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Thread: Protection Warrior Reforging Questions

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad View Post
    Unhittable when parry+dodge+miss+block=102,4%
    What kind of number is 102,4% ?
    I've never seen such a thing.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TankerTom View Post
    What kind of number is 102,4% ?
    I've never seen such a thing.
    It's 100% + 3 (level difference) * 0.2% * #table entries (miss, dodge, parry, block = 4)
    Total: 102.4%
    Technicly, your actual miss/dodge/parry/block chances are 0.6% lower than the paperdoll numbers when tanking a boss, which then would total to exactly 100%, but most people tend to prefer to aim for the paperdoll number to make it easier.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerchunk View Post
    Hmm, just put on DPS gear... not just expertise/hit, but everything. I do 5-mans in almost all DPS gear except my shield & weapon. At appropriate iLvls and a moderately competent healer, you don't need the survival stats and you will do 30k+ dps on trash pulls.

    Just remember to go back to normal sets for tough bosses (or raid night).
    You seem to me like one of those people that think you can tank in pvp gear (or dps gear like you say, which makes the same difference). Wear the right gear for the job or don't bother ever queuing as tank. Stressing the healer needlessly in order to go faster only gets you one thing: a guaranteed spot on the failboat. The best healers don't put up with that, and they shouldn't. Dungeons aren't a racetrack, nomatter how much ADD you have, you still need to work as a team, the rest of the group isn't there to carry you through.

  4. #24
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    Pros tank 5 mans in dps gear, always been that way! (or at least hit/exp cap and dps trinkets)

  5. #25
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    Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but at least until 4.3 comes out I believe this graph still holds true.


  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreagar View Post
    Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but at least until 4.3 comes out I believe this graph still holds true.
    The dimension that this graph does not carry is incoming attack frequency - which has a dramatic effect on parry's value. Heck, it doesn't even note the attack speed for which the graph was generated.
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  7. #27
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    Kolmagorov made the graph and in the accompanying thread on MMO-C he explains it a little bit;

    The difference between the 'optimal' ratio and a very bad one is in the hundredths of a percent of damage taken. It's much more important to simply try and get gear with a lot of defensive stats, and have as much of that as possible be mastery. After that, if you can get your parry:dodge ratio to anywhere in the 1 to 1.4 range, that's good enough.

    The graph was created assuming a boss with a medium swing timer [2 seconds], and this graph applies most directly to that situation. Any situation with adds, or a very slow hitting boss will skew the optimal ratio one way or the other, and let me reiterate that small deviations from that ratio bear practically no penalty.

    I made the graph because it's nice to understand that Hold the Line doesn't make parry a godly stat. Before I made the original one, i was running around with a parry:dodge ratio of 2.2 or something ridiculous. Hopefully it gets across the idea that parry is a little bit better than dodge... and just a little bit. It's also neat to see the relationship between mastery and parry as Hold the Line gives them an interesting synergy.

  8. #28
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    diminishing returns......now i understand lol ty

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booi View Post
    The dimension that this graph does not carry is incoming attack frequency - which has a dramatic effect on parry's value. Heck, it doesn't even note the attack speed for which the graph was generated.
    Not sure why those matter. You're looking at two varaibles - dodge and parry - that are equally affected by the attack frequency/swing timer. It's simply identifying the optimal distribution of dodge/parry with hold the line factored in. Whether the swing timer is 1 second or 600 seconds, the compartive value of dodge and parry will remain since both are equally affected by the rate of incoming attacks.

    I'm not sure why you think attack speed (effectively the exact same thing as frequency) is necessary when comparing dodgearry?
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  10. #30
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    I suspect it's to do with clipping Hold the Line. Massively simplified explantion of it is that the slower the boss swing timer the more parry I need to keep HtL up and the higher the chance its going to go it s full duration before being refreshed where as with a fast swing timer i don't need to parry so many of them to keep it up and am going to end up clipping it more often.

    Fast swing timers(like baleroc) down shift the curves on the graph, slower swing (like Chimaeron) timers up shift them.

    ..If's i'm not talking out my arse.

  11. #31
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    Teng, you are correct.

    The only reason we don't maintain a 1:1 ratio on dodge to parry is because of hold the line. The offset on the ratio is what covers the benefit of increased block value due to HtL. Essentially we are willing to sacrifice some avoidance by riding higher on the parry DR, - allowing for better HtL uptime. This is why the graph exists in the first place.

