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Thread: 10 Man normal Beth'tilac whooping up on us

  1. #1
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    10 Man normal Beth'tilac whooping up on us

    Not sure what we are doing wrong we have to be missing something we 1 shot shannox over and over than we get to Beth'tilac and barely get to phase 2 not sure what we are doing wrong. We are quite casual we raid 2 nights a week with 1 night on tier 11 and 1 night on tier 12 since we have a lot of folks without their helm and shoulders.Since shannox is so easy is there maybe a different boss we should be going to before Beth'tilac.Here is the logs in hope that it shows some huge flaw that we are doing http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/hq3kfho3fsxbbhgo/

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  2. #2
    You're taking a ridiculously large amount of damage from Venom Rain. Which tank is going up top with Beth'tilac?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Sounds like the guy who ran in front of the train had an even worse week than you guys did.

  3. #3
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    Re: 10 Man normal Beth'tilac whooping up on us

    Are pally tank blacklore goes up we have tried a couple attempts where all stay down and try to heal through aoe that doesn't work so well either

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  4. #4
    You can't stay down, the AoE from Beth'tilac will murder you if she can stay up there and AoE you all freely. That explains a lot of the raid damage you're taking in some pulls.

    I hate to make this open ended, but where do you feel you're having trouble? Tank death? Raid damage deaths? Not killing things fast enough? How long have you folks been working on this?

    Has your raid read up on the strategy for Beth'tilac? There are two good threads with videos going on in Tankspot that may clear up some of the details for your raiders if they're unsure of their roles. Tankspot Official thread and the Tankspot Community thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Sounds like the guy who ran in front of the train had an even worse week than you guys did.

  5. #5
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    Re: 10 Man normal Beth'tilac whooping up on us

    I think we are not killing fast enough is the issue I keep asking the raiders to watch videos not positive it is happening though We have been cleaning the floor in front of Beth for 3 weeks now which is only 3 days like 6 hours of wiping to Beth

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    On the first attempt the healer went up before the tank and was killed. The tank was also hit by a meteor and died to the fall damage. Going up out of order is pretty much a guarenteed wipe.

    On the second attempt, the healer went up before the tank and was killed and the tank died shortly after because they didn't have a healer.

    On the third attempt again the healer went up before the tank. This is evident because Venom Rain immediately preceeded them being meleed by the boss (they were first to go up again). They were battle ressed. Later in the fight they used Hand of Sacrifice on the tank and basically killed themself. Tank died shortly after because they didn't have a healer though they did die to Venom Rain which does mean they returned to the bottom before dying and other healers could have potentially delayed that death.

    On the fourth attempt it is very clear that no one went up top quickly enough. Venom Rain not only was ticking for too long, but also there are a very significant amount of Spinner attacks in that timeframe. Roughly 10 seconds after Spinner attacks start you'd expect to see Venom Rain end cause that is plenty of time for Spinners to be taunted down and tank to go up. I assume this was your attempt at not going up at all which is probably a bad idea given where your problem areas are.

    On your final attempt your issue was simply having adds up for too long into the final phase. They should be dead either before the start of phase 2 or very shortly into phase 2 (like less than 20 seconds). Not only did you have Drones still alive but it looks like you also still had Spinners that weren't killed.

    Both the healer and the tank going upstairs were hit by 3 meteors each. You shouldn't be hit by any. The healer should never go up before the tank. That mistake was made three times. The healer should never Hand of Sacrifice anyone unless they are also using Divine Shield. If I were a paladin healer I probably wouldn't even consider using it on a fight with damage like this. All of those mistakes with the team going up onto the web have to be resolved.

    Based on the raid DPS of the Shannox kill you would have enough to likely kill Beth'tilac assuming she was in about the mid 80s in percentage when coming down to phase two. Your Shannox kill was hardly clean however, even if it was a one shot, six deaths is a lot for a 10 man. You need more time working on this encounter. Five attempts probably isn't enough for you to have the kinks worked out. Your DPS looks like it is confused with it's assignments and as a result not keeping up with things. How are you assigning your DPS cause it looks like everyone is targeting everything instead of some well defined priorities? For example in my group we send one DPS on the web, two DPS dedicated to killing Spinners and Drones (and actually prioritizing Spinners first cause they die faster reducing total damage taken) and two DPS dealing with Spiderlings. Each part of the machine does its job and the machine as a whole functions. In your case it looks like no one has any real direction other than a basic priority list and they are bouncing all over the place inefficiently and things simply aren't dying as efficiently as they could.
    Last edited by Quinafoi; 09-12-2011 at 04:00 PM. Reason: corrected reason for wipe on first one
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  7. #7
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    Quinafoi is spot on. Most of your wipes are basic "learn the mechanics" stuff. Having anyone fall through the web is almost a guaranteed wipe in 10 man because you either have a Tank without a Healer, a Healer with no Tank or you lose the web DPS and then you won't be able to burn through her in Phase 2 because of the lost damage. Just have to get the rhythm of the fight down before worrying too much about making changes to your approach.

