to be awful (which is not nearly as commonplace as the whines of the community make it out to be). LFD does not stop me from choosing the people I want to play with, never has, never will. LFD is an addition to this, it doesn't replace it and yet so many of the arguments against LFD are based on this premise.

Although I refer to "asshats" I've had many fine groups through the LFD. On average I've had more pleasure than pain from it, so I don't buy into the big community delusion that LFD is contributing to lower player skill or worse player behaviour. I don't see behaviour as being any worse than back in Vanilla.

Thats big question: has it really?

The big answer - yes it has. When things are quiet, the LFD tool saves a huge amount of time in getting people together to run groups. When things are not quiet, the guild can invariably pull groups together as quick (if not quicker) than the LFD. The quiet times outnumber the busy times because the guild works steadily and quickly through the content and VPs needed, so eventually the runnings of heroic dungeons tails off.

And it hasn´t had a big direct effect on you and your guildmates and friends, true. But it has if newer players are less likely to join and contribute to well working guilds.

I've not seen any evidence to suggest that it has.

Ultimately the need for socialisation back in Vanilla was part bad game design, and part lack of content (which also accounted for all the travelling timesinks and what not). I'm not against socialisation, it is the main reason I play WoW after all, but it should be socialising through choice rather than being compelled to through game mechanisms (or lack thereof was was the case in Vanilla). For me, the attitude of many "known" players in the first year of Vanilla was one of big egos and willy waving, of naming and shaming players who they didn't like (often because they'd called the "big names" on bad behaviour). Through all this, the friendlier raiding guilds would boldly plod on, invariably suffering attempts from the bigger ego raiding guilds to poach their players (the top guild on the first server I played on was pretty much addicted to this) and the smaller guilds wouldn't raid much at all outside of LBRS and UBRS because they a) couldn't and b) if one of the larger guilds had a vacant slot for x class, they'd invariably try to poach a player from a smaller guild.

The changes in TBC broke raid guilds down a bit and reduced a lot of the bitchy behaviour, but it really took LFD and widening the community's access to 5 man content to really shift the power to the people, so to speak.

[Mustache]

In some aspects I agree with parts of what you said Libellus, but coming from the other side of the raiding fence during vanilla, so we had a far different perspective. During vanilla and a lesser extent TBC, most dungeon runs were pretty exclusive, so I am sure pugging was miserable for someone without either a large guild, or large group of contacts to put stuff together with. Even back then, at least for our dungeons it was less about being elitist and more about taking the people you were comfortable with, there were plenty of terrible players in my guild, or my roomates even that I took to dungeons all the time. On the flip side, it was RARE for me to ever ask for a pug, if at all - we simply wouldn't bother with a random. (Unless it was an app or something, to get a feel for them)

In the system now, its basically flung the doors wide open, perhaps I could still be picky and only run when I have a full group, but its just a monumental waste of time. Waiting to get the right group, I could probably finish at least two full runs with randoms, including on average 1 in 3 that has a pvp geared tank, or sub-10k dps players that I will probably end up leaving. I suppose its not that LFD has eliminated the ability to form your own groups, it just made the notion rather outdated and ineffective, compared to slogging thru just hoping for a passable party.

I guess in some aspects I miss being forced to play with people I actually liked, but it sure is nice to be able to get something done on a whim, regardless of the potential headache of wild cards. I'm still not entirely sure where I sit on this whole debacle, because I don't think its entirely bad, but not entirely good either. Like I said earlier in the thread, it gives me a practice arena to get a basic idea of the fights - for when it actually matters.

I'm not sure if I should even bother getting into the discussion about big names and big guilds being elitist during vanilla, since I was always in the parties/raids with the loud guys from trade. But I think the whole ego thing goes both ways, alot of people assumed you were automatically a giant douchebag because you were raiding top end content, but in reality if our guild was any indication, we had TONS of crappy people as well, if you wanted a seat at the table, all you had to do was try. It wasn't really some insurmountable obstacle, people just didn't know where to start mostly.

Edit: Reworded some stuff that didn't read right

[feralminded]

That's kind of the point of my suggestion to de-emphasize the treadmill of dungeons. If dungeons again become something that's important to do for specific drops, but not important in the sense of "do them 7 times a week or suck" ... then you can again get back to something of the situation that was enjoyed in vanilla and BC. Ultimately if not for the treadmill that Wrath turned dungeons into we might not have had all of the backlash against the initial dungeons in cataclysm ... but since they were STILL a treadmill blizzard had to nerf them back to oblivion or exclude everyone who couldn't/refused to get a strong group together. I think it's a matter of setting up a system that subtly encourages social play but doesn't force it ... because indeed the genie is out of the bottle. I believe he can be put back but it's going to take time and patience and a slow approach.

