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Thread: What is Your Definition of Casual Raiding?

  1. #1
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    What is Your Definition of Casual Raiding?

    The last Weekly Marmot ressurected what was for me an old question.
    What is the Definition of Casual Raiding?

    For me a casual Raider is one that enjoys raiding but never really has any plans on doing Heroic/Hard modes.

    But when I started my guild raid group I described it as "Casual" and on our first night of raiding only half the people were logged on and ready to go at raiding time. When I later asked the others why they were no show they basically said they thought 'casual meant a pug ' and show up if you feel like raiding that night.
    I had other people asking to join the group that had just hit lvl cap and weren't even geared for heroics who thought "Casual" meant no gear requirement (even tho the gear requirements were posted).

    So I am interested to hear others definition of a Casual Raider?
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    If a pug can clear more content than your static raid group, you are a casual (if you are not 12/12 normal AT LEAST)

    Back in TBC, casual meant you cleared kara and ZA and pugged gruul and mag and maybe the entry bosses in TK and SSC. In LK it meant you cleared the first 8 heroic bosses in ICC in a pug. In todays game it means you clear 6-8 heroic bosses across the 3 instances.

    It also means someone who has terrible friends and puts friendship over killing bosses because if you really want to you should be and can easily be (heroic) 6/6 BWD (yes heroic nef is that easy as long as you have someone who is good at kiting in phase 3) 2/5 BoT and 1/2 conclave



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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    If a pug can clear more content than your static raid group, you are a casual (if you are not 12/12 normal AT LEAST)

    Back in TBC, casual meant you cleared kara and ZA and pugged gruul and mag and maybe the entry bosses in TK and SSC. In LK it meant you cleared the first 8 heroic bosses in ICC in a pug. In todays game it means you clear 6-8 heroic bosses across the 3 instances.

    It also means someone who has terrible friends and puts friendship over killing bosses because if you really want to you should be and can easily be (heroic) 6/6 BWD (yes heroic nef is that easy as long as you have someone who is good at kiting in phase 3) 2/5 BoT and 1/2 conclave
    Casual is 6-8/13? Then I'm way the hell behind. I hadn't heard that PuGs were clearing 12/12 normal. Certainly my guild was pretty proud of dropping Cho'gall normal the other day, and we're looking forward to Nef soon. I always kind of considered us to be progressive casual, with the true casual sorts doing 5 mans and maybe killing 5-6 bosses in all 3 raids. I guess under your measurement, I'm at the low end of casual with 10/12 normal.
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    hrm, after doing some research ...

    Apparently guilds can be 4 or 5 heroics down and are still not capable of killing the end bosses in the instance and are 4/13 but only 8/12

    also it must be a server thing. My server has 10 guilds with 6/13 and 22 with at least 3 hard modes cleared and of the other 16 guilds with only 1 or 2 hard modes .... all but 1 are 10 man guilds.

    take this chart (not the graph the chart) for whatever you feel its worth towards this topic http://www.guildox.com/go/g.asp?a=6&w=



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    I think this thread has already identified the problems with the A or B use of Casual / Hardcore. If you're not A, you're B is a false dichomety here.

    I think there are at least 3 levels, when painting with very broad brush strokes.

    Casual: Will raid if that's what others want to do. Primary focus is having fun.

    Raider: Wants to raid, wants to progress. Not willing to make raiding their purpose playing wow, but does want to kill some bosses, and getting to the patch endgame isn't bad. Everyone is helping each other get better, but very friendly.

    Hardcore: Raiding is why they play the game. Server rank is important, world rank is better. Effort is put up or shut up. You have to be improving and looking to improve or you're probably on your way out of the guild.

    Now obviously there is overlap and a guild can have all 3 in it, usually a source of tension within the guild.

    ****

    What I would say is a 'casual raiding guild' is probably working on Council, Conclave, and Omni.

    A Raiding guild is working on one or 2 hard modes.

    A hardcore guild is pushing 5 or 6 hard modes.

    You can't use progression as the sole indicator of whether someone is causal/raider/hardcore because it's not a solo event.
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    Willingness to learn is more of a factor than time played. i can guarentee that i spend less time in game raiding, or playing at all, than most casual guilds. Yet im more progressed than most. Just because i theory craft in my spare time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    hrm, after doing some research ...

