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Thread: Blood Tanking with DW after threat boost

  1. #21
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    Hated by a Canadian? Canadian's don't hate.

  2. #22
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    They do if silly people do silly things. Are you being silly?

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  3. #23
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    No, just depends on my mood. Perhaps I was too general. One or two pieces, and I can understand weapons, is one thing, but when someone comes in in all pvp gear and is challenging the tank for dps - it becomes a waste of time.

  4. #24
    I would seriously hate you if you are like this. For dps dks, one of the better alternatives is the pvp weapons. The cleavers are boe drops in fl and no offense, I'm not dropping 20k + for those axes. I'll pvp to get those weapons instead.

    Seeing frost dw is the best dps for dks ATM, you might want to second guess your opinion about dps using pvp items. Not all of us are doing it for sheer laziness. (and don't give me that "go farm bwl" crap either. That's not an option for some)
    I'll agree here. I really wish people would get over the "omg pvp item" crap. Given the extremely high item level of easily obtainable PvP gear right now, there's no reason whatsoever to be complaining about some guy in ZA/ZG sporting 371 PvP items.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    I'll agree here. I really wish people would get over the "omg pvp item" crap. Given the extremely high item level of easily obtainable PvP gear right now, there's no reason whatsoever to be complaining about some guy in ZA/ZG sporting 371 PvP items.
    Crap is the proper term for it. Same thing with DK's trying to tank DW. And it's the same opinon I have with with people in PvE going to BG's or Arena's. I don't discriminate in the opinion.

  6. #26
    You're just being stubborn if you complain about a guy in ZA/ZG wearing 371 items simply because they're not "PvE" items in your view.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    No, just depends on my mood. Perhaps I was too general. One or two pieces, and I can understand weapons, is one thing, but when someone comes in in all pvp gear and is challenging the tank for dps - it becomes a waste of time.
    If your tank is fighting a PvPer on DPS, he needs to stop slacking!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    You're just being stubborn if you complain about a guy in ZA/ZG wearing 371 items simply because they're not "PvE" items in your view.
    I can understand 371 gear in certain slots (mostly head/shoulders), but I will seriously let you die (or vote kick you before last boss) if you don't even bother to reforge the resilience off of it. If you prefer your resi enchanted PvP gear for heroics, that's all fine and dandy for you, but you're making my job harder, thus I prefer not grouping with you.

    On DW tanking:
    2H do more DPS, stats really shouldn't be the issue. Is it possible? Sure. Is it optimal? Not really. I always liked the WotLK Frost DW tanking, but I see no reason to purposely hold back others in this game just for my own enjoyment. That's called being a douchebag.
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  8. #28
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    Yes, I'm stubborn; but have just been driven too crazy in heroics with pvp'rs trying to tank, or heal or dps. Can some do it, sure but then again someone has to win the Lotto too and the odds are about the same. The best answer is for all pvp ilvl to be considered 0 for pve dungeon minimums.

    The whole DK DW tanking thing will get more prevalent in 4.3 when DS gives you a heal even if it misses. So you'll have increased threat (which we have now) and there will be no reason to have to have hit. The DW DK tanks will be out in force.

    Can you even reforge resilience? I didn't think you could.
    Last edited by Theotherone; 10-07-2011 at 07:53 AM.

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  10. #30
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    From a DK tank's perspective...........

    Sorry. I agree with Theotherone.
    Frankly, it doesn't matter if you're using a pve or pvp weapon. DW BLOOD TANKING IS A BAD IDEA.

    Honestly, what do you think you are really truly gaining? What competitive advantage do you think you have really gained by doing this?

    Even if you take Nerves of Cold Steel, you are only gaining 3% hit. When you go from a two-hander to dual-wield, you are still going to have to overcome the loss of hit from using one-handers. So, instead of gearing and trying to improve survivability, you're now very very likely going to have to reforge for hit and expertise to overcome the intentional threat handicap that you have placed on yourself.

