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Thread: Revenge Viable Yet Again

  1. #1
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    Revenge Viable Yet Again

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3229376031

    "Warrior

    Protection, 2P -- Your Revenge ability now also grants a physical absorption shield equal to 20% of the damage done by Revenge.Protection, 4P -- Your Shield Wall ability now grants 50% of its effect to all party and raid members."



    Looks like they're 'fixing' revenge and simultaneously implementing a bit of active mitigation via tier set bonuses.

  2. #2
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    a 2.5k shield every 5 seconds on a single target. Nice but nothing to get excited over. especially if it can't stack with itself. I mean we're talking about dropping the incoming DPS on us by 500. Yes, its only a 2pc bonus and they shouldn't be very powerful but this is pathetic as far as carrots go.

    Revenge needs moar love plox.

  3. #3
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    the fact that all tank cooldowns are going to partially raid wide scares me slightly... How much burst AoE damage are we gonna have...
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  4. #4
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    that's a very small absorbsion shield, isn't it?
    Regardless though, I like the idea that we can now actually choose between maxing dmg/threat (not using revenge) or minimizing dmg income (using revenge).
    But it might very well be a moot point if the shield is too small. Gief revenge buff for 4.3!

  5. #5
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    So as prot warrior i don't have personal cooldowns anymore? Saving last stand for rallying cry saving shieldwall for when the raids needs it. Love the raidutility but makes me feel kinda selfish at times.

    500 Hps from the 2piece is kinda a joke but guess we have to see it as a minor bonus instead of something significant. Its not bad but not great either.

  6. #6
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    How does this make revenge useful? Seems like Bloodcraze all over again. Pathetically small compared to what is needed/useful.

    4pc - wtf? Oh, well, my raid had better not count on me popping SW when they set up a coolddown rotation - Last Stand takes priority over Rallying cry and Shield Wall for me takes priority over raid wall.

    This has to be the most uninspiring bonus set...

    It is a bonus, but I'm not hungering for it.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    4pc - wtf? Oh, well, my raid had better not count on me popping SW when they set up a coolddown rotation - Last Stand takes priority over Rallying cry and Shield Wall for me takes priority over raid wall.
    The number of times I've needed Rallying Cry or Last Stand, and not had them due to cooldown sharing, has passed a number I can reliably count. It's also horrible to be in a situation when you're hesitating because you're thinking of something else coming down the road... Something I'm also ashamed to admit to.

    Sure, I like the idea of a raidwall. But if I take the 4-piece, I worry that my personal cooldowns are going to be my raid leaders cooldowns and that's not what they were intended for. Oh, and needless to say - the paladin version (though still weak) is better.
    Last edited by Zellviren; 09-25-2011 at 02:52 AM. Reason: Addition.
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  8. #8
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    Teng, you are judging from Revenge's current AP scaling. Which is 99% likely to change in the next patch anyway. I think its gonna be awesome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    Teng, you are judging from Revenge's current AP scaling. Which is 30% likely to change in the next patch anyway. I think its gonna be totally lackluster.
    Fixt


    Personally I'm hoping that the set bonuses will be more optional, but with all tanks having extra raid CD, it seems they just wonna give you something to do besides to crappy DPS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  10. #10
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    Ah well changing the current 2piece about 600 dps for T13 500 hps its not going to make or break anything.

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    Revenge's AP scaling is fine, it's its base damage that's shite and craptacular crit rate that's shite.

  12. #12
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    Simple put we just can hope those set boni never go live, roughly 50% of them are not well thought by any means.

    DK 2 piece - there's already a talent covering exactly that: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=81164 you already pool death runes and keep blade barrier rolling this shouldn't help by any means
    DK 4 piece - either 7.5% hitpoints and 12.5% more healing received for 5s or +20% healing received for 5s every minute

    Druid 2 piece - only berserk ability or berserk procc as well? Only ability is a 3 minutes cooldown, well..
    Druid 4 piece - so that's +30% healing received and +15% hitpoints every 3 minutes for 20s that cats can bring as well

    Paladin 2 piece - less then 5k absorb shield every 8 seconds
    Paladin 4 piece - more range and less cooldown (180 -> 120s) on your raidwall, that's mediocre at best

