Heroic Strike STILL too important (Protection).

[swelt]

When the 4.3 PTR comes around, we should mount a campaign to get revenge some love. It should not go under the title 'heroic strike too important'.

Some ideas:
- Glyph of Revenge works like the Wrath version (your next HS is free). This makes revenge really great as the 'low rage' tool, and makes it still useful in regular fights
- Glyph of Revenge works like the Wrath shield slam glyph (hit revenge increases your block for the next X seconds - though probably block value rather than block chance)
- Tengensteins imp revenge idea would be good, but maybe imba in pvp?
- What if Revenge had a higher chance to proc Sword and Board than Devastate did?

[klausi]

- What if Revenge had a higher chance to proc Sword and Board than Devastate did?

That's something i'd like. With a 50-100% chance it would not only be a cheap gcd but also decrease the cost of your next global (you most certainly want to hit) to zero. Add 10-15% damage on top of that and we're back in place for the dps races with all other three classes. Or let it "hit" all the time (no block/dodge/parry, compareable to DK's Runestrike).

[Tengenstein]

I can't see the sword and Board Thing working all that well, its not really much of a buff, what would be a nice buff would be if the 15% crit SnB gives to devastate also affected revenge as well, at that point once you get above 15k AP witha 391 weapon Rev is better than Dev, and keeps scalin better, for each tier (13ilvls) of weapon damage increase you need another 2k AP for Dev to catch up to Rev.


As to my suggestion being OP in PVP, PVP ain't balanced about 1v1. so nyah! :P

[Kerchunk]

I've read the entire thread and I'm still not sure why I'm supposed to be upset that HS accounts for a significant portion of my damage. As long as I don't have to use it every swing, who cares? Doesn't make the class less fun to play.

[swelt]

As to my suggestion being OP in PVP, PVP ain't balanced about 1v1. so nyah! :P

It's not 1v1 that's the problem, it's prot flag carriers in rated battlegrounds. e.g. Prot FC getting beat on by melee, revenge is proc'd, they charge a nearby healer and hit them with a 'double strength revenge' with vengeance already stacked... that kind of thing. Anyway, I just think it's worth remembering that *any* change that directly buffs damage is one that will have to be balanced in pvp. PVP is the reason that shield slam doesn't hit all that hard.

[Tengenstein]

Oh no I get that, I just want to use Blizz's twisted logic for my own benefit. TBH how are we gonna buff Revenge's damage without buffing our PVP burst? you could make so the double strength only works in PVE, much like CS is only half strength against Player characters make Revenge Half strength too?

[Kavaren]

For us yeah, but for blizzard i'd consider it the other way around They just don't care about fixing this expansions models anymore. Rev's been a lame duck for the past 9 months, and had exactly the same problem in 3.2

I couldn't agree more and I remember that all during Wrath, which is why I'd like to try to get it into this patch.

[Tengenstein]

What if Revenge refreshed and spread rend?

[Airowird]

The problem with that would be that it's not an AoE attack (although it could be.... so many options!)

[Rystrave]

Improved Revenge its two targets, which is why I use it when tanking mobs with cleave. But other than that it pretty much sucks for single target.

I wish HS wasn't so rage dependent.

[Tengenstein]

The thing is Thunderstruck is better for single target, and pretty damn good for AoE too. WTB Prime GLyph of Rend, or Heroic Strike

[klausi]

The thing is Thunderstruck is better for single target

I'm not quite convinced with that, a SS-rev/dev-..-SS rotation gives us more S&B proccs (even on the third global it's a 20 rage saving) thus we can use HS more excessive. Even while tanking heroic mode bosses outside of shieldblock (every block -> +15 rage via talent) and berserker rage i'm not nearly rage capped especially during Inner Rage.

Thunderstruck adds for me about 100 dps on rend/thunderclap and another ~ 90 dps for using shockwave on cooldown.

Just to make this clear, even those roughly 200 dps only equal to less then 12.000 damage dealt per minute. That's what one (connected, regular hit) heroic strike is capable of and it's worth 30 rage. Hitting revenge three times a minute instead of dev (and with all debuffs/talents dev is only 5% ahead with a 391 ilvl weapon) already grants you that amount of rage.

And from a more practical point of view, let's be honest: it's way easier to just smash rev/dev until SS lits up again and don't count until a third global without a S&B procc occurs, weaving in a shockwave/conc blow/etc before is a t/dps loss mathmatical.

[Tengenstein]

I couldn't agree more that fish fish truck is our easiest and most rage efficient rotation. However my findings with simcraft don't concur with your calculations. The following where all done with a 378 weapon at particularily low rage income to ensure revenge's rage savings are at an advantage.

