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Thread: Heroic Shannox Discussion

  1. #21
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    We're all having a fight about we need to farm normals some more for better gear, but we're not hitting the enrage or no where near hitting it so I think it's just a mechanics issues they, however, do not think its that.

    And I thought face rage kinda froze the person in place for like 3 seconds, how are they going to kite if they can't move o.o.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esarael View Post
    Tanks have to kite dogs/Shannox on his fight; tell your DPS to position themselves better and deal with it.
    False.
    Our method is to tank shannox and riplimp *very* far apart (one healer that can heal one of the tanks is not in range for the other). Our prot warrior on riplimp, when seeing the spear throw, heroic leaps and intervines twards me. The dog follows him untill in melee range before going back for the spear. In this moment he is running back he is vulnerable to slows. Our mage slows the dog. By the time he gets to the spear, and back to shannox both my stacks and the warriors reset. I didint move at all.
    Naturally, you dont have a prot warrior or a mage in your composition, but you can work around and keep a similar strat. Have the priest lifegrip your bear and them have him charge to shannox when spear is thrown. Have the lock or S priest slow him.
    The idea is to have the riplimp tank get his dog as far away from the spear as possible before the dog turns to get it, enhancing slow time on the dog. If you dont have that slow time this fight is chaos. Melee dps cant dps at all if you keep kiting the dog and their complaint is valid, your not preforming the fight as intended.
    Last edited by aresius; 10-22-2011 at 09:06 PM.

  3. #23
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    100k tonight and we essentially 7 manned it with all the DCs we had tonight =/. DK on rip myself on shannox. If our two healers wouldnt of went to try and dps and kept me up we would of killed it

  4. #24
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    Notice aresius that all his DPS is ranged, so that good positioning and smart kiting ensure that DPS downtime is minimal and essentially a nonissue. Also, while what you said about Prot Warriors is true (and the Warrior himself can handle the slowing with Charge and Piercing Howl/Stance dance and Hamstring), they don't have Prot Warrriors.

    And while you could try to partially reproduce that with a Priest, Lifegrip does have a 1.5min CD so that it would only be doable every 3 Hurl Spears. You will probably need to kite at some point in between, if anything if the Lifegrip~ goes wrong. Kiting is a foolproof strategy that might bring your DPS down a little - but since this does not have a tight enrage timer or any kind of soft enrage mechanics, I'd say go for the control route.

    If you have a DK that could tank Riplimb, I'd say it's a nice choice since he can easily handle the slowing of Riplimb with Chains of Ice himself. Notice that this is important; when the spear lands, Riplimb will be vulnerable to slows and this maximizes the time it takes for him to get to Shannox. It is true that Riplimb recovers steadily from the slow, but it makes a huge difference even then. Since we don't use any of the mobility strategies listed above, we find that we still need to do some kiting, even though they're tanked at max range from each other (you should do that!).

  5. #25
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    What is max range though? We've tried 90yds, 80yds on heroic and we'll still get separation warnings for em.

  6. #26
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    60 yards is the range that triggers Separation Anxiety, so I'd stop around 55 or so just to be safe. That gives you tons of range for slowing Riplimb, plus a safe distance.
    I'm way better at holding my liquor than a panda.

  7. #27
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    80 yards, not 60.

  8. #28
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    Any addons that will tell you if you're getting to far or how many yards apart you are?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esarael View Post
    Notice aresius that all his DPS is ranged, so that good positioning and smart kiting ensure that DPS downtime is minimal and essentially a nonissue.
    In truth i didnot notice that. Perhaps you could pull it off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esarael View Post
    Also, while what you said about Prot Warriors is true (and the Warrior himself can handle the slowing with Charge and Piercing Howl/Stance dance and Hamstring), they don't have Prot Warrriors.
    I made clear i noticed they do not have a protwarrior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esarael View Post
    And while you could try to partially reproduce that with a Priest, Lifegrip does have a 1.5min CD so that it would only be doable every 3 Hurl Spears.
    He mentioned 2 priests, one discipline and one shadow. If its possible for a shadow priest to grip (I honestly dont know), it would be more often.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esarael View Post
    You will probably need to kite at some point in between, if anything if the Lifegrip~ goes wrong.
    I dont beleive the MT should NOT kite if things are going wrong. Ofcourse he should try to drop his stacks. Im stating that a strategy based on Kiting is flawed and unellegant. Speaking of unellegant, we once had our regular slower mage miss a raid and had someone fill in. He didint catch on to what he had to do imediatly and i wasent expecting to need to kite around and let my stacks go high. We found out that our healers could keep me up easly with 8 stacks. Honestly, if you only reset them every other spear throw thats fine. Might not be clean. Might not be ideal, but the boss will die.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esarael View Post
    Kiting is a foolproof strategy that might bring your DPS down a little - but since this does not have a tight enrage timer or any kind of soft enrage mechanics, I'd say go for the control route.
    Well, if sometime they end up having 2 melee dps in the group they will have to re-learn the fight.I beleive movement and positioning is the most difficult part of the game. All fights considered "hard" require the raid to have coordinated movement from one side to another and i beleive that is what makes it difficult.
    Introducing unnecissary movement is plain bad. If there is a way to keep the boss static, you should learn to do it that way.
    As a tank you can LOS a healer around a rock, getout of healer range, bring the boss away from dps range,step on a trap you didint see or simply stop for a slit second and not reset your stacks.
    You can argue anything above is avoidable, a screw up, bad tanking. Its also avoidable by simply not kiting the boss around. I beleive even good players make mistakes, and a good strategy minimizes the amount of things you need to worry about.
    The absolute last thing id call this "strategy" (I see it as brute forcing the fight) is "failproof".