    Warrior 2 piece - less then 3k absorb shield every 5 seconds (while tanking!)
    Warrior 4 piece - shieldwall goes raidwall, -20% damage every 120s for 6s (-30% every 240s if glyphed)

    That's only the numbers, now let's go to a real critic:
    - A set bonus should enhance your play, if Blizzard feels the need of more raid cooldowns they should have started giving holy priests one as well to make healers even. Both tanking druids* and Dks lack a raidcooldown, so if Blizzard decides they need one they should get one baseline.
    - You can't design encounter around having 4 piece setboni, can you??? Tanks would need to get their tokens first and offpieces would get sharded. What happens if Paragon brings 11 druids again for the heroic boss like they did on heroic Nefarian? All cats can swap to bear form and pop frenzied regeneration. You only need 9 druids to cover the entire fight's timeline, netting you +30% healing received and +15% hitpoints permanent, crazy isn't it? You could even give fury warrior 4 def tokens to have another raid wall if personal damage isn't an issue.
    - Why can dk's use their cooldown twice as much as eg a paladin and druids can only use it every third minute? I really don't want that FOTM shit all over again, if Blizzard feels the need for a raidcooldown on every tank make them do the same, eg have every shieldwall getting reduced to 2 minutes and absorb 40% (warrior like), half of that for raid for half the duration.
    - Warrior specific, we now have two raidcooldowns that limit our own survivial cooldowns? That's bullshit, period. We already complained a lot about having shield block being a tri-force (physical offensive, physical defensive and magical defensive) and we can often only utilise 2/3 of it, that's bad design. We already complained about not being able to hit last stand without losing a raidcooldown, they could have last stand's talent enhance rallying cry on ourself so we need one button less hotkeyed but even that's to much to ask for.
    - What fights can we expect, lots of tankdamage coupled with lots of raiddamage like Nefarians Electrocute or Sinestras third breath, coupled with 8 ticking wrecks? Thus we can still not getting rid of Mirror of broken images? *sigh*

    Ending: Coupling raidcooldowns on our own survival cooldowns is a bad idea, we feel punished for trying to save our asses when the raid dies seconds afterwards (eg: paladin's raidwall exclude them, they still have to hit a selfcooldown). Just give us something funny/nifty that's not gamebreaking and enhance the healer's raidcooldowns instead (don't forget about those poor holy ones!) while granting DK's and druid's something baseline to feel on par with raidwall/raidshout. Don't have us to rely on four piece to survive anything again (18s shield wall vs chimeraon heroic anyone? Soaking two additional attacks during feud was superb and we couldn't bring a replacement for a while because healers simply put couldn't handle it).

  13. #13
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    More I think about it more it feels like wrapping passive mitigation into a new foil. In order for it to feel more active, and make us want to think about when we want to use it, it would have to be a fair bit more significant without feeling OP. Which is a damn hard balance to strike without increasing its CD by a fair bit.

  14. #14
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    It's a reason to press revenge instead of devastate, so in that respect I think it's fine. I suspect that Blizzard are testing the waters a bit, to see how warriors react to this kind of 'active survival' (which could be used rotationally, or possibly with a bit more finesse to time revenge to land just prior to predictable spikes)

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    It's a reason to press revenge instead of devastate, so in that respect I think it's fine. I suspect that Blizzard are testing the waters a bit, to see how warriors react to this kind of 'active survival' (which could be used rotationally, or possibly with a bit more finesse to time revenge to land just prior to predictable spikes)
    Hm it's kind of a binary thing. The question is if the dps as a tank matters or not. If it does matter then I wouldn't gimp my optimal dps *rotation* (press devastate instead of revenge) for a less then 3k heal every 5s. If dps does not matter at all you could as well contribute that little tiny bit to your survival. But in the end it will probably not matter if you live or die.

    I like the idea an the mechanic behind it though

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    It's a reason to press revenge instead of devastate, so in that respect I think it's fine. I suspect that Blizzard are testing the waters a bit, to see how warriors react to this kind of 'active survival' (which could be used rotationally, or possibly with a bit more finesse to time revenge to land just prior to predictable spikes)
    Not a very good one. If they want us to use it, make it something worth using. 2/3 bloodcraze may just beat this out in terms of value. I picked 2/3 bloodcraze because to maximize it's effectivness you're putting 2/2 in Imp Revenge, which I've currently dropped because I've dropped revenge.