    Being closer to 1:1 helps when still reaching for unhittability, the benefit of which is lost on this graph as well. The willingness to take more damage, but smoother damage - something that fighting for the ideal ratio contradicts. You take less damage, but more unblocked hits (which contradicts why we stack mastery in the first place).

    If you always aim for 1:1 (and won't reach it due to parry from str) you're likely closer to the best setup for your toon than if you aim for the arbitrary ratio in the graph above. Not that you could detect the difference in these two strategies, and more likely they would come up with same reforge pattern anyways.


    TLDR:
    1) Before Unhittability, striving for this ideal ratio above contradicts the reason you stack mastery in the first place - aim for 1:1.
    2) After Unhittability, I suspect the best strategy is to get as much parry as you can while maintaining unhittability.
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booi View Post
    If you always aim for 1:1 (and won't reach it due to parry from str) you're likely closer to the best setup for your toon than if you aim for the arbitrary ratio in the graph above.
    How is that???

    Not that you could detect the difference in these two strategies, and more likely they would come up with same reforge pattern anyways.
    I don't understand what you are saying here.

    After Unhittability, I suspect the best strategy is to get as much parry as you can while maintaining unhittability.
    Based on what?

  13. #33
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    @kopcap

    1) Reforging parry to dodge i have never ended up with more dodge than parry. Because 27% of your strength is converted to parry, and because blizzard gives us balanced stat weights, and reforging only reforges 60% of a stat - it makes it difficult (functionally impossible) to get more dodge than parry.

    2) The graph above suggests that there is a dramatic difference between reforging with one strat over another. But there isn't. The difference is in the fraction of percentage points. If you went over the logs from two different tanks with different reforge strategies, the RNG in the fight would have a greater impact on the logs than their reforge strategy. You wouldn't be able to "detect" the difference. (Not to say that there isn't a theoretical difference, or that you shouldn't try to optimize your character).

    The comment about the same reforge pattern is this:
    If I reforge for the ideal ratio in the graph (2 second swing speed) I'm reforging out of parry and into dodge. This reforge is identical when I were to aim for a 1:1 ratio. The justification may be different: but the result is identical.

    3) The premise is this:
    a) Unblocked hits kill tanks. Getting those off the table is your number one priority (1:1 ratio accomplishes that fastest).
    b) Hold the Line provides bonus chance to critically block. You must have already blocked the hit to gain the chance at the benefit.
    c) If unblocked hits are off the table, 30% blocked hits are now the largest hit you take, and the most likely cause of your death.
    d) Now the unattainable goal is to get non-crit blocked hits off the table. This is done through gaining avoidance and gaining crit block
    e) Parry provides both (and our parry:dodge ratio is on the low end for maximum damage reduction as we were aiming for 1:1, the only way to go is up)
    Last edited by Booi; 11-13-2011 at 07:48 AM. Reason: typos and reforge pattern note
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  14. #34
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    1) Pretty sure I saw paladins with higher dodge, and I think I remember myself being able to surpass 1:1, or at least come very close, after raid buffs when I was finishing CTC.

    2) I still don't understand. Obv you can't see anything on the logs because the sample size is laughable. Hence the graph. You can't just say that its meaningless, you have to substantiate it with either a better theory or a sim.

    2.1) Graph is fully raid buffed. So no, the result is different.

    3) Here is the thing your missing. If you push parry, you push increasing DRs, you push gaps in CTC, which you have to patch with mastery rating. Which for all practical purposes translates into stamina, as they are all corelated, you can't push one without hurting all others. Following your logic, parry is warriors best stat in the game and we should stack it above all. Well, stack parry while keeping CTC on the dot, same thing.

    What the graph shows is how good HtL is. That at some numbers HtL is able to push parry weight above other stats. The margin where HtL boosts parry higher than normal, where it makes sense to sacrifice more rating than you would at 1:1 ratio.
    Last edited by kopcap; 11-13-2011 at 08:31 AM.