    Exact numbers? I run as a dw frost dps and if I remember correctly, at 8% hit, a DK is still going to miss with that offhand about 15-20% of the time. Frost DK overcomes this to some degree by two things: icy talons and running in unholy prez. Both of those give the DK such a significant haste buff that we're able to overcome/compensate for the loss of damage by hit. If this doesn't make sense to you, I'll put if this way..... if I swing and miss 20% of the time, I will do more damage to you if I swing 150 times vice 100 times. With 150 swings, I will land 120 hits on you. If I swing 100, I will land 80. That is 50%, or 40, more hits. If each hit is 100 damage, that means the 150 swing person does 12,000 damage, vice the 8,000 of the second. Win for the first one because they were able to effectively overcome their low hit percentage with more frequent (i.e. haste) hits.

    Now, for a blood DK.... they don't receive either haste buff. They can't get Icy Talons, and they gain no threat buff without being in blood presence. They are effectively the 100 swing player. They will land maybe 80 hits. You will eventually lose out on threat generation compared to the person doing 50% more damage. Nevermind that, as a dw, you'll be doing significantly less as now your deathstrikes and heart strikes will only be striking with your mainhand.

    The only way for you to compensate for this is to stack haste or hit and expertise. You are now no longer able to concentrate on survival stats. Oh sure, you will get more bloodworms..... assuming they survive long enough to give you the heal. But you are doing this at a direct loss to your survivability. You are taking away from one of two things a tank really needs to ...... sorry, check that.... you're intentionally gimping BOTH things a tank needs to do.... threat (which is always a function of damage done to the target).... and survival.

    Even with a 500% threat buff, what have you really gained? What are the stat gains from running with two one-handers? Last time I checked, the stat gain from using one-handers is less than a single comparable two-hander. So, you have no argument that it gives you a stat boost. Runeforging? A mix and match? I could gain maybe a 2% parry bonus and a 1% armor buff from another. Please. Give me a truly valid and logical argument for how this is a threat or survival advantage for the DK.

    I'm going to put this in bold print.... just to make myself super-special clear.....

    You are sacrificing performance for aesthetics. You are intentionally playing against the strengths of the spec in order to look a particular way. You are intentionally sacrificing your ability to perform well in your role in the group for the sake of appearance and "looking cool".

    Can you do this? Yes. You are well within your right to do so. You are totally free to do what you want. I totally get that you want to be the emo-undead Drizzt Do'Urden. Roger that. Just don't be surprised when healers don't want to heal for you and other players suddenly don't want to run dungeons or raids with you. You did it to yourself when you said to them, by your decision to run as a dw blood tank in 4.2, that you don't care what impact you have on others, so long as you "look cool".

    As for the pve vs pvp weapon, that's really a small issue. Yes. I'd prefer a pve weapon. A pvp weapon is not make or break for probably 80-90% of content. Maybe it would be for heroic Firelands. I frankly don't know. But arguing pve vs pvp weapon when a person clearly doesn't understand the fundamental functions of threat and survivability..... lol.....
    No one tanks in a void.........

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    The whole DK DW tanking thing will get more prevalent in 4.3 when DS gives you a heal even if it misses. So you'll have increased threat (which we have now) and there will be no reason to have to have hit. The DW DK tanks will be out in force.

    Can you even reforge resilience? I didn't think you could.
    Even with guaranteed deathstrike heals and increased threat, it would still be at a significant disadvantage to the two-hander blood DK. Deathstrike for these people will STILL only hit with the damage of a one hander, as would heart strike and rune strike. You would still be gimping your threat gen.... and survival.

    And even if you are somehow able to make it work, you will still be underperforming.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  12. #32
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    If you look at it from a MAX/MIN perspective your damage will be close around 50-25% of normal plus depending on weapons (I'll sim it latter tonight) it will offer more stats then 2H (depending on yet to datamined items). Not to mention the blood worms, which will be at least 100hps gain in 10man, a bit more in 25man with more melee.
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  13. #33
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    I do believe the threat boost has already been implemented with the release of FL. The threat boost went from 300% of the dmg done to 500% which is only a 67% threat boost. This is not enough extra threat to make up for the loss in threat from 2 1H weapons. Pretty much you'll be doing pre-threat boost threat while other tanks are doing 67% more than you. This will cause threat problems between the tanks on tank swap fight and thus causing not only less damage from you but also from the other tank because he now has to stop dps for a longer time and still hold off so he doesn't pull threat prematurely. If the other tank gets lucky or unlucky (depending on how you look at it) crit on their high threat move or even their "spam" ability they will more than likely pull threat at the wrong time which could cause a tank death and thus a wipe. So GG you just caused a wipe because you wanted to look different.

