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Thread: Possible 4.3 Threat Changes

  1. #61
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    From a dps'ing PoV I like this change, I don't have to invis 30 seconds after the pull as an arcane mage any more.
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  2. #62
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    I really dont understand what everyone is up in arms about. I bet if they had actually put these changes in a week before they had announced them then no one would have noticed a difference. Threat hasnt been an issue against dps for a very long time in raids. The only time I ever noticed any bit of difficulty was during certain tank swap fights but even then my other tank and I would just communicate to slow dps and let the other catch up. So this whole idea some people have that the removal of threat as a mechanic is just dumbing down the game is ridiculous. And since the threat mechanic has in reality been such a non-issue for the last three years I also dont understand how some can say that it was something they really enjoyed or something that set a good tank apart.

    People were up in arms all over this before they even set foot in an instance or a raid. And really fellow tanks, if this dumbs the game for you, your healers, and your dps as much as you claim it will then I will expect each of you to be posting here in the next couple of weeks with the Firelord title in front of your name. The game is still extremely difficult at the proper levels and if you find that the removal of the threat mechanic simplifies the game for you so much then find a raid that is worthy of your skill.

    I apologize for sounding abrasive but I get so very frustrated with many in the community who seem like their sole purpose is to be critical of every single change blizzard makes and claim that its something they do for noobs only and will make the game too easy and boring for the "real" players. The reality though is that the game is just as fun and just as if not more challenging than it ever has been. Furthermore everyone is concentrating on the buff to threat and almost completely ignoring the bigger more exciting news...

    The introduction of active mitigation to tanking.

    This is perhaps the most ground breaking change to the tank role the game has ever seen and it makes complete sense. How much did Blizz tell us they wanted dps in Cata to feel more powerful. They changed the dps model away from strict rigid rotations to more progressive reactive ones, as well as cut down the amount of damage from auto attacks and made your abilities give a feeling of more power. They changed the healing model to reward efficiency, mana management, and spell usage. Tank reconstruction was naturally next. They discussed they love the idea of how DKs have more of an active role in their survival and work harder than any other tank class for it. And though there are changes that need to be made to DKs (which he also said in a later post would be happening perhaps as soon as 4.3) the idea behind tanks being more active in their survival and mitigation instead of throwing on gear and having it just be passive and something you dont work for is maybe the most exciting news I've ever heard for our role. If you really want to separate a good tank from another they are going to give us the best way to do it.

    As a community lets try to be less critical of things and more positive about what's ahead. I encourage change in the game as it keeps thongs fresh.
    Last edited by Cartavius; 08-18-2011 at 08:20 AM. Reason: My apologies for the brick. I'm still at a loss for why they call these things smart phones

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartavius View Post
    I really dont understand what everyone is up in arms about. I bet if they had actually put these changes in a week before they had announced them then no one would have noticed a difference. Threat hasnt been an issue against dps for a very long time in raids. The only time I ever noticed any bit of difficulty was during certain tank swap fights but even then my other tank and I would just communicate to slow dps and let the other catch up. So this whole idea some people have that the removal of threat as a mechanic is just running down the game is ridiculous. And since the threat mechanic has in reality been such a non-issue for the last three years I also dont understand how some can say that it was something they really enjoyed or something that set a good tank apart. People were up in arms all over this before they even set foot in an instance or a raid. And really fellow tanks, if this dumbs the game for you, your healers, and your dps as much as you claim it will then I will expect each of you to be posting here in the next couple of weeks with the Firelord title in front of your name. The game is still extremely difficult at the proper levels and if you find that the removal of the threat mechanic simplifies the game for you so much then find a raid that is worthy of your skill. I apologize for sounding abrasive but I get so very frustrated with many in the community who seem like their sole purpose is to be critical of every single change blizzard makes and claim that its something they do for noobs only and will make the game too easy and boring for the "real" players. The reality though is that the game is just as fun and just as if not more challenging than it ever has been. Furthermore everyone is concentrating on the buff to threat and almost completely ignoring the bigger more exciting news... The introduction of active mitigation to tanking. This is perhaps the most ground breaking change to the tank role the game has ever seen and it makes complete sense. How much did Blizz tell us they wanted dps in Cata to feel more powerful. They changed the dps model away from strict rigid rotations to more progressive reactive ones, as well as cut down the amount of damage from auto attacks and made your abilities give a feeling of more power. They changed the healing model to reward efficiency, mana management, and spell usage. Tank reconstruction was naturally next. They discussed they love the idea of how DKs have more of an active role in their survival and work harder than any other tank class for it. And though there are changes that need to be made to DKs (which he also said in a later post would be happening perhaps as soon as 4.3) the idea behind tanks being more active in their survival and mitigation instead of throwing on gear and having it just be passive and something you dont work for is maybe the most exciting news I've heard for us ever. If you really want to separate a good tank from another they are going to give us the best way to do it. As a community lets try to be less critical of things and more positive about what's ahead. I encourage change in the game as it keeps thongs fresh.
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  4. #64
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    I completely agree with the OP. Threat has only been an annoyance for tanks in raids on pull--definitely not something that distinguishes a good raiding tank from another.