  15. #35
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    I have a human warrior tank, and I have recently taken a break from the game, only a couple of months though. I have 1 question, back in BC, Dodge used to be one of the most important stats. I know that currently it is Mastery, but why is this?
    I always used to favour Avoidance and I still cant work out why we drop avoidance for block.
    My current stats are approx, 13% Dodge, 16% Parry and 57% Block. Can anyone suggest what I should be trying to achieve please?
    Last edited by Delius; 11-13-2011 at 11:24 AM. Reason: Needed more info

  16. #36
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    For a start Block doesn't suffer diminishing returns, Warriors actually get increasing returns from it. Stacking both avoidances you'll soon run into harsh diminishing return territory where you aren't really getting alot of percentage for your ratings. heavily stacking one will just exacerbate this

    You want to have a combined Dodge Block Parry and Miss chance on your character sheet of 102.4% or as close to it as possible so as as to take a few Unblocked hits as possible
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 11-13-2011 at 12:58 PM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    1) Pretty sure I saw paladins with higher dodge, and I think I remember myself being able to surpass 1:1, or at least come very close, after raid buffs when I was finishing CTC.
    Paladins also have the freedom to reforge out of mastery, which affords them some room on rating ratios.

    2) I still don't understand. Obv you can't see anything on the logs because the sample size is laughable. Hence the graph. You can't just say that its meaningless, you have to substantiate it with either a better theory or a sim.
    I didn't say it was meaningless. And like the EH argument, you lose out on sims. You would take more damage, but smoother damage. Even in the early days avoidance was less damage taken than taking mastery, and yet we stacked mastery: not because it is ahead on any sims.

    Do we even have an accurate healing model to use in these type of situations?

    2.1) Graph is fully raid buffed. So no, the result is different.
    Then aim for the 1:1 ratio with raid buffs. The result is the same (at least on my toon).

    3) Here is the thing your missing. If you push parry, you push increasing DRs, you push gaps in CTC, which you have to patch with mastery rating. Which for all practical purposes translates into stamina, as they are all corelated, you can't push one without hurting all others. Following your logic, parry is warriors best stat in the game and we should stack it above all. Well, stack parry while keeping CTC on the dot, same thing.
    I am suggesting that in the rating comparisons, while unhittable, that parry is your best stat: yes.


    What the graph shows is how good HtL is. That at some numbers HtL is able to push parry weight above other stats. The margin where HtL boosts parry higher than normal, where it makes sense to sacrifice more rating than you would at 1:1 ratio.
    And all I'm saying is that doing so sacrifices combat table coverage. Which it does. And since unblocked hits are equivalent to crushing blows, why take more when you can take less?
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerchunk View Post
    Hmm, just put on DPS gear... not just expertise/hit, but everything. I do 5-mans in almost all DPS gear except my shield & weapon. At appropriate iLvls and a moderately competent healer, you don't need the survival stats and you will do 30k+ dps on trash pulls.

    Just remember to go back to normal sets for tough bosses (or raid night).
    You are the guy nobody wants to have as a tank.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booi View Post
    Paladins also have the freedom to reforge out of mastery, which affords them some room on rating ratios.
    So does any geared warrior, and cheaper. Checked in BiS, we can have more dodge rating than parry with full "into mastery" reforging by just juggling avoidance ratings.

    And like the EH argument, you lose out on sims.
    Not sure, what argument and what sims?

    You would take more damage, but smoother damage. Even in the early days avoidance was less damage taken than taking mastery, and yet we stacked mastery: not because it is ahead on any sims.
    This is a bad example. First, mastery had increasing returns, avoidance is diminishing. Second, by pushing parry after unhittable you actually increase the proportion of normal blocks on the table, but using more HtL to compensate. Third, you suggest to rely on an RNG that has under 20% to proc because its smoother? Yes, high uptime, but there will easily be 10-15 second stretches with no HtL buff. But thats ok. Issue is the higher you stack parry, the more expensive it gets to get an extra 0.01% of HtL uptime. The graph shows you where to stop. But where do you suggest we stop? Should we push all the way even if it only means an extra 0.1% increase for HtL uptime? Where is the breaking point?

    Then aim for the 1:1 ratio with raid buffs. The result is the same (at least on my toon).
    I think we lost each other. 1:1 is not what the graph suggests, it can't be the same.

    I am suggesting that in the rating comparisons, while unhittable, that parry is your best stat: yes.
    Do you see that parry at 1000 rating is not the same as parry at 5000 rating? And that it affects HtL accordingly?

    Besides, you seem to be going hard at dodge on Armory. I am confused.
    Last edited by kopcap; 11-14-2011 at 09:16 AM.

  20. #40
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    Avoiding more semantic rubbish:

    All that I'm saying is that:
    1) We stacked mastery for combat table coverage, more damage, but smoother damage.
    2) Following the HtL generated ratios for damage reduction contradicts the foundation of our gearing strategy (Before unhittable).
    Last edited by Booi; 11-14-2011 at 10:28 AM.
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

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