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Thread: Ramblings on tanking history and present itemization (DANGER: 10 page long post ).

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    @ klausi
    Again: what are your other stats?
    Warrior for sure, but i change gear for every boss so there are no such thing as general stats. I'm getting up to 67% block and 37% avoidance at 192k hitpoints, regulary running with a 4-piece-mirror-flask combo 1-3% short of ctc and ~ 204k hitpoints.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    tl;dr: I donīt say its wrong to go for more stamina. I just donīt see the benefits and it is a non-issue for Warriors anyway (probably until 4.3). No one tells their DPS to get more stamina in order to survive some scenarios neither.
    You shouldn't just have a 10m PoV, 25m offers some serious differences. And of course you can change your gear/gems in BiS gear, sacrificing some ctc for additional stamina. Eg using scales of life trinket offers the option to heal back up after bursts, paladin esque.

    Benefits of stamina on a warrior on heroic: Sinestra (breath + double melee hits), Nefarian (electrocute + shadowflame + melee hit), Halfus pre nerf/change on 10m (stunned + tripple melee hits for 60k each during that period), Shannox 25m (double melee hit + dot + slash).

    And the crux: even with all our ctc caps we still get beaten to death from Baleroc because he has more expertise, yay.. Looking forward to the -20% dodge aura we had in TBC and WOTLK for the last tier as well.

    tl;dr: You overvalue full ctc. Being ctc capped during shield block and regulary during 4 piece as well is enough.
    Last edited by klausi; 10-02-2011 at 10:54 AM.

  2. #22
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    We won't be getting a Sunwell Radiance/Chill of the Throne/Twilight Precision buff/debuff. Back in Wrath, gear was so inflated that tanks had 75% avoidance with full stamina gems and trinkets. Right now, a BiS equipped tank in 391 gear has got about 35-40% avoidance (bears have a bit more). We MIGHT get to see a warrior or paladin with 50% avoidance, but it definitely won't get much higher, and there will therefore be little need for a minus-avoidance debuff or a boss expertise buff.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airowird View Post
    I'm going to touch mainly on this part.
    First of all, you assume healers can keep you up without any issues. This means that your assumption also includes that either a) Healers can always do more healing than the boss can do in DPS
    I was assuming healers can keep me topped off in non worse-case scenarios, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airowird View Post
    Secondly, and this is the part I've spent dozens if not hundreds of hours thinking and modelling about, there is a balancing point between avoidance and stamina at a certain point. ...
    So far, the best model that takes all of this into account is still the Burst Time model which is especially true once you hit Unhittable (or you don't tank with a shield).
    I agree there should be a balance, i posted under the impression common sense was leaning too far over to the avoidance side once ctc was hit. I had not read the burst time model and am gratefull for the link.


    Quote Originally Posted by Airowird View Post
    And finally (and this is my biggest issue) :
    Your post seems to dictate a simplistic model of "stack Mastery untill Unhittable, then stack Stamina". This is relatively short-sighted, as you do not even make a difference between gemming and reforging (can't reforge to Stamina) and the value of Armour (which usually makes a higher ilvl Dodge/Parry item atleast as good as a lower Dodge/Mastery one)
    I didint take armor into account because i considered upgrading it as "unavailable". There are few armor enchantments or trinkets, no gems, and the ammounts given from these trinkets, enchants and variations from piece to piece are far less significant now then in Wotlk, for example.
    Admitedly my model is simplistic and, now you pointed out the burst model i have changed the original post to include a note that stacking stamina mindlessly after ctc may indeed not be optimal (ill keep all the original post so anyone reading the thread will be able to understand it).
    Though i still am not fully convinced on the effectiveness of increasing avoidance on cata content after CTC. This because, although the burst model has given some light on the effectiveness of incresing avoidance for added survivability, we cant assume the cost per point of itemization in avoidance and in stamina is equal. Any tank with CTC is well over the diminishing returns on his dodge and parry, so id ask if the item resources you add to dodge or parry wouldent be sufficiently higher invested on health (which has no DR) to score higher burst time survivability on a chart? This in part because the burst model you have showed, although very interesting, is somewhat outdated. Since then the ammounts of parry you can have before diminishing returns kicks in is far smaller, and is not taken in consideration for plotting the charts relating increase in burst time and increase in stamina/avoidance.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Blocks a strange creature, just give it it's own box.
    Conceded. Point taken. Added a edit in the original post informing the mistake (im not editing the post and removing it so anyone reading the thread will be able to tell what was going on).

