+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 39

Thread: Ramblings on tanking history and present itemization (DANGER: 10 page long post ).

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    144

    Ramblings on tanking history and present itemization (DANGER: 10 page long post ).

    I wrote a post on tanking in my guilds forums, having in mind some freinds with tanking alts and offspecs, in which tried to cover basic tanking mechanics. I figured that, having written it all, i might post it here case it could help anyone.
    Id like to clarify that i am not trying to be original, and most (if not all) of the ideas in my text i read here in tankspot forums. Additionaly, i am not trying to be a theorycrafter. Being just a "rambling", i do not intend to propose game mechanics that are not already widely accepted. Hence, I am not giving proof for conclusions i make or the assumptions on how game mechanics work, and only attempt to follow a logical stream of thought. Ill be abstaining from any possible following discussion in the replies, though will naturally be thankfull if someone points out something that is conclusively incorrect.
    At last I apologize for my poor writing skill. The last time i started a post in the forum, i felt it was very badly received by the comunity and i beleive the blame is in bad text formating and poorly constructed sentances and misspelled english. Im trying to improve this by doing exactly what i am, practicing.
    Following is the post as in my guild forum.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Now that i finnaly got full combat table coverage i began to wonder how i would itemize my gear with further upgrades, and felt like "speaking aloud" so to speak, and posting my conclusions here in the forums.

    Disclaimers: this was written with mostly paladin tanks in mind. Many concepts apply to all tanks, specially warriors, but there are variations that are not explored or discussed (damage avoidance for non-block tanks, etc).
    ctc - combat table coverage
    Wotlk - wrath of the lich king
    icc - ice crown citadel
    cata - cataclysm
    oom- out of mana

    Case any non-tanks might read this ill give breif explanations on tanking mechanics.
    ----Basic tanking concepts
    Firstly a quick reminder of what tanking means: The tanks responsability is to guarantee the safety of the party or raid team by taking the bulk of the damage. This is done through two basic game concepts.
    The first is to make sure the enemy is atacking you instead of your freinds. This is commonly known as threat and i will not discuss greatly as it is presently not a great concern since the recent buff blizz gave all tanks increasing threat generation from 300% extra aggro to 500% extra aggro (from defensive stance, bear form, righteous fury or blood presence).
    Ok. so the thing is hitting you. Great. Now your not supposed to die since, if dead, the foe will go back to squishing your freinds. Here comes in the second basic tanking concept which we call survivability. Survivability itself has to be broken down to be properly analyzed:
    -Firstly there is Health. This one is easy, when your health reaches zero, your dead. The more health you have, the farther away from zero.
    -Secondly there is passively reducing incoming damage. Armor applies to phisical strikes and resistances apply to magical or elemental atacks.
    -At last there is avoidance. Avoidace is a RNG (random number generator) dependant defense in which you may or may not take a hit. To better understand them, we must look at how the combat table works.

    The combat table
    Its a common missconception to think that when you are atacked there are a series of "tests" checking weither you parried, dodged, blocked or the atack missed. To properly prepare your tank its important to understand how a atack is actualy resolved. Blizzard has a giant "table", in our example we will keep it simple and make it numbering from 1 to 100. Each of your defenses is assigned to a series of numbers of this table. When atacked, a random number in the table (in our example 1-100) is rolled, and the atack is resolved acordingly. To examplify: Say you have 10% dodge, 15% parry,20% block and the boss misses you 5% of the times.
    The table would look like this:
    Number Result
    1-5 miss
    6-15 dodge
    16-30 parry
    31-50 block
    51-100 hit
    So if blizzards RNG rolled 60, you took the hit to the face. If they rolled a 7, you dodge it.
    Full Combat table coverage means you push hit out of the table by making the other options sufficiently high to fill it in.
    A important thing to clarify on block. Block is a avoidance. Its a % chance, and not passive damage mitigation. HOWEVER, when you have full CTC, you can consider every phisical atack against you will be at least blocked. Based on this assumption, theorycrafters consider blocking as phisical damage mitigation *only when you have complete and absolute CTC*, as if it were a phisical damage reduction like armor.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Edit: Tengenstein has pointed out that naming block avoidance is unconvencional and would be incorrect in a serious theoryrafting enviorment. To be "avoidance" it would have to block 100% damage. It is formally seen as phisical mitigation after full CTC, or just "block", a probable mitigation as aggathon named it, if before unhittable.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sidenote:
    For anyone curious as why to tanks usualy refer to the magic number 102.4% when reffering to CTC, this is because you lose 0.2% of each avoidance stat each level the boss has over you. For a raid boss its 0.2*3*4 (parry, dodge, block, miss), thus your losing 2.4% avoidance, and must have 102.4% to cover it properly.