    That being said, looking specifically at your best attempt you have two DPS clocking in under 10k - one at 6.6k. That's simply not going to fly on this fight; Spinners, Spiderlings & Drones need to go down in a timely fashion and you need to get Beth'tilac down to a reasonable point before Phase 2. Decent DPS is crucial - need to shoot for at least 12k (bare minimum) but honestly until they're doing 15k+ you're going to struggle with this encounter.

    Assuming you correct the 6.6k your DPS will still face an uphill battle in Phase 2 - you will want to have her down to at least 80% for P2, more likely ~75% to have a real chance to get her down. Our strategy is to send 2 DPS up on the web for the first cycle, then 1 DPS for cycles two and three. The reason is the first cycle is easily controlled down below, healers have plenty of mana, etc. The extra DPS up top ensures she comes down at a good spot (for us she's below 70% now which makes P2 cakey).

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    Re: 10 Man normal Beth'tilac whooping up on us

    Thank you all for taking the time to look into this. We are going back in tomorrow we will see what happens

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  9. #9
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    In going up make sure the tank and healer communicate - I can't stress this enough. It made a huge difference when the tank would ask me "you got your web" and when I respond "yes" he'd say "going up". Something as simple and stupid as that, made a huge difference. Also, your healer can heal on the way up the web, don't underestimate the importance of self healing on the way up. Also, when they get to the top, there are times the healer is facing away from Beth, make sure they orient themselves so they can move correctly. Also, on the second and third time up it's entirely possible to come up on an area that's a meteor hole, they have a couple seconds to move, but if the web area they come up on is bright orange and all glowey "MOVE OFF IT". Lastly, depending on the web spread, the tank and healer can come up out of range, keep aware.

    Q also gave me some good advice, each time the upstairs healer jumps down, take advantage of a mana regen ability - Potion of Concentration, Divine Hymn., Hymn of Hope etc. Use one each time.

    These are just stupid little things to keep in mind and watch out for and they made a huge difference for me. The first night we tried her all I did was mess up just like you all were doing; I don't think I missed a meteor hole. Now, I go up on both my pally and my disc priest and it's cake.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texan81 View Post
    Are pally tank blacklore goes up we have tried a couple attempts where all stay down and try to heal through aoe that doesn't work so well either

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    Good man / guild trying something new, not many are willing to give that tactic a try.

    As for your problem it looks to be an add issue just as you phase shift, having any little spiders up is always bad not so much for the healing as she starts with 100% anyways using this tactic but early stacks of frenzy is just bad, in the last log she ate 6 which is really really bad.

    You are also taking a lot of damage from the spinners while they are hanging on their webs, priority should be getting them off the webs where after they do little to no damage, have the off tank taunt them down as soon as possible.

    I think the correct priority is spiderlings > drones > spinners, but A: get spinners down from webs, B: kill spinners off if too many of them are active, and C: do not leave a single spiderling alive for when beth comes down.

    Doing the no going up top tactic you should have more then enough dps ( people down stairs plus your guilds dps numbers ) to kill everything off just make sure people have some sort of set tasks other wise some adds wont die when they need to.



    Quote Originally Posted by outbackjack View Post
    You can't stay down, the AoE from Beth'tilac will murder you if she can stay up there and AoE you all freely. That explains a lot of the raid damage you're taking in some pulls.
    Wrong the aoe is not murder if healers are decent from the looks of it for P1 at least they don't seam to have an issue and would have less if they took care of the spinners.

    I know my group is kind of overpowered now but even back in 359 gear we did the no going up top tactic with ease and tonight tried two healing it, it was hella hard but not impossible.
    Last edited by CoolNitro; 09-14-2011 at 04:25 PM.

  11. #11
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    Spinners continue to shoot fire bolt thingies after they've been taunted to the ground. That means their damage will not go considerably down from taunting them down alone. Taunting them down does allow for your melee dps and tank to deal damage to them, or cleave them for optimal DPS.