Rend denotes rend if its not present TC if its safeclippable, Fish denotes fishing for SnB procs with Revenge(if IR is talented taking priority) and devastate if SS has >1.5secs left on its CD, Truck denotes using what ever abilites are available to produce the highests DPS.

SS>rend>fish>truck with Thunderstruck - 15570.9dps
SS>rend>fish>truck with Imp.Rev - 15378.1 dps
SS>fish>truck with Thunderstruck - 15457.7dps
SS>fish>truck with imp.Rev - 15297.5dps

However, despite it being a DPS loss, I still take Imp.Rev

[Ghladum]

Hey Zellviren... I was just looking at your logs.

I went to compare one of your actual Staghelm 10 Normal kills with one of my own to compare ability usage, etc.

Here's yours: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/79z5c...?s=6032&e=6452
15.8k eDPS

Here's mine: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i...?s=7123&e=7564
17.3k eDPS

One thing I note is that you do not use Rend for this fight, or keep it up with Thunderstruck TClaps. Especially with Akos providing the Mangle for 33% Bleed increases, you should really try out a spec that will enable you to keep good uptime. You can see from my parse that over our 7:20 fight, it provided me with over half a million extra damage (530,000 dmg). That works out to just over 7% of my DPS with 90% uptime on the ticks. Sometimes on Kitty phases when I'm working on the Cat Spirit adds, it does fall off, but for most encounters you should aim for as high uptime as possible on Rend, it really is greatness! I have a Power Auras Classic string that puts up a nice Rend symbol if my target does not have Rend, and then another string that will pop up a bouncing Rend icon if Rend is within 7 seconds of falling off. This makes it a lot easier to keep great uptime. If you'd like I can include that string for you.

Also in your Staghelm parse, your Devastate is your #1 dmg ability, which disagrees a bit with your 30% dmg from Heroic Strike in your 10 Heroic Shannox parse... I'm not sure why you vary so wildly with your HS dmg contribution, but it may be that you're heavily distracted on Shannox with movements/cooldown awareness that you're not making good use of your GCD abilities.

That being said, I completely get what you're saying about HS being too large of our arsenal. A great example of where this is bad is on fights like Ragnaros where the tanks are switching. When we're not taking hits, our rage suffers greatly and we lose 20% of our damage right off the bat because we cannot maintain a HS-rich rotation. Other tanks seem to be able to mostly keep their tanking rotations going strong, even for the most part Druid bears.

However this might not be such a huge problem! One way that I believe Blizzard was trying to offset this with was Vigilance providing you with Vigilance from 20% of the other tank's damage. I'm not entirely sure about whether or not 20% of the other tank's damage providing you with Vengeance is equivalent directly to losing ~20% of our overall (fully-Vengeanced) damage from cutting out all the HS spam, but it IS something. My feeling is that it is does provide at least some help when not tanking and mostly removes the penalty from us relying on rage for the HS spam. (In other words, just like no other class has such a Rage requirement to maintain our "bonus" Heroic Strike spam to fulfill our class-designated DPS/threat expectation, it's also true that no other class has a mechanism to boost our non-tanking DPS like Vigilance. This is obviously a counterbalance to our HS spam tanking usage.)

I think it would be extremely interested if Vigilance worked instead of providing Vengeance, instead it reset the cooldown on Heroic Strike as well as Taunt (although being the tank with infinite Taunts sometimes feels gimmicky). So we'd lose the Vengeance bonus but be able to more or less maintain our normal tanking ability usage spread even when not tanking... and so it wouldn't feel so weirdly different, where on the one hand, when tanking we spam HS and on the other hand when we're not we never use HS because it runs us dry on the very first use.

Anyhow, looking at your full raid log (including trash packs, buffing, etc) I don't see you casting Vigilance on anyone... do you not have this talent point? I think it's great for a lot of content, including Beth'tilac, Rhyolith, Alysrazor, Baleroc (although not for me personally, since I'm usually the "main" tank for that encounter with the Druid soaking/dodging the Decimation Blades) and especially Ragnaros!

[klausi]

Also in your Staghelm parse, your Devastate is your #1 dmg ability, which disagrees a bit with your 30% dmg from Heroic Strike in your 10 Heroic Shannox parse... I'm not sure why you vary so wildly with your HS dmg contribution, but it may be that you're heavily distracted on Shannox with movements/cooldown awareness that you're not making good use of your GCD abilities.

He's using cleave Add both numbers and you get 28% of his total damage done. Looking at both of your logs you should time your shockwaves to hit both Staghelm and his kitty-friends. And if talented for revenge use that in this situation while shockwave is on cooldown.