    As for getting more blood worms, the extra healing will not outweigh the extra time spent killing the boss costing healers more mana.

    The extra avoidance you might gain from 2 1H weapons will actually result in taking more damage over the course of the fight due to the fight being longer.

    Even though DW might look good on paper, in practice it just falls flat on its face.

  14. #34
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    You are talking about a reduction in tank dps by about 1.7 to 1.6 k (based on my guild's tank). I don't know of many fights where you bring 1 class of tank over a different class of tanks because of the tanks dps (looking at H baleroc 25 week 2 as an example) instead you bring them because of their ability to survive so you can bring as few healers as possible.


    ***EDIT**
    After 50k sims of each.
    13870.8 dps with the shannox 2H
    11250.4 dps with dual beth weapons.

    2640 dps loss.
    Last edited by leethaxor; 10-07-2011 at 07:21 PM.
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by leethaxor View Post
    If you look at it from a MAX/MIN perspective your damage will be close around 50-25% of normal plus depending on weapons (I'll sim it latter tonight) it will offer more stats then 2H (depending on yet to datamined items). Not to mention the blood worms, which will be at least 100hps gain in 10man, a bit more in 25man with more melee.
    How do you figure it offers more stats?

    Skullstealer Greataxe vs Mandible of Beth'tilac

    Skullstealer gives you 408 str and 611 stam. Mandible x2 gives you 252 str and 524 stam.
    You're behind by 50+ on str and 80+ on stam.

    Skullstealer gives you 276 haste and 265 mastery. Reforge haste into dodge and you'd get like 110 dodge and 166 haste. Mandible x2 gives you 252 dodge and 198 mastery. In this case, the axe is blowing the sword out of the water on mastery to the tune of 67 points. Sword comes out ahead on dodge by 142.

    So, you're sacrificing 50 strength, 80 stam, and 67 mastery, for 142 dodge? Really?

    OH.... and let's not forget, because you've decided to run DW, you now still need to take stats and shift them to hit and expertise to make up for the lack of threat generation. Sure, you have a big fat buff.... but it means ABSOLFREAKIN'LUTELY NOTHING if you DON'T HIT YOUR TARGET.

    So, you'll be intentionally gimping your survival stats to make up for the loss of threat that you have to compensate for.

    As for this...........
    Quote Originally Posted by leethaxor View Post
    Not to mention the blood worms, which will be at least 100hps gain in 10man, a bit more in 25man with more melee.
    How do you figure more in 25 man with more melee? Bloodworms only proc off YOUR melee attacks. Other people's attacks don't contribute. And as for your heal gain..... 100 hps? 100 hps over the course of a 5 minute boss fight is 30,000 health. You really think 30k in heals over a boss fight lasting 5 minutes is a significant contribution?

    If you wanna run it (as I just saw you say you were going to in the shout box) go for it.
    When you come back disappointed, which, at this point, I don't think we're going to be able to make you see our point anyway, no QQ allowed.

    Oh, and while you're at it, make sure you bring back World of Logs or some sort of proof of it working and being comparable to 2H.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  16. #36
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    We talked about it in the shoutbox. But seeing as like 6 members out of the 10k+ member tankspot has actually spend their lives in the shoutbox I'll reiterate from everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    How do you figure it offers more stats?
    Refer to post #11 in this thread then 14 and 16. In these you will find character profiles on chardev.org

    Quote Originally Posted by leucifer View Post
    OH.... and let's not forget, because you've decided to run DW, you now still need to take stats and shift them to hit and expertise to make up for the lack of threat generation. Sure, you have a big fat buff.... but it means ABSOLFREAKIN'LUTELY NOTHING if you DON'T HIT YOUR TARGET.
    Via my post before this

    After 50k sims of each.
    13870.8 dps with the shannox 2H
    11250.4 dps with dual beth weapons.
    With the roughly 5x bonus to threat you are generating 55k threat per second. You have cooldowns like dancing rune wep that give additional threat if the current buff isn't enough. I see no reason to pick up additional hit and expertise unless burst threat is a large problem... And honestly we still have tools that play with the threat table.