    However, if healers are having trouble keeping up with the damage, have your non-AoE DPS (the ones in charge of killing spiderlings, typically two people) prioritize spinners over Drones, as their fire bolt thingies do moderate damage that can quickly pile up and overwhelm your healers.

    The exception is the last pack of spiderlings before Beth goes down, that must be AoE'd as soon as possible to prevent Beth from healing.

    If you're having trouble with DPS, do NOT use the "everyone stays down" tactic. It won't work; P2 will last for too long and your healers won't be able to keep up.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esarael View Post
    Spinners continue to shoot fire bolt thingies after they've been taunted to the ground. That means their damage will not go considerably down from taunting them down alone. Taunting them down does allow for your melee dps and tank to deal damage to them, or cleave them for optimal DPS.

    If you're having trouble with DPS, do NOT use the "everyone stays down" tactic. It won't work; P2 will last for too long and your healers won't be able to keep up.
    I thought they had their damage reduced after taunted down hmm wow can't believe I didn't know that :P.

    His raids dps is more then enough based on the shannox kill actually I have a log from a month ago from my own guild with dps doing slightly worse 12k to 18k more lower then higher vs his 14k to 19k more higher.

    Not that you are wrong though extra dps can end the fight quicker but if healers can keep up it can be turned from a dps race to a hps race.

  13. #13
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    Yes it is viable to send up no one, however damage taken is actually significantly harder to heal in that regard. Sending people up doesn't actually result in you taking much less damage than you take from Venom Rain, however what it does do is convert the bulk of the damage from raid damage into tank damage. This shift in where the damage is focused generally results in it actually being easier to heal because of the effectiveness of your individual healers at either tank or raid healing. The reason you generally send people up is two fold. The first being any damage dealt to the boss in phase one naturally shortens phase two. The second being shifting damage that would be raid damage into heavier tank damage which can mitigate it better as well as reduce the number of targets which require healing. This is like asking yourself the question of is it easier to heal one target taking 30k damage per second or three separate targets taking 10k damage per second? The numbers aren't perfectly balanced. Because of tanking cooldowns, mitigation, and avoidance going up will always result in less damage. However if your raid has an easier time healing multiple people for a moderate amount versus healing a single person for a large amount such an alternative become viable. I wouldn't personally recommend this tactic for a group just learning the encounter as even if they reach phase two cleanly they simply may not have what it takes to kill the boss from full health, however it is viable and for some groups it works.

    Spinners have two attacks, their ranged attack continues to be used on random targets even after they are taunted down (think about the Spinners you fought in the trash before Beth'tilac, even though they are grounded they still use their ranged attack), however the frequency drops slightly as they could also execute a melee attack and I do not believe both actions can be executed simultaneously. So taunting them down does reduce the damage they deal and also allow your melee DPS to kill them, particularly close to the Drone such that cleaves and incidental AoE hits other targets. Taunting them down however only reduces their damage slightly. Since they continue to use their ranged attack on random targets it can still be stressful for healers to deal with the random spikes on unpredictable targets. This is why I generally advise that a DPS team be assigned to Spinners and Drones and actually focus down the Spinners first, to decrease their numbers faster (due to lower health pools) and make healing significantly easier. They should still be killed at the Drone so that splash damage hits the Drone while they are being killed.

    While it is true that the DPS priorities should be Spiderlings > Drones > Spinners from a functional role in the encounter (highest priority being the units which have the largest impact on the encounter as a whole). From a control standpoint I would actually reorder it Spiderlings > Spinners > Drones. Dealing with Spiderlings efficiently is basically a requirement no matter what. But a Drone isn't overly threatening itself since it is primarily just dealing damage to the tank. A Drone simply needs to die "fast enough". If you can kill your Spinners and then switch to the Drone and still kill it before it would go up on top of the web that is still "fast enough" while you also reduced the damage your raid was taking by reducing the number of damage dealing mobs faster.

    Really the trick for a new group learning the encounter is to discover the proper balance and master each of your roles. There isn't any secret technique to it. How do you pull the boss? How many people should you send up each time and which people? Where do you position or move the Drone? How do you deal with Spiderlings efficiently and who do you assign to doing it? When do you use raid cooldowns and in what order? How do you round up Spinners and kill them effectively and who do you assign to doing it? How do you make sure you have enough damage being dealt to the Drone that it dies before running out of energy? How do you split up healers and their roles and do healers ever do anything other than healing? How do you decide which tank to assign to which role? These are all questions you have to come up with answers to.
    Last edited by Quinafoi; 09-14-2011 at 10:18 PM.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    How do you pull the boss?
    Those are very useful comments, Quinafoi. On the above question, is there any interesting answer? I understand Bane of Havoc would be an awesome opening move if you happen to have a destruction warlock. But what other options are? I just run in and judge which seems a complete waste.
    Last edited by theodisius; 09-17-2011 at 03:40 AM.