    The promised active mitigation changes are what I'm really looking forward to. Maybe I'll start playing classes other than my DK for tanking when that happens.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartavius View Post
    As a community lets try to be less critical of things and more positive about what's ahead. I encourage change in the game as it keeps thongs fresh.
    Yeah, to place an addendum on my BLARGH post, I am happy to see "Long Term Plans" incorporate an active tanking model. However, as much as I hate to be "that guy," how many "long term plans" have never happened? How many times have the developers introduced drastically new mechanics mid expansion cross role?

    I honestly don't see the two [immediate & longterm] as directly connected. Making threat a bygone conclusion now and maybe, possibly an active tanking model Soon(tm) doesn't sit well. If they are so hand-in-hand, why hotfix ubervengance? It's like, hey, we want you to taste this mac n' cheese, but first, just eat the cheese. Now eat it for a while and let us know what you think. At some point we're gonna add in some macaroni as well.

    I've really only been super negative about two "changes" in the past 7 years playing this game. The fiasco with PW:S in 4.0.x & this. Change doesn't bother me. Really, really odd moves that don't jive right do.



  6. #66
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    A guy I play with observed that this is just candy coating around the simple truth: Heroic tanking is screwed up when theres major gear disparities and heroic domo has threat issues. 2 birds, 1 stone and a pile of promises that we won't see until next expansion if at all.
    Last edited by feralminded; 08-18-2011 at 10:47 AM.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritus View Post
    Yeah, to place an addendum on my BLARGH post, I am happy to see "Long Term Plans" incorporate an active tanking model. However, as much as I hate to be "that guy," how many "long term plans" have never happened? How many times have the developers introduced drastically new mechanics mid expansion cross role?
    I'll be that guy, Active defenses with out threat mechanics sounds fun. not having active defenses and no threat mechanic IS boring. Once that change is made this change makes sense, unti then it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritus View Post
    I honestly don't see the two [immediate & longterm] as directly connected. Making threat a bygone conclusion now and maybe, possibly an active tanking model Soon(tm) doesn't sit well. If they are so hand-in-hand, why hotfix ubervengance? It's like, hey, we want you to taste this mac n' cheese, but first, just eat the cheese. Now eat it for a while and let us know what you think. At some point we're gonna add in some macaroni as well.
    Indeed, i mean Wath prot pallies had to keep Holy shield, Divine Plea and occasionally sacred shield up while maintianing threat. The two don't have to be either or, they can be interlaced and that would for fun game play. where does anyof that mean we need to make threat a bygone conclusion? it doesn't.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    But won't the non overgeared tank be running at High vengeance, whereas the over geared raid tank will have trouble stacking it.
    I don't understand why this would be.

  9. #69
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    Becuase Vengenace is proportional to Incoming DPS, if a tank has less armour, less avoidance, less mastery they tend to take MORE damage.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Becuase Vengenace is proportional to Incoming DPS, if a tank has less armour, less avoidance, less mastery they tend to take MORE damage.
    I can't speak for all overgeared tanks but when I run a heroic (pretty rare these days) I do it in my Alysrazor gear ... which has a pile of expertise, some hit, and even some crit while still having better mitigation than them. My mainhand does almost 40% more raw DPS and I reckon I have hundreds more points of strength just from the passive strength on my gear. There's no way they can keep up.
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  11. #71
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    Why would an undergeared tank be competeing with you're over geared tank for threat in a 5 man? why would there be two tanks?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Why would an undergeared tank be competeing with you're over geared tank for threat in a 5 man? why would there be two tanks?
    What in the world are you talking about? Because I'm talking about why it's way easier for me to tank a 5 man in my 375 raid gear than my buddy who's in 355 heroic gear. Hell before the patch I avoided tanking on my feral druid specifically for this reason (the few times I did it was a nightmare) ... now I'll probably get back at it because I won't have to worry about it so much.
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  13. #73
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    You quoted me talking about Less well geared tanks and ended your statment with "there's no chance they can keep up"

  14. #74
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    I had not played since this hotfix went in. Last night all we had left to do in Firelands was Ragnaros. I actually forgot about the threat changes, being a tank the first pull, look at omen and think... wow... Then it dawns on me, threat was changed. Kinda silly, I really am for the changes but man when I look at omen and the number 2 person in threat is so far behind me it isn't even funny. I guess I can just remove omen all together now.