    During WotLK - Stam stacking optimality
    From WotLK to cata, many things changed drasticly. Firstly, having full CTC in Wotlk was impossible exept for Paladins with a special gear set (holy shield used to give giant block chance increase, and have 100% uptime). Even with this, blocking worked differently, and instead of absorving a 30% of the hit, it absorved a fixed amount of damage which, on bosses, was almost irrelivant (any wise-crack mentioning anub should know the unhittable heroic anub tank set was for tanking adds. Im talking about bosses here). Avoidances were further crippled by the chill of the throne debuff in ICC reducing dodge by 20% (dodge was our highest avoidance back then).
    Another very important change that severley affected tanking at the time was healers mana. A Healer in WotLK would usualy spam flash heal non stop on their tanks and not go OOM.
    This allowed and incentivated tanks to fully gem, enchant and choose trinkets for stamina and properly tank, receiving a constant flow of big heals as their health dropped. Case someone reading up to this point wonders, "Nice, they can get away with stam stacking, but wouldent preventing a hit altogether with more dodge be better?", ill attempt to explain why tanks chose not to further on.

    Cata
    Early on in Cata many tanks (and their healers) suffered from old WotLK mentality. Healers mana regeneration was significantly nerfed with the expantion, spell costs increased, and a healer could not afford to spam flash heal (or whatever fast,big and expensive they had) constantly as before. A healer spamming flash heal would be dooming his party by going OOM. Likewise, a tank who took every hit to the face and forced such aggresive healing to prevent his death, due to itemization choices (stam stacking) also sealed his groups fate.
    It became clear that tanks needed to decrease damage intake to be healable consistently throughout a fight. New block mechanics allowed tanks to cover a significant (and later on all) of the combat table, and it became clear blizzards intention was to see tanks blocking hits often.
    The critical point - RNG
    The problem i see now a days is that just as everyone used to stack stam in icc without knowing why, tanks today stack mastery just because they see others do it or are told to. Stam stackers are shunned universally in memory of early cata in which that early mentality really did prove fatal to many early dungeon finder users.
    Why do we need full combat table coverage? Isint 95% of it good enough? After all, you will only get hit 5% of the time. Why is a tank stacking stamina worse?
    Its statistics.
    Imagine yourself holding a 6 sided die and telling me "Im going to roll three 6s in three rolls". Slim chance bud. Its 1/6*1/6*1/6 = 1/216. However, if you hold the same die and tell me "Im going to roll this 10.000 times and sometime you will see three 6s in a row", your making a damn good bet: You have over 99% chance of being right on, simply because of trial and error.
    Where does tanking come in?
    Its simple. Lets go back to WotLK. Inside ICC, it was impossible for any class to have full ctc. Even if it where possible, a large portion (more then 30%) would be block. At the time blocking was from 1.5K-2.5K damage reduction. Its not hard to see this is not very much when heroic lich king is hitting you for 70K.
    Because its impossible to have *full* coverage, during the course of a long fight (Eg: 10m LK fight), you can expect that sometime in there you will see a "worse case scenario". Even if you have 90% CTC, sometime you will get hit 5 times in a row. If you dont have enough health to soak up this damage, to give healers enough of a time buffer to cast their heals on you, your going down. This is why tanks stacked stam in ICC, and they were RIGHT to do it. They couldent possibly prefent the worse case scenarios from happening (by having full CTC), so, they make sure that when they do see it, they arent going down easy.
    Now in cata, we have the obligation to get full CTC. We can prevent this "worse case scenario". But once we have full CTC, what then? You could start swaping blocks for crit blocks, parrys, dodges, trying to push out the smaller 30% damage reduction from the table as well!! You could. But its wrong.
    Remember the first lines of this post, when we discussed the tanks "job"? If you re-read on survivablity, im sure you already agreed its our "job" to not die. This does not mean its our job to take the least possible damage, and how people are confusing the two now a days, with all of the "omg stack mastery" mentality!
