Blood Tanking with DW after threat boost

[Allahdin]

Hello,

Pre-threat boost tanking with DW was useless since we've had problems keeping aggro as only main hand was counted into it. Now, that Blizz gave us 500% threat from our attacks threat problems are minor. So, why we shouldn't be tanking with DW, having two tank weapons that are claerly giving us much more avoidance than 2h?

I'm not sure if it works like that so any comments are welcome.

[Mallok]

Even if it works now, it will likely not work at all after 4.3. But if it's something you insist on doing now may be your only chance. Just remember it's not Blizzards intent to ever support it, so the potential big changes might break it somehow.

[Toushiro]

If you got tank 1 handers, give it a shot. Like Mallok said, Blizzard might do some kind of change that again forces us to use a 2H to tank since that's what they want us to do.

[sifuedition]

I don't mean to be nit-picky. It would likely be possible, but since you asked "why not", here goes:

Tank 1 handers have 100 or less rating per stat. 2 handers have ~200 per stat. If you get a 2 hander with mastery, you are not actually losing much in stats. Additionally, if you can get exp or hit as the second stat on the 2 hander, this helps survivability with death strikes and the one handers may have the same stat anyways (soul blade etc).

For the trade off on 100-200 rating, you are losing a large amount of damage. Even if you don't need the damage for threat, it makes fights shorter and therefore, healing easier.

For what it's worth, that's just my opinion on why just because you can dual wield, you shouldn't.

[Theotherone]

Some day this horse will stay dead.

[swelt]

So in this tier (normal modes) this is your comparison:
http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items....52215.0.0.142

I don't see the difference in stats as compelling enough to sacrifice the damage, a bit of extra dodge rating on the 2x1 handers goes up against more mastery and stam, plus a bunch of other (less useful but still beneficial) stats. Combine that with many of your styles doing less damage... not convinced.

[Toushiro]

So in this tier (normal modes) this is your comparison:
http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items....52215.0.0.142

I don't see the difference in stats as compelling enough to sacrifice the damage.

One problem with your link, not everyone is clearing FLs enough to get Rags mace, that axe (which the haste doesn't make it that amazing of a tanking weapon any ways, that's why the new BS 2 hander isn't even a suggestion for DK tanks that don't raid or do raid but T11 only)

[Tengenstein]

eh, not until Blizz strap a 2h requirment on Heartstrike or Deathstrike. It's the same as warrior who PVE with Bloodcraze of Deep wounds, a big DPS loss fo a tiny Survivability increase. With the current state of tanking there's no real argument against it unless your extending the fight to the enrage or OOming your healers. Plus more bloodworms, which for a given definition, is FUN!

[path411]

You will likely end up taking more damage over the course of a fight due to the dps loss.

[Rennadrel]

It's not viable, there is no discussion to be had on this. It doesn't work, never has and never will. There is too much of a survivability loss with taking the points needed to dual wield with an effective amount of hit rating, making threat generation even worse when you have no expertise and your auto swings constantly miss, along with special abilities.

[leethaxor]

Blood Worms
You have 2 2.6 speed weapons meaning you make a melee swing every 1.3 second (approx.) with a 10% chance to proc blood parasites you will spawn a new on once every ~13 seconds as blood.
This is compared to 2h were you will see one once ever ~36 seconds.
Verdict: So you could potentially see a almost a 2x increase to healing from blood worms. Which isn't that bad.

That is what you will gain. Roughly 2x the healing from blood worms

As outlined in these character devs
Normal Blood
DW Blood

Avoidance issue caused by chardev.org being bugged.

Now what about damage? The below snippet, is from last tier, and based around 359 ilvl weapons. Since scaling is still very similar (see same xpack, we can likely assume its hold true, if you force me I will redo it).

Death Strike
150.0%--Base
285.0%--90% Improved Death Strike
(ignoring glyph) Assuming 20k AP, and Assuming I taught myself normalization correct
For one hand DS: 4270 to 4992 Damage
For two hand DS: 6509 to 7407 Damage
Result: 2hand DS hits for ~150% more.