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by aresius View Post
    ... This in part because the burst model you have showed, although very interesting, is somewhat outdated. Since then the ammounts of parry you can have before diminishing returns kicks in is far smaller, and is not taken in consideration for plotting the charts relating increase in burst time and increase in stamina/avoidance.
    Technicly, DR kicks in from the first Parry rating you get and while the charts aren't correct when it comes to rating, they are correct when it comes to exact avoidance chances. The exact gain in Burst Time would also be very dependant on the amount of damage incoming. Remember that back then, we had some bosses doing 60% or more of a tanks total HP in a single hit, which in todays numbers would be >100k melee swings (which were even faster back then).
    The model is specificly meant for those bursts your healers can't heal up in time, which means that as long as healers can heal the average BDPS, these are the best stats to go for. It is true that for a majority of the gear setups I borrowed from the internet, Stamina comes ahead of Dodge/Parry, but usually not to the point where dropping out a socket bonus or reforging 200 parry over 100 expertise are worth the extra HP. This is particularly what I found missing from your initial post.
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  6. #26
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    @ klausi

    I was just curious because you said, youīd reach the 240k HP and wondered if that was with or without CTC. Its impossible (at the moment) for a Warrior to be CTC-capped and have significantly more than 200k health. And thats all that I was ever trying to say and I think we agree on that, donīt we?

    The starting point for me in this dicussion was the "Ragnaros-scenario" (even if it is a poor one). I wanted to point out, that, at the moment, it is not possible for a any Warrior to stack so much stamina that he could survive a "worst case scenario" as described by the aresius. If you stack enough HP (like your 240k health) to survive that scenario of two blocked hits + two Debuff-ticks + a trap without cooldowns, you wonīt have CTC anymore, making the worst case worse - and in that case (~40k additional damage of two unblocked hits), your HP wonīt be enough anymore. And I completely agree with you: its a bad example. I take 45k damage on average from the traps, for example.

    Thats why I said, that changing your gear to more stamina as a Warrior, right now, isnīt a huge difference compared to going for more avoidance. Its like 10-12k health if you want to stay CTC-capped. How important the latter is, is another question, but I fail to see how youīd not in a discussion about removing RNG burst damage on tanks.


    @ aresius

    I do agree with you, but everything you say in this thread is (and will be for some time) only true for Paladins. And while you mention that your PoV is mainly a Paladin-perspective, to me it sounds like the same was equally true for Warriors (thats how it seemed to me after reading your post(s)).

    A Warrior is barely able to reach CTC and might be 4-5% over the cap tops in BiS-gear and being a Night-Elf. That means you can maybe add like 700 stamina which is something in the area of 12.000 health - and that wonīt change a lot. Also, the ability to critical block changes everything and makes more avoidance (including more mastery) a lot more compelling. For example, because of critical blocking hits, I take about 20% less damage per hit than our Prot-Paladin. In the scenario mentioned, that would mean about 14k additional damage for the Paladin and I doubt that even Paladins can be CTC-capped and have more than 240k health, but I am not sure on that.


    tl;dr: I think this discussion can be about Prot-Paladins only. Its not a real choice or issue for Warrios unless the want to drop CTC, which would be diametrically opposed to what the OP wants to emphasize: removing RNG burst damage on your tank.


    Edit: Airowird makes an excellent point. The encounters, especially considering tank-damage, have changed dramatically from WotLK. And even then you could run with full avoidance gems/enchants/trinkets and be finde. Now, bosses do less burst and healer mana matters.
    Last edited by Rowdy; 10-03-2011 at 03:12 AM.

  7. #27
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    Good discussion, and fairly timely. I am already able to achieve full CTC on my warrior and choose to do so on many (but not all) T12 fights. Looking ahead to T13, I expect to have more flexibility in how I reach that cap, and be faced with more decisions about what to do with the spare stat budget.

    To give a simple example: I can already choose to stay capped and use a stamina flask. That's a direct shift from mitigation (elixir combo) to stamina. On Beth'tilac and Shannox, I choose not to cap but instead to go for trinkets with stamina and on-use avoidance, because I think that suits the fight mechanics more. On Ragnaros/Baleroc, I use the Mirror trinket (which until very recently left me with a fraction of a percentage chance for normal hit), because the extra on-use will have a much more significant impact on my ability to survive than any other choice (coming back to the Flame Trap example in the OP, using cooldowns like the mirror/shield block or even last stand/shield wall are just as viable as using raw stamina).

    But that's now, what's interesting is where we go next. I won't talk about the datamined gear from the PTR (because it's against tankspot policy and because it's probably quite misleading this early). I think it's reasonable to expect however that warriors will be able to get full CTC without needing 2 mastery trinkets, and that trinket choice (as well as consumable choice) is probably going to be the most direct way that tanks need to adapt. Am I still going to be whipping out the mirror for certain fights? Seems entirely plausible, unless there is a direct upgrade. Am I going to be looking for a nice fat stamina trinket or two with a nice on-use or proc? Certainly.