    This because, unless you can indeed push out normal block from the hit table (for paladins it is impossible and will alweys be - we cant get 70% dodge and parry to make up for all the mastery), there will still be a worse case scenario in which all of that extra avoidance wont matter! And when it comes, you better have sufficiently high health buffer to take it!
    Therefore, after hitting CTC, tanks go back to their old time freind: Stamina.
    If someone did not understand or disagrees (im arrogant enough to state that these two are the same thing in this case. You only wont agree if you didint understand), here is a example.
    Say your fighting heroic Ragnaros. Both your tanks have full CTC, but tank A has 50% dodge+parry+miss(this is very high), and 180K hp buffed, the other, tank B, has only 35%(average, 15 dodge, 15 parry, 5 miss), and 200K buffed HP.
    Now, heroic ragīs fire trap deals 90K raidwide damage, and hits tanks for 70K (this is speculation. reg hits for 60, im guessing 70 on heroic), so lets consider the worse case scenario of having a trap go off and the tank getting hit imedeatly afterwards, and only blocking this atack (both have full CTC, so at least a block they will get). This obviously happens to both tanks since, even though tank A has 15% more avoidance, he still just blocks 50% of the time. This means 130K damage (90K from trap + 40K from a blocked hit). Alhough he can eat these hits with 50K hp to spare, tank A isint in a particularly confortable situation. Hes taking ticks from the tank debuff (normaly damaging from 5K/sec to 20K/sec depending on stacks) and before a heal lands may have as low as 30K hp. if the healer laggs one second and he is hit again, hes dead. Tank B has a more confortable buffer. he can take a tick and another atack before a heal lands and still wont die. Its easy to think of similar worse case scenarios, like your dedicated healer having to run from a boulder on P3, or running to avoid a wave. Its your obligation as a tank to make sure your giving this healer a health buffer that can give him time to do this safely, without depending on lucky rng and having you dodge that critical atack. Anyone arguing "thats what cooldowns are for" is being somewhat naive. Cooldowns help diminish incoming damage you are aware of, and are not alweys available. Worse case scenarios can be unforseen (including human or tecnical mistakes - healer dced, he missclicked, you stood on fire, whatever), and even if you pop a cd on every forseeable one, you will run out of CDs (Eg: cant pop a cd every trap).
    Aditionaly, more health might prevent bad mana and cooldown use from healers since, after eating those hits, you will have more health relative to your total, they wont feel desparate. Tank A would get a lay on hands and three flash heals from every healer in range when dropping to 30K(1/6th of his bar). But tank B would still be at 50K(1/4th of his bar, and healers would feel allright to use more "normal", and mana effective, healing).

    Conclusion
    The fundamental point im trying to make is that you will be harder to heal if you have less avoidance, but, as long as your healer can keep you up without going OOM, its sufficient, and more is a waste unless you can make another drastic change to the combat table. In our example, healers would feel tank A is easier to heal, but tank B will ultimately die less.
    He will die less because he touched a vital point in tanking, one that takes a while to realize exists. He is diminishing the impact of RNG. Tanks are a raids first and main shield against bad RNG. You stack mastery early on because you dont want to depend on the chance you will take the hit to the face. At some point, you stop increaing your avoidance simply because health is a safe investment. It might in average make you take less damage, but its alweys there.
    Tank B may take more damage then tank A, but he wont leave dying to chance.
    -------------------------------------
    Edit: Further down in the discussion thread Airowird pointed out some theorycrafting i was not aware of relating the benefit to survivability by increasing avoidance and increasing stamina. Link to the theorycrafting added at the end of the post. I stand to the concepts explained superficialy on this post, but do not take it as solid proof that stacking stam after CTC is optimal, this may be incorrect.