    Apparently guilds can be 4 or 5 heroics down and are still not capable of killing the end bosses in the instance and are 4/13 but only 8/12

    also it must be a server thing. My server has 10 guilds with 6/13 and 22 with at least 3 hard modes cleared and of the other 16 guilds with only 1 or 2 hard modes .... all but 1 are 10 man guilds.

    take this chart (not the graph the chart) for whatever you feel its worth towards this topic http://www.guildox.com/go/g.asp?a=6&w=
    So by that chart, if you've killed heroic Halfus, you're in the top 20% of all guilds that raid. Among those that both raid and don't raid, you're probably much higher than that. If you've killed 2/13, you're in the top 10%, and if you've killed 6/13, you're in the top 4%. I would definitely say based on that, that any guild who has killed a heroic mode at all can more correctly be fit into Logan's "Raider" category than "Casual." If you've killed 6/13, you probably fit closer to "Hardcore."
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    There's definitely overlap in those categories because I consider both Probably Drunk and Goliath National Bank to have been "casual-hardcore" guilds. Roll Initiative was sort of the same, but definitely more on the hardxcore end.

    I think there are a lot of contributing factors, and casual-hardcore guilds are hard to manage and strike the right tone with, but if you can make one or find one, then you'll have an awesome time, imo.

    I don't really consider GNB full on "hardxcore" because we only raid for 10.5 hours a week (3 3.5 hour raids), and we understand that RL happens and have recruited a bench around that. However, when we come to raid, we definitely have a more hardcore mindset and require people to be gemmed and spec'd properly and perform well and learn from their mistakes. We want people that know their characters, not people that just want to get carried.

    We're only 6/13 HMs right now, but we're also the #1 10 man guild on the server, albeit it's kind of a crappy server. However, we also started very late, and had kind of a growing pains period of about 5 weeks when we couldn't field a full or A-Team raid shortly after we killed Nef, so that pushed us back some too, but we've recruited the gaps and even missing 4 players (depending on who they are) we can still field a full A-quality raid and do progression. I'm pretty excited to see how we do in firelands! lol.
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  9. #9
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    [QUOTE=Loganisis;507520]I think this thread has already identified the problems with the A or B use of Casual / Hardcore. If you're not A, you're B is a false dichomety here.

    I think there are at least 3 levels, when painting with very broad brush strokes.

    Casual: Will raid if that's what others want to do. Primary focus is having fun.

    Raider: Wants to raid, wants to progress. Not willing to make raiding their purpose playing wow, but does want to kill some bosses, and getting to the patch endgame isn't bad. Everyone is helping each other get better, but very friendly.

    Hardcore: Raiding is why they play the game. Server rank is important, world rank is better. Effort is put up or shut up. You have to be improving and looking to improve or you're probably on your way out of the guild.

    Now obviously there is overlap and a guild can have all 3 in it, usually a source of tension within the guild.

    ****

    I Agree with this assesment. I fall between "Casual and Raider". I Raid because I enjoy Raiding and enjoy the enviroment whether it's Chimeron or an Ulduar fun run!

    You really can't Define whether a Raid Guild/Group is Hardcore or not by how many bosses they have downed. For example I doubt Paragon would have described itself as a "Casual Guild" on the first day of Cata. A newly created guild/group can be Casual or Hardcore in it's Objectives and Approach to Raiding.
    "It's always the Healer's fault; unless it's the Tanks fault, just ask the DPS'er in purples doing 5k!"

  10. #10
    Casual: Will raid if that's what others want to do. Primary focus is having fun.

    Raider: Wants to raid, wants to progress. Not willing to make raiding their purpose playing wow, but does want to kill some bosses, and getting to the patch endgame isn't bad. Everyone is helping each other get better, but very friendly.

    Hardcore: Raiding is why they play the game. Server rank is important, world rank is better. Effort is put up or shut up. You have to be improving and looking to improve or you're probably on your way out of the guild.
    Yeah, my guild is somewhere between Raider and Hardcore. We have that, "If you're not trying to be the best why are you bothering?" kind of attitude most of the time, but we also tend to approach progression and such with a rather relaxed attitude. We raid anywhere from 1-3 nights a week depending on attendance and just downed H-Al'akir last week, so I'm not always sure how to classify us.

    As for "casual raiding" I'd have to assume it's just what it sounds like. People who raid with some friends/guildies because it's what they feel like doing and have some fun doing it that night.
    Last edited by Bovinity; 05-14-2011 at 06:35 AM.

  11. #11
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    This Definition came from a Guildy Mazzus:

    Re: What doe Casual Raid Group Mean to you?
    My definitions for Casual, Semi-casual, and hardcore raiding would be as follows:

    Hardcore

    Group makeup: Fixed, generally same people, but at least same class distribution every time, focusing on optimal setups.

