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Thread: Bear Suggestions...

  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Bear Suggestions...

    In repling to another person's post, I realized my issues with my Bear. So I wanted to post my issues and suggestions, and see if 1) people might also feel the same way (so I'm not crazy!) 2) people feel my suggestions are reasonable (so I'm not unreasonable!) or have thier own.

    1) I feel like the damage coming in is very spikey (something I have heard many posters have talk about).
    a) This is probably the most complicated problem for me to think of a solution, just because oh how Bear avoidance works. We don't block, we dodge or absorb, so to say, make Bears CTC capable, would be saying that Bears take 0 damage (we can't dodge everything, that's ridiculous!). But, I have heard a pretty reasonable suggestion in either changing Savage Defense's reliance on Vengeance, or changing the Vengeance mechanics in relationship to either it's decay, or not having it decay at all when a dodge occurs (though it wouldn't go up either). I'm not trying to steal ideas, so again, this particular suggestin is based on what I have read, and makes sense to me.

    2) I think more defensive (damage mitigation) cooldowns are needed.
    b) I feel in relation to the the other tanks, Bears defensive CDs and slightly lacking. They have Barkskin on a one minute CD, something standard to all tanks, but then the other two cooldowns (Survival Instincts and Frenzied Regeneration) are on three minute CDs. On a side note, Frenzied Regeneration can be amazing, and is a solid CD, but it's also heavily reliant upon another person (the Healer) to be completely effective (when glyphed...it usually is). Playing my other tanks, I have more optons, and more chances to use them. My solution would be either lowering the CD on FR to 1.5 or 2 minutes. Or, and this is my preference, give Bears a 30 second CD. Something like, Increased Dodge by 15%-30% for 10-12 seconds. Damage mitigation is a very fun part of tanking, adding more to this aspect of tanking for Bears, IMHO would be for the better. (Not to be biased, I will say that Warriors could perhaps benefit from something like this, in the same way that Bears would).


    3) I never have enough rage to always interupt (I don't know if anyone else encounters this sometimes).
    c) Skull Bash is the interupt for Bears. It costs 15 Rage and in order for it to even be on a 10 second CD like all the others tanks' interupts, it needs to be specced into. I am pretty efficient with my GCDs. I am doing something for everyone. My attacks are linked to Maul. My rage is usually empty because I am using it. Then a boss starts to cast. Now I have to wait for second or two, to build rage for Skull Bash. I just missed the interupt becasue I didn't have it built up quick enough, or just missed pressing the button when I did have build up enough. Pallys and DKs can make thier interupts free. Why not Bears? Interupting is the another aspect I personally find very fun about tanking. Add to it by allowing Bears to do it better. Give Bears a way to make thier interupt free (This point and suggestion applies to Warriors too).

    So these are my problems and suggestions.

  2. #2
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    1) I feel like the damage coming in is very spikey
    It is. We couldn't use our bear to tank H bal. He took on average 6k dps less then our warrior (across the whole fight). But the spikiness of the damage lead to several tank deaths.
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  3. #3
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    This thread is NOT beer suggestions.

    I am disappoint.

  4. #4
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    1: Correct, but it is hard to fix, because Druids (as DKs) just work very different compared to the shield tanks. The problem lies more with the shield-classes being block capped than with the bear mechanics. Of course, this was forseeable, but hey, its Blizzard...

    2: I donīt think thats an issue. Tbh, I think barkskin is an amazing CD that really is an advantage for bears over the other tanks. The other CDs are on par with the other classes CDs.

    3: I donīt see where the issue is. If you are on interrupt duty and a cast is coming up, you shoudnīt spend your last 15 rage. Simple as that. Its no different for a lot of other classes.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    2: I donīt think thats an issue. Tbh, I think barkskin is an amazing CD that really is an advantage for bears over the other tanks. The other CDs are on par with the other classes CDs.

    3: I donīt see where the issue is. If you are on interrupt duty and a cast is coming up, you shoudnīt spend your last 15 rage. Simple as that. Its no different for a lot of other classes.
    2: Barkskin is amazing, but its not an advantage over other tanks, Warriors have Shield Block, DKs have Bone Shield, and Pallys have Divine Protection. All are a minute CD an reduce damage by 20% (Shield Block for Warriors might be more or less when CTC, I'm not completely sure on that one), my original post already explains everything else so I won't repeat it, but to say Barkskin is an advantage is a bit misleading since other tanks have essentially the same CD too.

