Revenge Viable Yet Again

[Aggathon]

I don't get it, are you arguing for or against gearing certain people first for the overall benefit of the raid?

[kopcap]

Good guilds gear their DPS first and most. Shorter fights is the best mitigation and mana conservation. Heals and tanks can wait. I try to never bid on drops which core DPS still want.

[Aggathon]

While I agree and that has been my philosophy, that hasn't been the track record in the past is my point. Most top end guilds in TBC and WotLK geared tanks first. Tank death = wipe, dead DPS do zero DPS (as far as an extra raid cooldown goes).

Now a lot of this is also dependent upon raid mechanics. If there's a boss that you NEED an extra raid cooldown on then gearing the tank is a consideration. If there's not then... who cares? Divide up gear as you normally would.

[Hnetto]

Am i the only one that see the 4 piece as a good thing? I like the ideia that my cooldown can be used not only on my personal emergencies but also as a raid utility. Since they introduced rallying cry i saved several people from dying by using it on the right moment.

Might be the 10 man mentality on me where the loss of any raid member during the fight is quite a bit hard but in my mind it seems clear that we just gained more utility.

The 2 piece however seems more like Blizzard testing a model for active mitigation. I doubt that they will increase the damage output of revenge to make the shield more viable, but i mostly would bet on a cooldown reduction on it to make it usable more often thus keeping the shield up more often.

Personally i see this reduction as active mitigation. A weak one, but an start on the model change.

[Airowird]

The problem most tanks have with the 4p boni is that (unless they're a Paladin) they have to sacrifice their own CD to use a raid CD.
If a certain boss tactic requires tanks to use their own personal CD, then you will pop a raid CD regardless if raid is taking damage or not.

Firelands doesn't have a great example, but e.g. a fight like Maloriak provides a situation where you want to use a raid CD (red vial), but will have to consider not being able to use the personal benefit in the near future (e.g. execute/enrage phase)

[Pruke]

I see they changed paladins/druids 2pc/4pc. Looks like paladins shields going to be 25% and warriors will be 20%. Druids bonus looks decent on paper.

[Tengenstein]

That doesn't bode well for Revenge.

[Kahmal]

Sorry, just want to chime in since i just returned to WoW....how is Revenge not viable? With Imp Revenge it does way more damage then Devestate does it not?

[Tengenstein]

No. Once you take into account Devastate's increased crit rate and thus extra damage from Deep wounds, Revenge's Damage per execute is only about 90% that of Devastate. It one advantage is that it's cheaper, and hits two targets, however in both AoE and single target situations sims show that even in extreme low rage situations (i.e. only using HS/Cleave on average every 6 seconds) it still best to skip Imp.Rev in favour of Thunderstruck. The only point where revenge is really viable right now is if you have 5-14 rage and need to hit a mob with something anything

The T13 2pc actually gives us a reason to use it as part of our standard rotation, but in my opinion its a band aid fix.

[Kahmal]

No. Once you take into account Devastate's increased crit rate and thus extra damage from Deep wounds, Revenge's Damage per execute is only about 90% that of Devastate. It one advantage is that it's cheaper, and hits two targets, however in both AoE and single target situations sims show that even in extreme low rage situations (i.e. only using HS/Cleave on average every 6 seconds) it still best to skip Imp.Rev in favour of Thunderstruck. The only point where revenge is really viable right now is if you have 5-14 rage and need to hit a mob with something anything

The T13 2pc actually gives us a reason to use it as part of our standard rotation, but in my opinion its a band aid fix.

Is Shockwave still used on Single Target? or is it just Sheild Slam > Dev

[Tengenstein]

Simple answer: yes

Detailed answer: it depends on your vengeance and the ilvl of your MH weapon and how many stacks of thunderstruck at low vengeance levels Devastate is incredibly powerful due its poor scaling from AP and good scaling from weapon damage.

the Single target optimal rotation now consists of 5 things you should prioritise

1. Shield Slamming
2. Maintaining Rend (assuming the target will live long enough)
3. Shortening the CD of shield slam
4. Trucking; basically using which ever ability produces the most damage/threat
5. Dumping excess rage