    -------------------------------------
    Well, thats all. Im gratefull to anyone who read all of this and hope you enjoyed it.

    Links - further info
    My absolute all time favoret post ever on tanking mechanics discussion. Its outdated (written for ICC), but most tanking mechanics have not changed and the concepts here explained are valid and enlightening (I learned many of the concepts im trying to pass from this link).
    Also contains imortant concepts such as EH(effective health) and TTL (time to live), which i did not cover due to diminished availability and quality of mitigation stats (armor and resistance).

    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...Do-What-We-Do-(An-in-depth-explanation-of-EHP-and-ICC-3.3.3-tanking-mechanics)
    Weekly marmot treating RNG and how to deal with it, one of the most interesting wow discussions i have ever seen on the net, and that inspired me to use RNG as a argument for explaining tanking principles:
    I think everyone, specially our raid leaders (dark, keid) should really really watch this!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4gcUDeYu-Y[/B][/B]

    Added link (thanks to Airowird -scroll down for his post).
    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...inary-results)

    Last edited by aresius; 10-02-2011 at 04:02 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    11
    where's the ten pages?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,930
    Calling Block Avoidance is counter to the standard terminology.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    312
    Great post, thank you that took time to type all this out. Agree with every word. Only thing to note, it will be interesting to see if warriors will be able to push normal block off the table in the next expansion. This may again change things.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    262
    Coming from a heroic mode tanking Warrior, I can tell you that more health is not really improving anything if you have the gear to be "hit-immune". It sounds good in theory to have more health once you reach full CTC, but since you are tanking with a 30-60% shield-wall for physical damage anyway, the worst case scenario is already easy enough to heal. And on the few challenging fights in terms of tank damage, healer-mana is/was an issue. A CTC-tank dying isnīt/wasnīt.

    Your Ragnaros heroic example isnīt really a good example, because the numbers are off and you describe a situation that would end in the tanks death no matter if he had 20k health more or less, because you assume the absence of any healing (not even HoTs) and the tank not using CDs while he canīt be healed for quite some time. All healers also are able to heal some while moving.

    The worst case scenario is:

    50k hit (30% blocked)
    18k tick Burning Wound
    90k trap damage (no CDs, just 10% resist)
    50k hit (30% blocked)
    18k tick Burning Wound
    --------------------
    226k damage within 2.x seconds

    Lesson? If your tank isnīt healed and he doesnīt pop CDs when he gets massive amounts of damage, he dies. You usually canīt stack enough HP to take on "one more big hit" of anything. Also, you make these worst case scenarios a lot more likely. A CTC-capped Warrior gets to ~60% critical block chance already and I wouldnīt trade that for some more HP.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,132
    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    Great post, thank you that took time to type all this out. Agree with every word. Only thing to note, it will be interesting to see if warriors will be able to push normal block off the table in the next expansion. This may again change things.
    Tier 13.0 is out, ilvl 397. Assuming they'll keep up with their pace 13.5 should be ilvl 410. Even on items with great itemisation (more sockets, avoidance socket boni, high mastery values) you should only see a ~ 80 rating difference, take http://www.wowhead.com/item=71405 versus http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/76988/c...ate-chestguard for instance.