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esarael View Post
    80 yards, not 60.
    I was basing my advice on that of the original post, which appears to have been copied from the dungeon journal itself. If it was incorrect, that's fine. My apologies! But that also means the OP was incorrect, as was Blizzard. The following is copied from the original post to serve as citation.

    Separation Anxiety: When the distance between the huntsman and his pets grows too great (~60 yards), both become extremely agitated, increasing their damage and attack speed by 100%. Lasts 4 seconds.
    I'm way better at holding my liquor than a panda.

  11. #31
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    It is perhaps 60 in Normal mode Charon; following your link, on the comments section, user murdershot21 states that "Both dogs and Shannox gain this when any of them are 60(80 Heroic) yards away from each other".

    Also aresius, a Shadow Priest can Lifegrip and that was an oversight of mine. That makes it a pretty viable strategy. Kiting might be unelegant, yes, but I've found it to be highly effective in general simply because DPS is an absolute nonissue on this fight. Having the boss stand still might be great for the first minute or so and your melee DPS will be happy during that time, but traps will start to pile up on close range of the boss and it will make life harder for both your melee DPS and for your Rageface trapper (as one of them, I can say it's absolutely awful when a crystal prison trap is surrounded by immolation traps).

    I guess each strategy has its pros and cons, and you should probably experiment and see what's best for your group/comp. We did initially try that, having both a Discipline Priest and a Protection Warrior on our group, but it didn't work out very well due to us having almost no snares available and generally the Warrior screwing up the Heroic Leap/Intervene/(Charge/Intercept) + Piercing Howl/Hamstring combo.

  12. #32
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    We actualy did try the kiting strat when we first started working on him. We wiped 6 times with that and after a couple of trys with the static strat we nailed him, hence why i hate the kiting strat so much, it was terrible for us. I can understand groups vary, do whatever works for you guys i guess.
    Our warrior is awesome (although me and him have a little inside joke we keep calling eachother fail), and got the leap/interviene right away, only downside i see in the static strat once its all going as expected is its boring as hell for the MT. "Stand still. move out of a trap. Drag shann a bit away from this crystal trap. That guy might need a HoP... nevermind, rageface is off him. etc etc."
    A side note:expecting the warrior to do the slows himself is kinda harsh. As far as i know piercing howl is a talent in the fury tree, even if its reachable while in prot spec, he would sacrifice alot to get it and need to respec, and hamstring is only usable in battle stance. It really helps if its a dps, preferably a mage, and preferably the same one thats on ragefaces crit hit duty.
    Last edited by aresius; 10-25-2011 at 04:09 AM.

  13. #33
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    Referring to it as "kiting strategy" sounds too respectable to me, to be honest We didnīt use it because we kinda expected Blizzard to fix this, because it is just ludacris, has nothing to do with managing the ecounter mechanics and we didnīt want to practice somethign that felt so much like exploiting a mechanic. But since Blizzard seems to be okay with people dragging Shannox around for 15+ seconds, it is a viable way to do the boss, I suppose.

    I think it is the most stable way to do this fight if you donīt have a Warrior as the tank for Riplimb.

    A side note:expecting the warrior to do the slows himself is kinda harsh. As far as i know piercing howl is a talent in the fury tree, even if its reachable while in prot spec, he would sacrifice alot to get it and need to respec,
    I donīt think the Warrior loses anything significant. The only reason I donīt use this spec anymore for everything is that I need every point of damage on Ragnaros heroic. Other than that, there is no reason imo not to spec this way, you only loose Deep Wounds (~5% DPS) and 1 point in War Academy/Incite (meh).