    Goal: Progression. Standing may or may not be a part of it. Guilds who start raiding late into an expansion are hardly going to have any shot at standing, but doesn't mean they don't want to progress.

    Raidmember responsibilities: Thorough class research to optimize DPS, such as casting order, rotations, talent specs, gear, mastery, glyphs, enchantments, etc etc. Other raidmembers will be doing this and will expect you to do the same. Have appropriate mods installed. Also, thorough research of the encounter, watching videos, reading walkthroughs, writeups, tips, etc so that even if it's your first time, you understand the theory of what you need to be doing, even if you need practice.

    What to expect on the raid: For new raidforces - grind, grind, grind, wipe, wipe, wipe. The goal is to learn and beat each encounter as soon as possible. So if that means spending 3-4 hours constantly wiping as you learn a new encounter, then that's what you're going to do. For raidforces that have been around awhile - kill, move, kill, move, kill, move. The raid has done these encounters 50 times already, so the goal is to kill as much as possible, so be prepared, try to keep up, and for godsakes no stealth AFKs.

    Semi-casual

    Group makeup: 60-80% fixed. Generally these have a core of consistent raiders, with the rest being filled out by a group of rotating people who just can't attend every raid session. Groups are built to be as optimal as possible, but obviously don't sweat having one or two redundant classes here and there.

    Goal: Gearing up and progression. Gearing up this force takes longer, both because of the larger raid pool, but also with some of the raidforce having odd attendance, it may take awhile to get them geared, depending on how frequently they can attend. Progression is the ultimate goal, but considering the harder encounters require better gear, gearing necessarily comes first. While progression, as a goal, is similar to that of a hardcore guild/group, the reasons are not. To my mind, for hardcore, progression is the means and the end, but for semi-casual, progression is the means to see something new. "We've killed mob A 15 times now, it would be nice to work on and kill mob B for a change"

    Raidmember responsibilities: You don't need to be optimized gear and skillwise to within an inch of your life as with a hardcore group, but you should at least know your class fairly well as to how you should generally spec and have some enchantments/glypsh, etc. The core members will generally be optimized closer to the hardcore framework, mainly because since they attend every raid they will be more of that mindset. Even so, for the most part (I like to think), they are more willing to work with the less frequent attendees with guidance, instruction, and accepting of sub-optimal gear. Should try to understand the boss encounters beforehand, but instructions can and usually are given everytime, as new people showup, or to refresh the minds of people who've been away.

    What to expect on the raid: Mostly rehashing content that's been killed already, generally to gear people. New encounters will be worked on, but it's usually not the main focus. The time spent working on new encounters is generally dictated by the raidforce. If the raidforce can kill the old stuff quickly enough, will work on the new. Fair amount of time may be spent on instruction, either on specific encounters, or general raiding.

    Casual

    Group makeup: Only requirements are the obvious ones: sufficient tanks, heals, etc. Again, may build the most optimal raidforce with whats given, but it's possible nobody in the raid knows what that is.

    Goal: Gear, chat, have a beer, not necessarily in that order. People in this will have the most varied reasons for doing it. Some will actually want a shot at some gear, others just want to chill or chat with guildies.

    Raidmember responsibilities: Listen to your raidleader. While this even is probably more social event than raid, it still IS a raid, so try to listen to directions at least a little bit, hehe.

    What to expect on the raid: Nothing. It is a casual raid, so don't go in expecting to go full bore working on defeating some encounter. You're only going to get frustrated and angry and may say things you probably shouldn't. Take a deep breath, put on some Spyro Gyra, and accept any gear that you get as mana from heaven


    As a caveat, I will say the the goal for all these types is to have fun, but broadly speaking, the definition of fun varies from type to type. Just make sure your personal goal and style matches that of the group you're joining. Oh yeah, and have fun, whatever that is
    "It's always the Healer's fault; unless it's the Tanks fault, just ask the DPS'er in purples doing 5k!"

  12. #12
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    I think the difference comes from whether or not your guild is going for server/world firsts etc....If you are not then you are a casual raider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bung View Post
    I think the difference comes from whether or not your guild is going for server/world firsts etc....If you are not then you are a casual raider.