    3: I hear your point, and I have taken to throttling back when it is absolutely necesary for an interupt (like 1st boss in H:SFK for example). But again, it is different for other classes, Pallys and DKs can make thier interupt free, and Warrior interupts are slightly cheaper, something I suggested as well. Then again, maybe I just need to change my playstyle as you suggested.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kysumu View Post
    1) I feel like the damage coming in is very spikey (something I have heard many posters have talk about).
    Any 5.0 changes tanks will receive will include changes to that type of mechanic. Most likely it will include active Savage Defense uptime, but that is another topic. Vengeance has been a both very successful and very unsuccessful mechanic during the course of the expansion thus far. I foresee a bit of further tweaking during any 5.0 beta period to help out things like short term avoidance decay. I will say that just like Death Strike 5second mechanics the link of Savage Defense and Vengeance really needs to be looked at with a microscope going forward. Especially as we move into a more "active" mitigation world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kysumu View Post
    2) I think more defensive (damage mitigation) cooldowns are needed.
    This is a much deeper issue than you think it is. If you look at the defensive cooldowns across all 4 tanking specs you will find that bears are not in the absolute worst shape. With Warriors having Shield Block, Shield Wall and Last Stand as "defensive" CDs, and Enraged Regen as a reactive healing CD, they are in about as bad shape as Bears. Looking deeper you find out that DK defensive CDs all are tied to a resource system where they can not use them "on demand" nearly as easily as the rest of the classes.

    It is true that Bear CD's need a bit of work. Frenzied Regen when Glyphed is basically a weaker Vampiric Blood crossed with a weaker Last Stand on a far too long of a cooldown. Two weak abilities combined should not have such a cooldown. Yet, all major tanking CDs are 3 minutes (except for DKs) so its "ok" to do this in order to balance tank CDs. The ability either needs to be strengthened, or the CD shortened. The worst thing about this ability is that when it is glyphed and working in a heroic 5man dungeon with a "lower" healer this ability is actually worth very little in terms of survivability. Personally I believe that the glyph itself should be removed and replaced with a talent that was only viable for bears to retain the healing over time as well and then leave the CD as it is. The real solution is to completely separate the two different versions of the ability and give us both. Not unlike Warriors having an ondemand self heal as well as the Last Stand effects.

    To the other issues, I am not 100% sure we are in need of yet another avoidance/mitigation cooldown. I believe you will see your request for a 30second defensive cooldown be turned into an active mitigation cooldown tied to Savage Defense uptime and in my opinion is just not the direction we want to go in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kysumu View Post
    3) I never have enough rage to always interupt (I don't know if anyone else encounters this sometimes).
    I completely agree that 15 rage is too high a cost for an interrupt. I also believe that unless Rage is further normalized, we as bears (or warriors) need a free interrupt. I also want to point out that talenting the free interrupt as a DK is a choice, but it comes at the cost of other useful tanking talents that can not easily be ignored. The real reason that Skull Bash needs a cost is that is not only is an interrupt it is a short range closer as well as interrupt.

    I do not mind having to talent it down mostly because the choices for those points going elsewhere in the talent tree are not interesting or useful in the least. Trading off an unneeded 10% damage increase while Enraged for a 10second interrupt is worth the trade off. This is counter to the DK's options to trade off of lowering disease uptime, losing a tanking cooldown or lowering incoming runic power.

    I am an advocate of Free interrupts as this expansion has 100% shifted the responsibility of interrupting from the DPS where it had been for 10 raid tiers to the tanks. That being said, I can see where they are coming from with Skull Bash because of the duality of the ability. Furthermore if these interrupts are going to be changed to free, the way to do it is via glyphs and not via talents such as the DKs.

    ---

    I really do hope that with 5.0 we will see a return of the changes they made to parry during the early part of the Cataclysm beta period. Removing another "full avoid" statistic from the table and making it reduced damage hit would reduce overall avoidance numbers for all tank classes and give the opportunity for Bears to gain the ability to parry (still am in the dark why they can not). This change as well as the addition of Bear Parry would do wonders for making damage less spikey across ALL 4 tanking classes. It would be a fundamental change in mitigation/avoidance paradigm, but would serve the game better in the long run. It also brings with it a number of possibilities in addition or changing of cooldowns for a number of tanking classes, most notably bears and dks (arguably the spikiest of tanks).

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