  14. #34
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    Hi all.
    I'm having BIG issues resetting jagged tear stacks on shannox.
    First of all... i don't know if my raid lockout got bugged, the boss got fixed or what, but i can ensure you that jagged tear lasts 36 seconds instead of the 30 seconds that i see on this guide, I might be able to post a screen within a week to prove that (since we are probably going to go normal on monday to clear all farming bosses before reset).
    Then we get to the real issue. I'm tanking shannox 80yd far from riplimb, i also made some calculations on character's speed so that 80yds seems to be the space that you travel in 10 seconds (a little more, actually), and that is where i put the markers to remember where is 80 yds. After shannox throws his spear, the offtank runs away (being able to kite riplimb like 5-10 yds out of the fiery spiral left by shannox' spear before the spear can land), then riplimb get slowed by a shadow priest from then till riplimb gets 40 yards away from the shadow priest. We use a rogue with poisons to slow riplimb just in case the shadow priest gets out of range.
    Now the real pain. If i don't kite shannox the spear is delivered when i have around 15 seconds before the debuff falls off, even when kiting i rarely get past 3 secs to fall off, that is like if riplimb needed 200 (two hundred!!) yards to reset the stacks WHEN SLOWED, that just seems too much.
    I browsed the internet for answers, and i could find nothing more than "OMG, SHANNOX IS SO ISY, MORE THAN NORMAL MODEZ OMG OMG!!" and i assume it might be true for somebody, but i'm currently having HUGE issues on this thing. More serious threads speak about debuff being able to be reset with "a little" kiting, without even trapping riplimb... i've been a tank since TBC and that is not "a little" kiting but the most hardcore kiting i have ever tried. It never even worked.
    Then, at the very end of my search, i found this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYjHfpHMPUw
    A
    s i stated on the youtube comment... it really does not seem to work. I tried it for like an hour and yes, shannox moves like that, but no, riplimb doesn't. It gets to shannox, gives him the spear, watches me like if i was an idiot, gets to offtank and waits for me to die.
    I'm getting really frustrated at this boss and i'm not able to find an answer that looks good, everybody seems to do it in a different way from each other but they all agree on the fact that is "easy", while it's really the first boss that seems hard on the entire normal/heroic content i've met on cataclysm since now. I must be missing something, but i don't understand what.
    Thanks for the help, i really appreciate that.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by kibuzo View Post
    Hi all.
    I'm having BIG issues resetting jagged tear stacks on shannox.
    First of all... i don't know if my raid lockout got bugged, the boss got fixed or what, but i can ensure you that jagged tear lasts 36 seconds instead of the 30 seconds that i see on this guide, I might be able to post a screen within a week to prove that (since we are probably going to go normal on monday to clear all farming bosses before reset).
    I'd like to see that screenshot.


    Quote Originally Posted by kibuzo View Post
    Then we get to the real issue. I'm tanking shannox 80yd far from riplimb, i also made some calculations on character's speed so that 80yds seems to be the space that you travel in 10 seconds (a little more, actually), and that is where i put the markers to remember where is 80 yds. After shannox throws his spear, the offtank runs away (being able to kite riplimb like 5-10 yds out of the fiery spiral left by shannox' spear before the spear can land), then riplimb get slowed by a shadow priest from then till riplimb gets 40 yards away from the shadow priest. We use a rogue with poisons to slow riplimb just in case the shadow priest gets out of range.
    Now the real pain. If i don't kite shannox the spear is delivered when i have around 15 seconds before the debuff falls off, even when kiting i rarely get past 3 secs to fall off, that is like if riplimb needed 200 (two hundred!!) yards to reset the stacks WHEN SLOWED, that just seems too much.
    ..snip..
    Then, at the very end of my search, i found this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYjHfpHMPUw
    A
    s i stated on the youtube comment... it really does not seem to work. I tried it for like an hour and yes, shannox moves like that, but no, riplimb doesn't. It gets to shannox, gives him the spear, watches me like if i was an idiot, gets to offtank and waits for me to die.
    By all rights what you're describing is the correct way to do it. I can only comment on what my own guild is doing, which you can obviously see in the video, which does use a little bit of kiting by the Shannox tank but nothing very extreme unless I fail at slowing (which happens more often than I'd like to admit). Perhaps the slowing on your Riplimb isn't quite up to snuff?

    If your Rageface handler is doing a stellar job with getting Rageface trapped you should have an extra Crystal Prison Trap lying around every now and then, you could take advantage of that to trap Riplimb and remove the Jagged Tear stacks that way. Don't count on that happening all the time, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Sounds like the guy who ran in front of the train had an even worse week than you guys did.

  16. #36
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    @kibuzo - the timing your discribing is exactly the timing we get if he is not slowed at all.
    I think your groups is just getting slows wrong. You have to keep in mind that riplimb is *immune* to slows (he gets the debuff but it doesent reduce movement speed) exept when he is running to grab the spear shannox just threw. All slows have to happen after the offtank ran away from the spear impact point and riplimp is turning to go for the spear.
    Get the slows right and this fight will be faceroll.