That being said, I completely get what you're saying about HS being too large of our arsenal. A great example of where this is bad is on fights like Ragnaros where the tanks are switching. When we're not taking hits, our rage suffers greatly and we lose 20% of our damage right off the bat because we cannot maintain a HS-rich rotation. Other tanks seem to be able to mostly keep their tanking rotations going strong, even for the most part Druid bears. However this might not be such a huge problem!

Actually it's a really big problem. All tanks basically got two sources of their damage dealt, one being their specific resource and one being vengeance. Helping us on the vengeance part isn't enough to counter for the damage lost from not being able to use heroic strikes at all. If you're running without a high damage set (high exp/hit) you'll likely not even being able to sustain your regular "rotation" over a longer time period. And that's with 50% more rage generated from attacking others while offtanking via Sentinel. Druids are in a similar boat with Maul making up for ~ 20% of their damage dealt, but they have the option to swap to kitty and either unleash some mediocre dots or increase their white hits (also about 20% of their total damage dealt) by 80% for over 40 seconds. Somebody might argue that tank-damage isn't that important but especially on 10 man it actually makes a big difference, easily adding another 0.5 dps to your roster.

[Tengenstein]

Or more, I'm approching 16K on majordomo, most of my DPS are not quite that close to hitting 32k.

[Zellviren]

I wasn't going to get into this thread again, but Ghladum's excellent post has convinced me otherwise.

One thing I note is that you do not use Rend for this fight, or keep it up with Thunderstruck TClaps. Especially with Akos providing the Mangle for 33% Bleed increases, you should really try out a spec that will enable you to keep good uptime.

I'm invariably not packing Thunderstruck for the Staghelm encounter, instead concentrating on a more single-target orientated spec. So while I could refresh Rend manually, I don't like the idea of wasting a GCD on it when I don't have to and have no chance of lighting up Sword and Board.

Of course, I wouldn't use a Staghelm parse in general because I never do so well on that encounter. Essentially, I spend half my time calling out jumps or coordinating Burning Orbs (which our "handlers" are uncommonly poor at) which takes away attention from my rotation. I should do better, though, and I appreciate the advice.

Also in your Staghelm parse, your Devastate is your #1 dmg ability, which disagrees a bit with your 30% dmg from Heroic Strike in your 10 Heroic Shannox parse...

I'm not 100% sure, but if you add my cleaves you'll probably get to around 30% of my damage at a guess.

A great example of where this is bad is on fights like Ragnaros where the tanks are switching. When we're not taking hits, our rage suffers greatly and we lose 20% of our damage right off the bat because we cannot maintain a HS-rich rotation.

I'm SO glad people finally see what I'm getting at and why Heroic Strike being so strong is a problem. It's not a rotational ability and, in fact, warriors currently only have two of those due to Revenge being so weak on single targets. When you toss in tank swap encounters, or any fight where you're not being beaten on for very long, warrior DPS plummets because you can't keep up with your best attack.

I think it would be extremely interested if Vigilance worked instead of providing Vengeance, instead it reset the cooldown on Heroic Strike as well as Taunt (although being the tank with infinite Taunts sometimes feels gimmicky).

It would have to have some kind of ICD but, also, wouldn't solve the problem of minimal rage. If you're suggesting a free Heroic Strike well... A significant number of damage adjustments would have to be made to stop it from being overpowered, but it would ALSO throw us further back into the RSD-inducing spammage we were promised the end of (but got anyway, thanks to Inner Rage).

Anyhow, looking at your full raid log (including trash packs, buffing, etc) I don't see you casting Vigilance on anyone... do you not have this talent point?

I don't usually take it. The AP contribution is horribly weak and the taunt-refresh is not something I find myself ever needing. I'll likely take it for heroic Beth'tilac, but it's not a strong talent otherwise.

[Airowird]

You should try and use Thunder Clap to keep up Rend (through BnT), which actually comes before SnB fishing abilities.
Especially with a Bleed debuff, you should see way more DPS out of it.

[Tengenstein]

You should try and use Thunder Clap to keep up Rend (through BnT), which actually comes before SnB fishing abilities.
Especially with a Bleed debuff, you should see way more DPS out of it.

Unless your SS is backed up by a 2pc bonus.

[Akolon]

I absolutley don´t get why there are so many voices here talking about Rev could/should replacing HS.

Since HS is not GCD based it does not compete with any other ability, so rage given, you can use it simultaneosly to every second (or during IR to every) GCD ability. That its damage contribution is very high under these circumstances is not a mystery.

Secondly HS is a rage burner. Low damage for high rage. Revenge is a rage saver with good damage for the low amount of rage it costs. So...how could Revenge *ever* be a replacement for HS?