    Edit: Also if threat is such an issue for blood why do blood dk's purposely change their rotation via delaying GCD's so they can time blood strikes more?

    Quote Originally Posted by leucifer View Post
    How do you figure more in 25 man with more melee? Bloodworms only proc off YOUR melee attacks.
    In 25man there is more melee to get splashed on when your blood worm pops. My theory is that will make the blood worm heal for more. I state that this will need more testing, as my blood worm tps theory is based around 10man raiding. Also with the dragon soul changes we can expect to see more melee hopefully which will also inadvertently buff this build.
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    You cannot reforge to or from resilience.
    In that case yeah, definately not worth using PvP gear then, as you'll be having the stats of a 346 blue on a 378 PvP item.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  18. #38
    In that case yeah, definately not worth using PvP gear then, as you'll be having the stats of a 346 blue on a 378 PvP item.

    Not really, considering that primary stats are so huge and a 371 helm has ~80 str/agi/int more than a 346 blue. Shoulders having ~58.

    If you wear 371 PvP helm/shoulders (Two hard slots to fill as a beginning 85) you'll have ~208 more of your primary stat including the set bonus. You'll be giving up maybe ~240 of secondary stat itemization.

  19. #39
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    It's actaully closer to 290 secondary stats (don't forget you get 30 stats from the headpiece socket bonus, which in PvP is usually resilience). And ok, I forgot the set bonus, which makes the 371 stuff slightly better than 346 blues, but it doesn't really surpass 353 Zandi stuff.

    I took the caster Shaman stuff for head & shoulders as example and the PvP gear has only 152 Intellect more (assuming all set /socket bonuses) but loses out on 307 worth of secondary stats, for most classes/specs this is about equal in stat weights. Considering the zandi stuff actually has more than 300 Spirit (in case of an Elemental Shaman this means hit rating, which actually is worth atleast as much as Intellect pre-cap), this makes the zandi stuff atleast equal and as a side bonus, it's easier to reforge once you hit the cap, because you don't have to reforge per 100 rating.

    I can see someone using the Resto Shaman head/shoulders, but considering the VP bracers, craftable boots and the relatively easy to get Avengers belt, that's the only thing worth taking and ONLY because of the set bonus of 70 Intellect bumping it up.
    Note that a 'simple' BoT PuG doing 3/4 could also net you a decent 359 headpiece & shoulders, which imho are better than the 371 PvP stuff. I guess the 384 stuff would be better untill FL stuff, but would you really want to waste 3300 Conquest points on temporary stuff if you plan to raid anyway?

    Overall, I think that except for head/shoulders and in some cases, weaponry are an upgrade from BGs than from raids, mostly because of the ease to get them in PvP and the lack of decent armor pieces between ZA/ZG and +6/7 FL and the high DPS/SP on the PvP weapons due to ilvl. But this is a design flaw, which (I hope) will see a correction in 4.3 with the LFR grating access to some decent upgrades for those slots outside of PvP.

    Hmmm, dunno to be glad or not about us moving the discussion away from DK DW tanks :P
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  20. #40
    but it doesn't really surpass 353 Zandi stuff.
    Right, I'd never use a 371 PvP over a 353 ZA/ZG, unless there was some very particular reason why. Generally if I'm wearing PvP gear it's because I'm on a fresh 85 and have little choice though and I'm in ZA/ZG specifically to get gear. Seems to be something a lot of raiders forget, people go to 5-mans to get gear, not just to farm VP for the week.

    Note that a 'simple' BoT PuG doing 3/4 could also net you a decent 359 headpiece & shoulders, which imho are better than the 371 PvP stuff.
    Assuming a fresh 85 would get into a BoT. (Having flashbacks of people expecting T6 gear to get into Karazhan here, ugh) and that the stuff drops, and they win the roll and etc etc.

    Ultimately the point is that the blind hate against PvP gear in 5-mans is just silly. There's no reason for it, people are just trained to freak out when they see it.

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