  17. #37
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    I'll try to double check the slows, but as a raid leader i can tell you that i already checked. We surely miss something sometimes, but there has been times when riplimb seemed to be slowed from the very start. I really hope we are missing something "there" because it would be really dramatic if we would wipe on perfect executions of the encounter.
    I know that 90% of times someone calls out for a bug when it isn't a bug, so i'd be careful before saying "ok, boss was bugged, blizzard's fault, i'll create a ticket", but i'm absolutely 100% sure that the debuff lasted 36 seconds from when it was applied for two nights (so even after resets), i might not be good at english but i definitely can read integers well. You will see a screenshot tho, i'll probably force one more heroic try on monday just to make it.
    And, last but not least, riplimb ALWAYS got to shannox after sprinting. It should mean that he took a lot of time to come to him, since his debuff grows on time, not on space, right?
    Thanks again.
    Last edited by kibuzo; 10-28-2011 at 05:12 AM.

  18. #38
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    Hi again and sorry for double posting.
    Here you have a partial proof of what i'm saying about stacks lasting 36 seconds.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r0xksfri42rwbm0u/analyze/dt/spell/?target=7&s=3110&e=3150
    S
    et filtering to None so that you can easily see when the hits occour without any softening, and uncheck boring melee hits. Fifola takes one limb rip, then eleven hits from jagged tear which occours every 3 seconds, for a total of "at least" 33 seconds of "effective" debuff uptime. I don't know how this buff works exactly but i guess it some time before first tick; resolution of 1000 ms tells us that it does not tick "immediately" but at least one second later, so 33 seconds of damaging debuff could actually result in 36 seconds of debuff uptime.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...&s=3113&e=3145 Here fifola gets 11 ticks of jagged tear with no limb rip at all!
    This is all i can show you until i get a screenshot.
    Last edited by kibuzo; 10-28-2011 at 05:54 PM.

  19. #39
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    Code:
    [00:53:07.565] Shannox casts Arcing Slash on Tubolinag
    00 [00:53:07.704] Tubolinag afflicted by Jagged Tear from Shannox
    01 [00:53:07.760] Shannox Arcing Slash Tubolinag 39632
    02 [00:53:11.130] Unknown Jagged Tear Tubolinag 2754
    03 [00:53:13.731] Unknown Jagged Tear Tubolinag 2754
    04 [00:53:17.132] Unknown Jagged Tear Tubolinag 2754
    05 [00:53:19.779] Shannox casts Arcing Slash on Tubolinag
    06 [00:53:19.846] Tubolinag afflicted by Jagged Tear (2) from Shannox
    07 [00:53:19.963] Unknown Jagged Tear Tubolinag 2754
    00 [00:53:19.964] Shannox Arcing Slash Tubolinag 44835
    01 [00:53:22.905] Unknown Jagged Tear Tubolinag 6120
    02 [00:53:26.113] Unknown Jagged Tear Tubolinag 6120
    03 [00:53:28.944] Unknown Jagged Tear Tubolinag 6120
    04 [00:53:31.797] Unknown Jagged Tear Tubolinag 6120
    05 [00:53:35.037] Unknown Jagged Tear Tubolinag 6120
    06 [00:53:38.014] Unknown Jagged Tear Tubolinag Absorb (6120)
    07 [00:53:40.771] Unknown Jagged Tear Tubolinag 6120
    08 [00:53:44.029] Unknown Jagged Tear Tubolinag 6120
    09 [00:53:46.969] Unknown Jagged Tear Tubolinag 6120
    10 [00:53:50.125] Unknown Jagged Tear Tubolinag 6120
    11 [00:53:52.636] Shannox's Jagged Tear fades from Tubolinag
    The difficulty in analysing when a spell should run out when it gets refreshed every 10 seconds is that the "tick timer" is not resetted when the spell is refreshed. However we can see when the damage increases in the quanta defined by the DoT's damage. Jagged Tear increases in increments of about 3000 damage. So let's look at this combat log excerpt. The start of the DoT is fairly obvious - it happens at [00:53:07.704]and the first tick is at [00:53:11.130].

    You said the tank has 1 second latency. This means that the time stamps are only really accurate to this degree of accuracy (it also means that your tank should go read the sticky in the Tech section about reducing his ping, personally I would consider 1000 ms latency unplayable).

    The DoT is refreshed at [00:53:19.846] when Shannox performs his second Arcing Slash. We start counting the duration from this point. The first tick of the refreshed Jagged Tear occurs at [00:53:22.905], dealing 6120 damage. The final damage tick is at [00:53:50.125] ticking 10 times over 30 seconds.

  20. #40
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    Has anyone else noticed you can force reset your stacks? no slows if you just run in a large circle kiting Shannox once Riplimp is almost brought the spear back Riplimp keeps doing his little charge back to Shannox, but because Shannox isn't where he charged too he has to to it again and again and again.

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