    12% baseline block & critblock
    180 mastery adds 1.5% block & critblock

    We can utilise ~50% of the rating gains (other half being other stats), add ~ 75 rating on trinkets (over 391 ones) and we should end at a 500 mastery gain, unless everything is itemised perfectly (~800). That's up to 5000 mastery rating raidbuffed, but nowhere near the ~ 10600 mastery required to get to the 100% critical blocks


    @ Rowdy
    With stamina sockets and two stamina trinket i'd be at ~ 240k . We even pop three traps at once to maximise healer's mana (running without Replenishment, yay!) and come out nowwhere near your 90k trap damage in reality. Assuming that a tank won't pop a cooldown for a controlable incoming spike is absurd.
    Last edited by klausi; 10-01-2011 at 07:46 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    262
    And the other stats?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    312
    I was not clear. I don't mean permanently, but temporarily as a powerful cooldown combining SB with some trinket like Apparatus.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    144
    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    Coming from a heroic mode tanking Warrior, I can tell you that more health is not really improving anything if you have the gear to be "hit-immune".
    Well, im quite sure my proposition was never to drop first priority being push hit off the combat table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    Your Ragnaros heroic example isnīt really a good example, because the numbers are off ...
    Admitedly, i never fought heroic ragnaros. My guild is working on heroic baleroc. It might have been unfortunate to try to use a fight i have no experience in as a example. My line of thought was that, being the hardest fight, it would give more ammunition to the "unforseen worse case damage spike" argument. I didint want to use reg rag, or some early heroic like shannox because in these fights i really think you dont need much stam, they arent difficult enough. I was idealizing the heroic rag pre-nerfs, in which i heard trap damage was huge, but Ill try to think of a better example. Would be interesting to know how tanks were itemizing on the world first kills, at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    The worst case scenario is:

    50k hit (30% blocked)
    18k tick Burning Wound
    90k trap damage (no CDs, just 10% resist)
    50k hit (30% blocked)
    18k tick Burning Wound
    --------------------
    226k damage within 2.x seconds
    Well, you just gave a good example yourself. Say this happens and your dedicated healer is running for dear life from a boulder/wave badness combination, and on those critical 2-3 seconds your on your own. You have a couple of hots healing you, so you could say that in there somewhere you got 20K hp back. You will still need 205K hp to not die, which *is* (easly) obtainable in heroic gear while keeping full CTC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    Lesson? If your tank isnīt healed and he doesnīt pop CDs when he gets massive amounts of damage, he dies. You usually canīt stack enough HP to take on "one more big hit" of anything. Also, you make these worst case scenarios a lot more likely. A CTC-capped Warrior gets to ~60% critical block chance already and I wouldnīt trade that for some more HP.
    You can stack enough hp to take one more hit (blocked). Even if not, its easy to come up with situations in which you get a heal, but its not enough for the next incomming hit and then having some more hp would make a difference. The only point im trying to argue is that stam is guaranteed survivability increase, and not RNG.
    I mentioned i had paladins more in mind. In their case im convinced getting more dodge/parry is worse then getting health (Im irresponsably not doing the math atm, but i beleive its around somewhere from 3-8% more avoidance for 20-40K more health tradeoff).
    I beleived warriors were not able to push the normal block off the hit table (keeping only crit block), but, if i am wrong and this is possible, then your definitly right. 60% less daamage per hit in absolute worse case scenario is freakin awesome to a point id call it overpower (one of the reasons i did not beleive blizz would let it happen). If its "just" 60% crit block chance, im not "exaggerating" worse case scenarios. Block chances are usualy about 70% of any full ctc tankīs hit table. 40% of that is around 30% of total incoming atacks. Therefore, roughtly 1 out of three atacks are normal 30% blocks (another 1/3 are avoid, and 1/3 are crit blocks). Do i really need to give mathematical proof to show you that with a 30% chance of getting a simple block, its going to happen alot in a 10 min long fight?