***TLDR***Less Damage
100 more HPS

[swelt]

That didn't make sense to me, so I dug a bit. Looks like chardev doesn't recognise the 2% parry from the offhand rune. You can see this yourself: change the offhand rune to nerubian carapace then back to swordbreaking. The armor value goes up when you select nerubian carapace (as you'd expect) but the parry chance remains unchanged when you switch it back to swordbreaking. I am not aware of any limitation that states you can only use 1 weapon with swordbreaking, and I think that missing 2% would close the gap.

[uglie]

The damage you lose from going with 2 1H weapons vs a 2H will not out weight the minuscule extra healing you receive from a couple extra blood worms. Using 2 1H will make the fight longer thus making your healers more likely to go oom and even if you did gain more avoidance your healers will never notice it. Though they will notice the fight last longer. There's been a couple time on shannox where rageface was near me and my healer was getting faceraged but I was able to hit him with a 30k+ DS and break him out potentially saving the raid. besides it's nice to see those big crits as a tank every so often.

[leethaxor]

That didn't make sense to me, so I dug a bit. Looks like chardev doesn't recognise the 2% parry from the offhand rune. You can see this yourself: change the offhand rune to nerubian carapace then back to swordbreaking. The armor value goes up when you select nerubian carapace (as you'd expect) but the parry chance remains unchanged when you switch it back to swordbreaking. I am not aware of any limitation that states you can only use 1 weapon with swordbreaking, and I think that missing 2% would close the gap.

This boost would bring DW to just about within the margin of error of gems, reforging and enchanting. And to get that close you would have to have access to heroic firelands loot. Also nobody did point out that the 2h that was used was higher item level then the DW weapons. Which would imply that DW will net you more avoidance, and higher HPS for yourself and your melee dps.

Hate to say I'm a convert, in equal ilvl weapons DW may out perform 2h POST 4.3.

[Kemanorel]

after miss/parry/dodge Death Strike still gives the absorb, perhaps. As it stands, not yet... but we might see.

[leethaxor]

after miss/parry/dodge Death Strike still gives the absorb, perhaps. As it stands, not yet... but we might see.

It will greatly depend on weapons, if we see another dodge/mastery 1h then DW should edge out over 2h (in everything but dps). If we see a dodge/parry then DW will have a massive lead over 2h. The only solution I can see is having deathwing drop a mastery/wildcard 2h that is higher item then the 1h weapons. If not, i'll be in the DW blood camp.

Also with the 4.3 melee buffs and a 'passive' melee buff in the Dragon Soul instance itself. We may start seeing more melee dps, which may buff blood worms even more (I know we are talking about a very small heal), but can anyone confirm how the blood worm mechanic works?

[Redefined]

I hate to be nonconstructive, but I can't believe this is still around...

It has been said time and time again.. Can you do it? Sure. But you are not using your character and tools to their optimum capability.

If that is okay with you and the people you are with, have at it.

-Red

[Theotherone]

I've seen more DK tanks trying to DW tank these days, if I'm healing I usually just leave the group, if I'm feeling particularly nasty I let the them pull first; maybe two weapons will give them block - frankly, I've just grown weary of stupid. I've been focused on pvp geared dps in randoms too these days, they don't get heals - maybe they'll get the message to back to their BG or arena.

Guess I've just lost all patience.

[Lilreggie]

If you sim it, the 371-384 pvp gear is better than the 346-353 and even a lot of 359s for most classes. Plus, dps isn't that important in heroics with a 15% buff.

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[Krenian]

I've seen more DK tanks trying to DW tank these days, if I'm healing I usually just leave the group, if I'm feeling particularly nasty I let the them pull first; maybe two weapons will give them block - frankly, I've just grown weary of stupid. I've been focused on pvp geared dps in randoms too these days, they don't get heals - maybe they'll get the message to back to their BG or arena.

Guess I've just lost all patience.

I would seriously hate you if you are like this. For dps dks, one of the better alternatives is the pvp weapons. The cleavers are boe drops in fl and no offense, I'm not dropping 20k + for those axes. I'll pvp to get those weapons instead.

Seeing frost dw is the best dps for dks ATM, you might want to second guess your opinion about dps using pvp items. Not all of us are doing it for sheer laziness. (and don't give me that "go farm bwl" crap either. That's not an option for some)