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    The only interesting answer beside Bane of Havoc I would consider is Curse of Elements, however the thought process behind why they would be chosen is because of their duration (they effect the boss for the entire duration of phase one).

    Long term debuffs are typically the ones you would decide upon as they would have the largest effect. For example with a Warlock in the group and a different caster (other than the Warlock) assigned to going up on the web to DPS the boss you might consider Curse of Elements instead. If the Warlock is Destruction they would still favor Bane of Havoc on the pull but may want to take a web up on the first set of Spinners (after the tank, healer, and DPS assigned to going up have all gotten theirs) to apply a Curse of Elements as well before immediately returning to the bottom.

    Most classes don't have a long term debuff. Faerie Fire would be another example however since it would require three applications it could never be done just on the pull alone and if the tank were a Warrior or Druid it wouldn't be of much benefit anyway. If you had a Restoration Druid assigned to being up top they could easily apply it on their first time going up, or like the example with a Warlock you could have a Druid not assigned to going up go up in the first set of Spinners simply to apply the debuff and return to the bottom immediately after doing so (again after the people who are assigned to go up do so as you want all the required people up first). For example in my normal raid configuration I have a Rogue as DPS going upstairs and I (a Restoration Druid) am one of the two healers downstairs. I could opt to go up on the first wave to apply Faerie Fire to the boss to help the Rogue's DPS and then return to the bottom, however I'm also sending up a Protection Warrior as the tank so doing that wouldn't matter but if I were sending up a Protection Paladin or a Blood Death Knight it might be something worth considering.

    Since a Warlock is one of the few examples where they can apply a long term (5 minute debuff) on the pull and these debuffs don't require stacking they are typically the one doing the pull. If a Warlock isn't available, or the debuff doesn't help until the second phase (i.e. Curse of Elements wouldn't help if you're sending a Protection Warrior and a Rogue up onto the web) then you may opt to simply have a class with a large damage non-instant cast such as a Hunter pull with a large burst followed by an instant (if timed well other ranged classes can also hit an instant while the first cast is traveling) simply to apply as much damage at the pull as possible.
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  16. #16
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    A little bit of my thought process when applied to the original posters raid configuration in answering those questions I posed using the raid setup they had on their final attempt. These aren't necessarily the answers they should use, but they are the answers I myself would generally come to before experimentation and adaptation. This is my thought process as a raid leader if I were to apply my process to your raid.

    This is not "THE" solution, it is "A" solution.

    How many people should you send up each time and which people?
    I would send the Protection Warrior, Holy Paladin, and the Enhancement Shaman. Shield Block also can reduce the Fire Damage through talents. The Resistence Aura can be provided by the Holy Paladin. Its generally preferable to have a melee DPS go up rather than a ranged DPS since ranged may have an easier time below, additionally the non-tanking Warrior remaining below can assist with rounding up of Spinners. The Protection Warrior can also use his or her greater mobility on the third Smoldering Devastation to make sure the boss is pulled well away from any remaining Spiderlings, if the boss starts moving immediately it will generally not eat them even if it lands practically on top of them. Ideally they should be dead before the boss lands, but it's helpful to have contingencies. Your goal is to reach the mid 80s for when the boss starts phase two. If you can accomplish this only sending the DPS up the first two times, you may opt to having them stay below the last time in order to make sure all adds are cleaned up and you enter phase two cleanly.

    Where do you position or move the Drone?
    The Drone should be kept relatively stationary in a position off center in the direction it spawns from pointed away from the raid. A Protection Warrior provides greater mobility than a Protection Paladin however because mobility isn't necessary the Protection Paladin can be used below. The reason why the Drone should be kept stationary is because of the type of damage being dealt to the Spiderlings. Since you are using Hunter (likely Survival) and a Balance Druid on Spiderlings traps and Wild Mushrooms require accurate positioning before they move through it. If the Drone is moving, it is significantly harder to accurately position traps and Wild Mushrooms because you can not predict the path of the Spiderlings.