    Thanks for the constructive criticism!
    Last edited by aresius; 10-01-2011 at 11:38 AM. Reason: fixing bad engrish!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    144
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Calling Block Avoidance is counter to the standard terminology.
    Well, it was my lasting impression there was no standard terminology for what to call block.
    Im unconfortable calling it mitigation while its still RNG dependant (aggathon calls it "probable mitigation").
    Though now you got me re-thinking, it may be wrong a mistake to call it avoidance since, differently from parry or dodge, you dont actualy avoid the hit.
    Still, when I chose to call it a avoidance i did so basicly because block shows up in the combat table. Blocking something makes you not take a "hit" in the table. Instead you take a "blocked hit", or a "crit blocked hit". And for the argumentation i was making, it was more interesting to group block up with avoidances then with static mitigation.
    Last edited by aresius; 10-01-2011 at 11:33 AM. Reason: fixing typos.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    144
    Quote Originally Posted by Cammi View Post
    where's the ten pages?
    Obviously i cant count.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,930
    Quote Originally Posted by aresius View Post
    Well, it was my lasting impression there was no standard terminology for what to call block.
    Im unconfortable calling it mitigation while its still RNG dependant (aggathon calls it "probable mitigation").
    Though now you got me re-thinking, it may be wrong a mistake to call it avoidance since, differently from parry or dodge, you dont actualy avoid the hit.
    Still, when I chose to call it a avoidance i did so basicly because block shows up in the combat table. Blocking something makes you not take a "hit" in the table. Instead you take a "blocked hit", or a "crit blocked hit". And for the argumentation i was making, it was more interesting to group block up with avoidances then with static mitigation.
    Block is called Block.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    144
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Block is called Block.
    And dodge is called dodge and armor is called dodge, your not being particularly helpfull. We still group dodge in the "avoidance" category and armor in the "mitigation" category. Though it may be imprecise to call block avoidance, it makes sense in the provided context. Ive seen theorycrafting posts calling block both avoidance or mitigation before, and think it makes sense to view it as avoidance if not unhittable, or mitigation if not unhittable.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    262
    Its always amazing when people tell me how an encounter I am progressing looks, when they have never even tried it

    Honestly, there are things like tank- and healer-cooldowns, instant-heals and overall good play. If you have to compensate skill with stacking stamina, you wonīt even see fights were this becomes a real issue. If Iīd be stacking more stamina, my healers would kill me and we likely would have had several wipes due to healers being OOM on Baleroc (pre-nerf) or on our Ragnaros heroic progress.

    To the point of "its easy to be CTC-capped": it may be for a Paladin and reasonable for a Night-Elf Warrrior. But if you are a non-NE Warrior, its actually pretty hard. My gear is pretty good and I am just slightly above the 102.4% with raid-buffs, food and the elixier. With BiS-gear, I probably could change two or three gems and one trinket to more stamina, but not much more. But then again Iīd have more HP because of the better gear anyway.

    I am not saying it is wrong, I just donīt get how your healers and you are somehow unable to react to some rare and challenging situations and your solution is "stack more stamina" instead of "communictae, pop a CD and preserve mana".

  15. #15
    I'm not even sure what's being argued here. Seems like everyone agrees that CTC is good, and stamina surely doesn't HURT anything, so...what're we talking about?

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,132
    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    Its always amazing when people tell me how an encounter I am progressing looks, when they have never even tried it
    Killed him after ~ 400 trys, but neither full ctc nor a being a stamina sponge would have stopped me from popping a cooldown for traps/seeds/several occassions in phase 4.

    But Ragnaros isn't a good example, tank damage isn't THAT bad (peaking to 12-14k during phase 4 once in a while, average 7.5k) - i actually tank him with several dps pieces plus strength food/flask to push 1 meteor more reliable. What can cause problems is tank damage combined with lots of raid damage from time to time (eg during second transition) or phase 4 with odd trap positionings or before the first frost patch even spawned.