[Ion]

That's kind of the point of my suggestion to de-emphasize the treadmill of dungeons. If dungeons again become something that's important to do for specific drops, but not important in the sense of "do them 7 times a week or suck" ... then you can again get back to something of the situation that was enjoyed in vanilla and BC. Ultimately if not for the treadmill that Wrath turned dungeons into we might not have had all of the backlash against the initial dungeons in cataclysm ... but since they were STILL a treadmill blizzard had to nerf them back to oblivion or exclude everyone who couldn't/refused to get a strong group together. I think it's a matter of setting up a system that subtly encourages social play but doesn't force it ... because indeed the genie is out of the bottle. I believe he can be put back but it's going to take time and patience and a slow approach.

The problem is there's nothing ELSE to do EXCEPT run dungeons now.

PvP is a catastrophe, dailies take half an hour, alts level up in hours instead of days...everything is so streamlined that it's made it so that there's really nothing to do after the first day or so of the reset.

[Charon]

Hi,

I would like to add some comments on the LFR tool. I think that its impact will be detrimental but its effect will be on the long run. My concern is for new players. Real new player (if they exist), they do not need a guild for leveling, nor PVP, dungeons and Raids. These new players will experience all the game has to offer without the hassle of a guild.

In response to the above quote, If new players are staying guildless, they're missing out on a LOT of the game's current "community" and sometimes, even being in a guild it's more a commune than a community.

When I started playing WoW with any degree of seriousness (Early WotLK), my guild was mostly relatives (Ex-Wife, in-laws, a few friends) but our friends lists were far and away the pinnacle of what community represented to us. It quickly became a server-wide joke not to duel Tipzy outside LBRS at my expense because Mind Control = Lava Bath. In fact, it was to the point that unless our "core group" was on, Tipzy and Alfie weren't likely to get a group for Blackrock ANYTHING lol! Bloody hell, I miss the old days on Shattered Halls. I miss WoW having a sense of community. To be sure, I definitely miss the days before LFD! Those were some epic adventures, running to the doors! Speeding off across the zone from the FP to the door, dodging random packs of mobs only to turn around and crush them because the priest was paying more attention to her snack than her path. The conversations that took place. Truly beautiful!

[Libellus]

I suppose its not that LFD has eliminated the ability to form your own groups, it just made the notion rather outdated and ineffective, compared to slogging thru just hoping for a passable party.

As I said, it depends how active the guild (or wider friends network) is at any given time. When its busy, pulling a group together is a quick process and the group will clear dungeons much more effectively than most pugs will. If the group stays together for multiple dungeon runs (they usually do), then more dungeons will be done faster. The group is an effective mechanism............when its busy. When things are quieter, LFD wins out by a coutry mile.

I guess in some aspects I miss being forced to play with people I actually liked,

That sounds a bit weird, but I understand your point. Personally I prefer the option of having the choice to play with friends (and all the advantages that infers) to achieve a certain goal or having the option to wing it with a pack of unknowns. I never really liked being in the position of thinking "well no one I know is around, so I guess I'm pretty stuffed content wise."

As you say, there are trade offs. Overall I think the benefits of LFD outweigh the bad and the "damage" it has done to the WoW community I think is extrapolated by individuals, who feel worse off than they did before LFD, to assume everyone is having the same experience and feels the same way about it.

Certainly my impressions from the cesspit that is the official forums, is that individuals from raiding guilds (although not exclusively the case) feel LFD has made things worse. My guess is this is because players no longer feel beholden to raiding guilds the way they did pre-LFD. They can do their own thing, gear up in their own way, without having seek the patronage of a raiding guild to progress beyond the bare minimum. Certainly for raiding guilds with that elitist/holier than thou, attidue, LFR is going to make things A LOT worse. Whereas most raiding guilds won't notice negative effects of LFR and instead will probably experience a net benefit, as their members (who choose to use LFR) will still be gearing up when not rostered for raids. Thats a win/win scenario for a lot of raid groups, except those that try to control their players.

I also agree with what you say about assumptions regarding raiders in Vanilla. I knew a lot of lovely raiders/raid guilds in vanilla and TBC, but as the saying goes "the empty vessels make the most noise" and it was always the asshat raidguilds kicking off in trade, on the forums and elsewhere. Invariably you'd have one or two raid guilds on a server vying for the server firsts who would try, by hook or by crook, to keep others from competing with them. They'd be the minority, for sure, but they could make the atmosphere very poisonous.

*edit*

On the issue of dungeons being something you do for specific drops - they still are. One of the points of VP was to give the players some reward when the item they were seeking didn't drop. Running a dungeon repeatedly for any given drop is just another form of treadmill and to get nothing out of a dungeon run after the umpteenth attempt, is demotivating and depressing.