    How do you deal with Spiderlings efficiently and who do you assign to doing it?
    Since you have a Balance Druid they will largely deal with Spiderlings alone since a single detonation of three Wild Mushrooms could easily do over 75% of their health. You may likely have a hunter assisting with Spiderlings, providing some AoE and some traps however the Balance Druid will likely do the bulk of the damage so the Hunter may be spending some of their time dealing damage to other mobs. Additionally/Alternatively, since you have a Restoration Druid if they are comfortable using Wild Mushrooms as well they can help during this phase (the strongest AoE in the game is still quite strong even as Restoration).

    When do you use raid cooldowns and in what order?
    Mana Tide Totem for example would be used on the first or second Smoldering Devastation when all of your healers are on the ground again so that it is available again early to mid way through phase two. Additionally if you were to ever use a Potion of Concentration for more mana than a Mythical Mana Potion the ideal time is right at a Smoldering Devastation because AoE damage should be minimal (Spinners should be dead and next wave not spawned yet, Venom Rain won't start for a few seconds, only the Drone tank is taking much damage). The second phase will typically be around three minutes long for a group getting their first kill, any longer typically results in a wipe due to the ever growing damage. Since you expect the final phase to be about three minutes long, you can use a survivability cooldown on the Venom Rain after the first two Smoldering Devastations and the ability will come off cooldown again during phase two. Your raid cooldowns are: two Rallying Cry, one Spirit Link, two Tranquility, one Tree of Life, one Divine Guardian, one Heroism/Bloodlust (due to debuff), and one Aura Mastery. Off spec Tranquility would likely be the first cooldown used since you do not want DPS not dealing damage for long. Rallying Cry amplifies the effectiveness of Spirit Link (since people with larger health pools share a portion of that difference with those with smaller health pools). Heroism/Bloodlust is effectively a survivability cooldown in this context because it increases healing throughput. Throughput increases are less valuable direct mitigation. So in general you would favor saving a cooldown like Divine Guardian for last when damage is highest and favor using either healing cooldowns or throughput cooldowns earlier (another reason offspec Tranquility would likely be first). You would probably end up with something like offspec Tranquility at around 60%, Tree of Life at around 50%, Heroisim/Bloodlust at around 40%, Restoration Druid's Tranquility, Rallying Cry one, Rallying Cry two with Spirit Link, Aura Mastery (it does work, it doesn't work, every week people say something different), and Divine Guardian. Those percentages are generic, when the cooldowns are actually needed will be a lot more volatile and someone should be assigned to calling it out, ideally a healer since they are monitoring the raid status closely.

    How do you round up Spinners and kill them effectively and who do you assign to doing it?
    I'd personally assign the DPS Warrior and second Hunter to Spinners and the Drone. They both can help with taunting them down and if brought close enough to the Protection Paladin tanking the Drone can be easily multi-taunted with Righteous Defense to allow for easy round up. Kill Spinners first with cleave and incidental AoE damage on the Drone, once Spinners are cleaned up you can focus down the Drone. If a Drone is close to death you can opt to finish it off before cleaning up the Spinners (your priority is to reduce their numbers efficiently, so lower health is higher priority).

    How do you make sure you have enough damage being dealt to the Drone that it dies before running out of energy?
    Incidental AoE and damage dealers assigned to Spinners focus fire it once Spinners are dead. The Restoration Druid or Balance Druid could apply Faerie Fire to the Drone since it will be alive longer in order to buff the damage of the DPS Warrior and Hunter. Both Restoration Druid and Balance Druid could apply Thorns to the Protection Paladin periodically. Hunter pets can generally be left on the Drone as well since it will be alive longer.

    How do you split up healers and their roles and do healers ever do anything other than healing?
    Like I mentioned above, a Restoration Druid for example could assist with killing Spiderlings by using their own Wild Mushrooms, or applying Faerie Fire to a Drone, or Thorns on the tank.

    How do you decide which tank to assign to which role?
    Since mobility isn't necessary on the ground given who you are likely to assign to Spiderlings, you can send the Protection Warrior up while leaving the Protection Paladin below. The Warrior above would apply Sunder Armor to the boss thus providing a DPS buff to any physical DPS you send up. The Warrior can used their better mobility as a contingency to move the boss away from any remaining Spiderlings when entering phase two. The Paladin can use Righteous Defense to taunt multiple Spinners off of DPS or Healers once they are grounded by a DPS that taunted them in order to round up the Spinners.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  17. #17
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    Beth died tonight I know it was nerfed but it still is a good night now that it is dead Thanks to everyone for the help and advice we have alot of work to do to get cleaner kills but it is possible now which is a good thing http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/nev0tn0f4xwprux1/

  18. #18
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    Gratz

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