  15. #75
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    Welcome back classic shield block?

  16. #76
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    I wonder if they'll do the same for warlock and hunter pets now.

    And yeah, I guess it's time to drop Omen. I've barely looked at it since I stopped tanking anyway.
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  17. #77
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    What about threat sets? I imagine it being useful for situations like the Alysraszor birds, but I suppose we can leave that idea.

  18. #78
    "How much did Blizz tell us they wanted dps in Cata to feel more powerful. They changed the dps model away from strict rigid rotations to more progressive reactive ones, as well as cut down the amount of damage from auto attacks and made your abilities give a feeling of more power. "

    Blizzard also said they wanted threat to be a real consideration again which is why they removed flat threat bonuses from most abilities so it'd be more closely related to tank DPS as well. They also said they wanted a way from keeping tanks from falling behind DPS and introduced Vengence as the menchanic they could "easily adjust" as needed to compensate for when DPS started to pull ahead. Rather than adjusting the numbers they simply just through all of threat out the window.

    Now w/ that said I do miss when threat was actually an issue. I set myself apart as a tank in BC when it was just that, a great tank would average about 1-2k TPS tops and every other tank was throttling DPS hindering the fight. This was fun for me as word gets out that DPS didn't have to throttle at all or not as much and suddenly I'm a very sought after tank, all the while having the sense of accomplishment and inflated ego knowing that I was better than most. This allowed me to get into a guild that would eventually clear all of T6 which not too many guilds did before all the nerfs.

    And in terms of "exciting" proc based dps or something along those lines... thats a bunch of hogwash its a rotation w/ maybe 1 ability thrown in as a proc for nearly every class. Demon locks, immolate, hand of guldan on cooldown to keep immolate up, refresh dots as needed then shadow bolt until you get an incinerate proc... not rocket science, better than a set constant rotation but thats still long from what I'd call active and engaging.

    On to Fury warrior, BT, CB, RB, use slam if it procs. Almost identical to a lock but even easier to do good dps because now I don't have to watch DOT timers.

    I do like the idea of worrying less about threat and more about mitigation. Whats funny is they had something similar w/ Shield Block in the day where you had to keep it up 100% or DIE!! They got rid of that, I mean I macroed it to everything so it went up passively but still... "active" lol.

    I don't know how DK tanks work but Blizzard and many players talk like this is the holy grail of excitement for tanking, the DK's I talk to about it dont sound too enthused or state it requires a ton of active play and thought in all honesty.

    They have dumbed down tanking, my favorite fight to this day is Illidari council you had to avoid death on the ground, from the sky, keep shield block up 24/7, spell reflect 1 spell but eat another and we didn't have big cooldowns except every 10minutes max so room for error was little to none add on to that nearly every boss at that time being untauntable.

    Is there anything in game that is like that now? I haven't seen it for the most part tanking is "pick up add for dps to kill, dont stand in this shit, take hits here, win"

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazar View Post
    What about threat sets? I imagine it being useful for situations like the Alysraszor birds, but I suppose we can leave that idea.
    "Threat sets for Alyzrazor birds" isn't adding hit and expertise for threat its adding for the dmg they aren't increasing our damage by 2/5's just threat so they will still be viable but wearing full avoidance gear I always down my bird so that isnt even an issue.

    I honestly enjoyed tank gearing more too when I did have to have threat stats on my gear and balance them appropriately w/ my mitigation / avoidance stats so as not to throttle DPS but at the same time stay alive.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    What in the world are you talking about? Because I'm talking about why it's way easier for me to tank a 5 man in my 375 raid gear than my buddy who's in 355 heroic gear. Hell before the patch I avoided tanking on my feral druid specifically for this reason (the few times I did it was a nightmare) ... now I'll probably get back at it because I won't have to worry about it so much.
    I found my threat was higher and tanking was easier when I had less gear. I took more damage and inturn had more rage and higher vengence. Now my vengence rarely stacks above 12k AP and my rage bar moves ever so slowly. To counter act this I just tank like 5 mobs at a time.

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