    Slightly offtopic but relevant: Visual Combat Table addon got a nice set of updates. http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-a...bat-table.aspx - makes it a lot easier to understand all these things when you can *see* them.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airowird View Post
    It is true that for a majority of the gear setups I borrowed from the internet, Stamina comes ahead of Dodge/Parry, but usually not to the point where dropping out a socket bonus or reforging 200 parry over 100 expertise are worth the extra HP. This is particularly what I found missing from your initial post.
    Ah. It was not my intention to lead to the beleif that gemming "straight stam" was the way to go. Actualy, atm im running with the traditional mastery oriented getting socket bonuses set (40 mastery, 20mast/20parry, 20mastery/30stam gems), as i just hit ctc. I intend to, with some upgrades, use a few more pure stam gems, or dodge/stam gems in the future (or maybe put in a entire stam trinket). Basicly switching from a purely mastery oriented gemming to a mixed stamina gemming, while still keeping socket bonuses and makins sure im at full CTC. This is what i was trying to defend on this post (giving basic mechanic explanations).
    @rowdy
    Well, the discussion regarding getting stamina after ctc might be pally only (my warrior isint 85/raiding - i dont have firsthand experience) so if warriors are still struggling to get full CTC of course they dont have margin for looking for stam upgrades. (my raid co-tank warrior told me hes with cull CTC, wearing reg mode gear like myself, ill have to see if hes adding it up right).Additionaly, if you go look up paladin BIS gear in some lame site like MR robot, they already tell you its 215K hp unbuffed. with a flask, fortitude and kings i can see that easly reaching 240K. With full CTC and mostly mastery oriented gems; So yes, well over 200K hp is quite a reality for paladins.
    Last edited by aresius; 10-03-2011 at 03:05 PM.

  9. #29
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    Heroic geared Warriors hit >90% without buffs or any raid gear. Let's say you hit 92.4% with the pre-raid gear.
    Roughly taking, you get ~0.75% Parry from Strength through buffs.
    Elixir & Food buff is worth 315 Mastery = ~2.63% Block.

    That's 6.62% away from Unhittable in just VP/MF gear.
    That's ~4.41 Mastery short, roughly 800 Mastery Rating.
    I am probably undershooting the heroic gear by a couple hundred Mastery Rating, so I'ld guess it'll be closer to 400-500 rating needed past heroic gear. Not that hard to get upgrading into FL gear.
    With Rag gear you could probably get a stamina trinket over a Mastery one (or Flask rather than use expensive elixirs), which means you'll be looking at about 175k HP raid buffed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  10. #30
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    @Airowird

    Even Paragon and Ensidia Warriors still have full avoidance gems in iLevel 388 gear. So no, its not that easy to cap. Why does nobody believe me? :>

    And as I said: in BiS gear you might get about 4-5% over the cap, at most. Thats the equivalent of 10-12k HP. The margin for Warriors is so much smaller than for Paladins, that it is a non-issue.

  11. #31
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    Both the armories you link have warriors sporting a stamina trinket. Leaving aside the traditional response to linking armories (you don't know the reason they logged out in a particular set, you can't assume 'in best guild' means 'makes best decisions', etc) that's exactly what we are saying isn't it? To reach the cap as a warrior, you start off needing 2xMastery trinkets + mastery food/elixir. Once you reach the cap, you can switch to different consumables (cauldrons and feasts make life easy). Once you get into BIS T12 and probably in T13+ then you have even more flexibility.

    Don't forget, Nelfs are 2% better than Gnomes.

  12. #32
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    Have you even read one of my posts? Man, this is tiring.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    Have you even read one of my posts? Man, this is tiring.
    Have you even read the other posts. You don't seem to be arguing against each other and you don't make much sense.

  14. #34
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    Yes, I read your post. I don't agree with you. You are saying this is just about paladins. I'm saying that as we get into T13 gear, warriors will be faced much more regularly with the same choices that paladins are faced with now: how to gear above full CTC. You link paragon and ensidia armories to show how hard it is to cap, but to me all that does is illustrate what it's already like on the cusp.

  15. #35
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    It just is annoying. I make the point "Warriors, at the moment, canīt trade avoidance over the CTC-cap for a meaningful amount of stamina anyway. Even if you have BiS gear or you are a NE, you will only gain about 12k additional health which is nothing compared to what Paladins can get with full CTC."

    - klausi comes in and says "I get to 240k health!", I ask him how and he replies "Well, I donīt have CTC then, but I can get that much health!"
    - swelt, aresius and airowird speculate on how it could be when I already showed them whats possible at most.
    - swelt tells me not to forget about Night-Elfs. Oh, really? I forgot them? My bad!
    - swelt is talking about T13. Obviously I hadnīt mentioned that my assessment regarded the situation right now. Oh, I did? Wooohooo!