    Full CTC is overvalued here because regulary you won't tank him for longer than 20s(-30s), that's enough time to squeeze in a shield block and 4 piece covering 66-100% leaving you with a maximum of 10 seconds vulnerable to back to back regular hits - more likely it's way less (especially if you watch out for his World in Flame or Hammer cast when he actually hits nobody at all) because you want as few burning wound stacks as possible. At the end of a 11-12 minutes fight i find myself at less than 10 regular melee attacks including the ones from Molten Elementals.
    Last edited by klausi; 10-01-2011 at 05:14 PM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,930
    Quote Originally Posted by aresius View Post
    And dodge is called dodge and armor is called dodge, your not being particularly helpfull. We still group dodge in the "avoidance" category and armor in the "mitigation" category. Though it may be imprecise to call block avoidance, it makes sense in the provided context. Ive seen theorycrafting posts calling block both avoidance or mitigation before, and think it makes sense to view it as avoidance if not unhittable, or mitigation if not unhittable.
    Block is block, avoidance is avoidance, mitigation is mitigation. Dodge, parry and miss are quite similar. Increasing them does not have the same effect as increasing block, or armour. Before full combat table Block is Block, after full CTC it's mitigation, the only time Block is avoidance is if you mitigate 100% of the damage with block, something we haven't been able to do since 3.5.

    You're trying to shoehorn stuff into boxes how you like, and that isn't the consensus that's been reached over the years. Blocks a strange creature, just give it it's own box.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    2,335
    Quote Originally Posted by aresius View Post
    The fundamental point im trying to make is that you will be harder to heal if you have less avoidance, but, as long as your healer can keep you up without going OOM, its sufficient, and more is a waste unless you can make another drastic change to the combat table. In our example, healers would feel tank A is easier to heal, but tank B will ultimately die less.
    He will die less because he touched a vital point in tanking, one that takes a while to realize exists. He is diminishing the impact of RNG. Tanks are a raids first and main shield against bad RNG. You stack mastery early on because you dont want to depend on the chance you will take the hit to the face. At some point, you stop increaing your avoidance simply because health is a safe investment. It might in average make you take less damage, but its alweys there.
    Tank B may take more damage then tank A, but he wont leave dying to chance.

    Well, thats all. Im gratefull to anyone who read all of this and hope you enjoyed it.
    I'm going to touch mainly on this part.
    First of all, you assume healers can keep you up without any issues. This means that your assumption also includes that either a) Healers can always do more healing than the boss can do in DPS or b) you have a self-preserving CD always available which you can use AFTER a certain amount of damage has already been dealt to you (or you are phychic and know when that streak is coming).
    I hope I don't need to explain the issues with those assumptions.

    Secondly, and this is the part I've spent dozens if not hundreds of hours thinking and modelling about, there is a balancing point between avoidance and stamina at a certain point. When does Tank A in your example have enough health or when does Tank B just sit on miles and miles of green bar that never gets used? And what are the odds that Tank A will actually get such a streak in a Xs window compared to Tank B? Is it the same, or half as often? (in your example, it's 40% more likely Tank B will actually be in this danger zone compared to Tank A, so while A will have less HP left, he'll be in such a dangerous situation less often) These are things I find missing in your explanation.
    So far, the best model that takes all of this into account is still the Burst Time model which is especially true once you hit Unhittable (or you don't tank with a shield). While it doesn't take healing into account directly, it focuses on reducing the frequency spikes (emergency heals are less efficient = healers OOM faster) as well as allowing healers to cast slow big heals through your bigger health pool.

    And finally (and this is my biggest issue) :
    Your post seems to dictate a simplistic model of "stack Mastery untill Unhittable, then stack Stamina". This is relatively short-sighted, as you do not even make a difference between gemming and reforging (can't reforge to Stamina) and the value of Armour (which usually makes a higher ilvl Dodge/Parry item atleast as good as a lower Dodge/Mastery one)

    Here's the complete runthrough of gearing from hitting 85 to killing heroic Chinwing

    The point of starting with Mastery as a new tank (any class really) is double:
    First of all, it helps you smooth out damage which makes it easier on the healer(s). We're talking miles away from Unhittable here.
    Secondly, it reduces more damage than avoidance will (except some 325 geared Warriors, but once they hit heroics it's the same for them as well), which puts it over Dodge/Parry for damage reduction, even without the first argument. And as Mastery has no DR, it will be increasingly better than full avoidance stats as you gear up (especially true for Warriors)

    Now assume your shield tank is coming close to Unhittable, the chance to be fully hit is low (<10%) and your Block chance will be around 50% which will result in the perception that Block is not a reduced hit anymore, but a full hit is a bigger-than-normal hit ( 145%, close to Crushing Blows). At a point close to Unhittable, the chance of these happening is actually pretty low, but nothing beats guarantees for a tank, and capping that block is worth it, especially because Mastery still reduces more damage than avoidance will. Even if it's just a 0.1% chance you'll 'fall over and die', you'ld rather not have that chance at all.