    Your definition doesn't work because then only guilds that were formed during WOTLK can be Hardcore, and any guild formed after that would be Casual. I think there are many guilds out there that would disagree including LOD and Lore's Month's Behind which he considers Hardcore.
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    I didn't have a lot of time yesterday so I apologize if my answer was brief. To broaden my definition I would also include that harcore guilds have very specific rules, require 100% attendance, and require more significant raiding time than a casual guild. Lore stated that these terms are used loosely and I agree. I would say Lore's guild is hardcore because they are progressing into the hard modes (if they aren't already done), they want to be the most progressed guild on their server, and they have very strict raiding rules. Less than that you could consider "semi-hardcore". Take my guild for example. We are currently 5/13 on hard modes and we are trying to progress as much as possible, but we are not adding a 4th night to raiding. We don't require 100% of attendance (it's actually 80%). We create some flexibility in our game play due to personal life and raid 12 hours week. I would call us "semi-hardcore" a little closer to hard core than we are casual. To me a casual raider might just pug it or be in a guild that randomly raids and has very few rules/guidelines about raiding if any.

  15. #15
    To broaden my definition I would also include that harcore guilds have very specific rules, require 100% attendance, and require more significant raiding time than a casual guild.
    This is why strict or semi-strict definitions don't work though. My guild is a pretty good example of a "hardcore" guild that seems to have more casual traits than hardcore.

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    What is Your Definition of Casual Raiding?

    My guild doesnt insist on raid attendance, but if you sign up for the raid the expectation is that you have all your gear gemmed, enchanted and your gear is appropriate for the raid, and that you have done some reading up on the tactics for the encounters. The guild provides flasks and food. I think we have had no more than 2 or 3 sign up and not show up in the last year.

    We call ourselves a casual raiding guild.

    It's a nice environment. If you need take a break, then you can.

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    I believe this thread has determined there are many levels of Hardcore and Casual, but to boil it down to the essentials would be this.

    Hardcore: Cares about Proggression and Server/World Ranking, and takes whatever steps they deem neccessary to achieve those goals.

    Casual: Wants to Raid, Wants to Proggress, Good ranking or first "would be nice", but Primary Focus is "Having Fun".
    "It's always the Healer's fault; unless it's the Tanks fault, just ask the DPS'er in purples doing 5k!"

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    i think casual raiding is like 2-3 nights a week maybe 2-3 hrs per run...to me hardcore seems like 7 days a week or pure raidng but may not be right because it owuldnt take that long to finish all the raids. I really dont see the sense in joining a raiding guild if you're not going to raid. yeah a bit of what Uranos says above......on another note how bad did we get nerfed this patch...fury warriors....my dps sucks now....maybe im just on my decline but overall i was pulling 13.5k dps through 3 bosses in BOT tonight and i usually am good for 15-20k easily.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonnyJr View Post
    i think casual raiding is like 2-3 nights a week maybe 2-3 hrs per run...to me hardcore seems like 7 days a week or pure raidng but may not be right because it owuldnt take that long to finish all the raids. I really dont see the sense in joining a raiding guild if you're not going to raid. yeah a bit of what Uranos says above......on another note how bad did we get nerfed this patch...fury warriors....my dps sucks now....maybe im just on my decline but overall i was pulling 13.5k dps through 3 bosses in BOT tonight and i usually am good for 15-20k easily.
    Eh, we're 1/7 HM so far (we'll be 2/7 tonight!) and by your definition we're a casual guild.

    According to Uranos', however, we're hardcore-ish (we care about our rank...but we're not on the "DO ANYTHING IT TAKES" bandwagon).

    I suppose we're similar to Bov's guild, in that respect...we look fairly hardcore from the outside, but we definitely see ourselves as pretty slack. Especially compared to other guilds on our server with similar progression.

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    I'm pretty sure even a casual raiding guild should have certain baselines if they want to do more than just beat their head against a wall. That was the problem on my DK in Wrath. The requirements my guild set for raiding was "Show up if you sign up." So there I am in my full t10 with 251 drops from ICC, beating my head against a wall named Saurfang because the ranged took longer to kill the blood beasts than it took the boss to spawn a new set. It got to the point that I'd peel off the boss and knock the beasts half dead then the two hunters would taunt-shot. Group comp was a prot warrior, prot pally, 1 unholy DK, 1 frost DK, two hunters, one arcane mage, a disc priest, a resto shaman, and "the pug". LOL I didn't even see Putricide until I got to pug on my DK since I took my hunter on the guild run. But on that pug, we took a few shots at LK before the tuesday morning downtime. That made me smile.. and /gquit. LOL!

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