    You didnīt even care to look at the profiles I posted. Including the 5% base miss-chance of bosses, Ekyz is at 95,99% avoidance with his current gear, including the stamina trinket. He wonīt even reach CTC with mastery elixier+food and raidbuffs (which is ~3,6% overall). Tarilya is at 99,63% which, including all additional raidbuffs and mastery elixier+food, gets him just over full CTC. Keep in mind that Tarilya uses the amazing Alchemy-trinket that actually has both, stamina and mastery. With any other HP trinket, he wouldnīt have full CTC either.

    You canīt have better gear than those two. You can squeeze out a little bit more mastery here and there and this will allow you one stamina trinket + a couple of stamina gems. But does it really matter in BiS gear and with (raidbuffed) 200k health anyway? Would you really take an additional 10-12k health over 3-5% more avoidance and think it makes a difference?

    For Paladins, its a completely different deal. They can actually get 40.000 and more additional health while having full CTC. Thats something you could think and argue about.

  16. #36
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    - If you think 12k hp isn't significant I'm not sure what you think is. Its even larger, 18k hp if you consider the choice between 96,6% CTC with 4p and 102,4% CTC.
    - Klausi made a joke about reaching 240k hp
    - If you think some of their numbers are off just say so
    - With the firelands nerf all current content isn't as interesting as it was anymore, speculation on T13 might well be more interesting although we need to see the content on the PTR imo.
    -Not that impressed by the ensidia armory he's taking some odd choices but it might work for him, the one from For the Horde looks good. And you can reach 102,4% CTC with full 391 gear, 1 stamina trinket & elixers just needs other professions.
    -Pretty sure 10k hp might be the difference between life & death in some cases.
    Last edited by Bigbad; 10-04-2011 at 07:06 AM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    klausi comes in and says "I get to 240k health!", I ask him how and he replies "Well, I donīt have CTC then, but I can get that much health!"
    Reread it, i said i'd be at 240k hitpoints with stamina gems and two stamina trinkets. Of course i'd trade ~ 12-13% block/critblock for it like everybody (warrior brethren) else.

    And there are some tanks around - especially 25m tanks - favoring a large health pool over more avoidance/mitigation with all the hots and raidcooldowns flying around. Take http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/characte...offel/advanced from Affenjungs, rocking on stamina for years. His tanking brother Skaris favors stamina as well http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/characte...karis/advanced and if you start browsing through wowprogress you'll find a LOT. And don't forget progress is over, bosses have been nerfed by another 15%. There's no gear gap and no worries about THAT huge spike that did kill you in 378 gear with 185k hitpoints, on top of that 20% more leeway for you healers can be pretty nice.

    But my point as stated before: you just overvalue full ctc, sporting for full ctc during shieldblock is rather easy in 346/353 gear. And regulary melee hits won't kill you any day, it's a melee hit + something special. You can just pop shield block 5 seconds before, blocking at least two incoming melee hits before the large hit and it's -20% magic damage as well. Unless the boss tends to use his special attack way more often i can't see how this is going to make or break your day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    Would you really take an additional 10-12k health over 3-5% more avoidance and think it makes a difference?
    Actually, i tend to do. You already listed a rather unrealistic scenario of Ragnaros hitting for x+y+z=a damage. I made my own calculations based on several indicators and i feel very comfortable around 200k hitpoints. Of course that's just imagination to a certain degree but i can live with 1-3 out of 100 melee attacks being a full hit, assuming that neither shieldblock nor 4 piece is avaible anytime soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad View Post
    Klausi made a joke about reaching 240k hp
    Actually i didn't. I ran with a stamina setup for a little while but we tend to bring more dps to shorten the fights over more healers for stabilisation and as such i try to reduce my incoming damage over having more leeway for my healers. And after the recent nerfs i just use strength flask/food/landslide weapon for the WoL-ranking fun.. But that's generally a decision you should make depending on your raid(-setup & -size) and not because anybody here on tankspot/tankadin/ej came around with some maths or A looks just better on paper than B.
    Last edited by klausi; 10-04-2011 at 07:13 AM.

  18. #38
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    Warriors, at the moment, canīt trade avoidance over the CTC-cap for a meaningful amount of stamina anyway.
    They can and they do.

    3% of spilled over block is over 500 stam, more for pure avoidance. This is a very tangible amount of health that provides guaranteed cushion against any type of dmg under any scenario, where as avoidance and crit block are rng based and only apply to melee. When shit hits the fan I prefer something that minimizes my rng, ideally something that I can rely on. That's why I liked mastery before CTC, that's why I like stamina now.
    Last edited by kopcap; 10-04-2011 at 07:34 AM.

  19. #39
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    Ramblings on tanking history and present itemization (DANGER: 10 page long post ).

    Disreagard- iPhone / tapatalk "mis-click".
    "he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng

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