    Using Airowird's spreadsheet, my average revenge (assuming 2/2 back in Imp Revenge) is going to hit for ~9500 (full vengence). 20% of that is ~1,900 absorb.

    I don't see anything stating revenge can't miss, so given 5.89 hit+expertise, still leaving me a ~23% chance to miss (feel free to correct me if revenge can't miss), it's not even going to be every 6 seconds.

    I don't see why this is attractive. Saying it's a reason to hit Revenge is like saying Blood Craze's 10% chance to proc a 1.2k/s heal for 5 seconds is worth 3 talent points.... It's not. And it's not.

    I like the idea they're playing with it like this, making it more than just a damage dealer. But this is so utterly lackluster... Best case scenario, 8 minute fight. Perfect usage every 6 seconds, you're looking at 80 revenges for 1900*80 = 152,000 total absorb. Or ~317/second if you want to look at it that way.

    Now granted, revenge will get bigger in 4.3 as gear increases, but it's just pathetically small.

    It would have been much better if it had been something like "Revenge will create an bubble that will absorb damage equal to 20% of your life. Bubble cannot occur more than once every 30 seconds".

    So you'd save revenge an unreliable cooldown or something like that.

    A couple other 'active' tanking ideas that would make revenge valuable:

    2pc: Revenge will slow target's attack speed by 5% (stacks with other effects) for 10 seconds. Or 3 seconds. Or something.Or a 10% chance for 15 seconds...
    or
    2pc: Revenge will reduce target's attack power by 5% (stacks with other effects) for 10 seconds. Or 3 seconds. Or something. Or a 10% chance for 15 seconds...

    Or something like that. But a bubble that might not beat 2/3 bloodcraze for total damage mitigated.... o_O
    Last edited by Loganisis; 09-25-2011 at 01:39 PM.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  17. #17
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    My logs show that Revenge does not have any passive expertise/hit so is entirely able to fail to connect up to 21% of the time. I want a reason to press revenge, I really do, and that reason should be "Revenge is Pro", this 2 pc isn't pro, a Shannox Block is what 18k? he's gonna get maybe 2-3 of them off over my Revenge CD so we're talking 45K granted ill avoid a third of those so 30K and my Rev Bubble is gonna stop maybe 2.5k minus 20% for the failures to connect. A 2k bubble against 30k doesn't sound too bad. But the fact I have to spec Revenge for it is totally meh.

    Idea's Great. Implementation ruins it.

  18. #18
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    I don't see how comparing an ability to a talent choice makes any sense. You don't need to spec into revenge, you would just choose to press it if you want a bit more survival and choose not to press it if you don't care.

    I trust when you are mathing this, you are remembering that you will (by definition) be in T13 gear with T13 strength and stamina pools...

  19. #19
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    Okay, so the ONLY reason you're going to hit Revenge is a 1,900 HP shield? That's complete BS.

    IF Revenge was in the neighborhood of Devastate then it might be a reason to hit it. But the only time Rev is in the realm of Dev is if you're Imp Revenge.

    But whatever, if a worthless absorb is enough to give you a reason to hit it...

    2pc isn't useful. 4pc isn't useful. Blah. Not exactly a high-note for the end of the expansion, but all it means is we have 2 pieces of gear in every tier slot to compare, not trying to figure out which one will be the set breaker.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    I don't see how comparing an ability to a talent choice makes any sense. You don't need to spec into revenge, you would just choose to press it if you want a bit more survival and choose not to press it if you don't care.
    True. However without the points in Imp.Rev Rev and its bubble will only be 62.5% of the size they would be with it, so a ~1.3k absorb every 5 seconds, as a panic button are a strategic CD, its not really setting my world alight

    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    I trust when you are mathing this, you are remembering that you will (by definition) be in T13 gear with T13 strength and stamina pools...
    No. I'm assuming a t13boss will hit a tank in t13 gear about as hard as a t12 boss hits a tank in t12 gear, and that we're not going to end up with with an increase of 150% of the AP values we have now. For all I know T13 bosses may hit like kittens and we're gonna end up with 40K AP.


    finger's crossed Kopcap's right and they be buffing Revenges base damage.

    Anyone worked out what the HPS absorb size of the palley version is to comapre?

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