    Now comes the important part:
    What to do after Unhittable? As you can't really get more Armour, your only options are Avoidance vs Stamina (by reforging extra Mastery back to Dodge/Parry or regemming to Stamina) and it is exactly at this point that the Burst Time model comes into play. It is important at this point to not only have enough HP for big streaks, but also to try and reduce these streaks as much as you can, and at 30-35% avoidance, you are starting to hit the big slope of reducing those odds. The exact value of the available stats largely depends on your gear and the boss you're progressing on, but I could make a general suggestion that the first thing to look at once you hit Unhittable is to start gemming more towards any socket bonus you skipped before (except expertise/hit). Because generally speaking, the value of avoidance and HP at this point are close enough that an extra 10 stat points from the bonus is easily worth the gem change. But really, there is no exact order of stats similar to what DPS or even healers have (e.g. hit/exp caps or Spirit regen just enough for the longest fight)

    Addendum: Critical Block
    I specificly ignored Crit Block in virtually all of the above, simply because it is too specific for this discussion. But for those that are interested: Crit Block gives Mastery an exponentially increasing value. This means that unlike Paladins, Mastery past Unhittable on Warriors does still provide extra damage reduction, but only at a rate of ~20-25% of it's pre-Unhittable gain, making it as bad as Strength. This means that unlike with Paladins, replacing Block on the combat table with avoidance slightly decreases the damage reduction gained from Block overall. Luckily, the more Mastery you replace with avoidance ratings, the less damage reduction you lose from the Block mechanic. At the Unhittable point Warriors will still have slightly more 'spikey' damage income, but not to a point where this is an issue. It will just mean that when counting in overall damage reduction, Warriors will (again, generally speaking) favor Stamina slightly more than Paladins at the same Avoidance & HP levels. But this is a very specific, math-heavy topic which doesn't really fit the current discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
    Warlords of Draenor One Minute Field Guides

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    2,067
    Quote Originally Posted by aresius View Post
    And dodge is called dodge and armor is called dodge
    wait what?
    -Jimmy

    |Ex Tank|

    TWITCH.TV STREAM


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    262
    @ klausi

    Again: what are your other stats? I suppose you are a Paladin and thats not what I was talking about, because it is a lot easier to get CTC-capped as a Paladin. Hence my "Coming from a heroic mode tanking Warrior". (On another note: that worst-case scenario becomes a lot less "worse" because of a guaranteed 40% block-chance for a Paladin)

    If you arenīt a Nigh-Elf, even in BiS tanking gear you wonīt be able to switch more than one mastery-/avoidance-trinket (+ maybe two or three gems) and that will give about 10.000-12.000 additional health for about 4% block or 2,x% pure avoidance. Even Warriors that have an average iLevel of 388 have mastery-gems (three green ones for the meta-gem, of course), because theyīd lose CTC if they didnīt.

    Also, as you said, Ragnaros heroic is a bad example. My healers donīt have to move and if they do (seeds in P2, moving to a new frost-blaze in P4 etc.), I pop a CD (or they do or whatever). For example, the average Magma-Trap hits me for 54.000 damage and not for 90k, because I do use CDs/trinkets when they are triggered. We only have had ~50-60 tries on him and I never died because of normal tank damage. And its been the same for every boss. If you need a lot of healing, your healers are able to stand still (Baleroc, for example.), on other bosses, I survive quite long without healing anyway.

    tl;dr: I donīt say its wrong to go for more stamina. I just donīt see the benefits and it is a non-issue for Warriors anyway (probably until 4.3). No one tells their DPS to get more stamina in order to survive some scenarios neither.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts