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Thread: Possible 4.3 Threat Changes

  1. #41
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    hmmm. Keeping up your rotation seems like it will only matter for close enrage fights now.
    "The greatest snowball isn't a snowball at all, it's fear"

  2. #42
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    This really isn't directed at the raid tank, this is for 5 mans and the unwashed masses. What I think Blizz is seeing, is that as you increase the stats that increase the dps to deal with the ever increasing mob hp, the average tank in a 5 man isn't keeping up with threat. Overgeared dps v. new tank and new tank is getting shit on. Maybe they could have just tweaked the threat modifiers, but why use a crow bar to open a door when dynomite is so much more effective.

    In the end, I think it will turn out to be much ado about nothing. The game goes on and to keep the franchise going, they need to appeal to the majority.

  3. #43
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    Agree with what Darksend said - the long term changes is what really matters here. The only effect I can see is how this may affect prot pvp in RBG.

    I think the underlying message from GC is that raid mechanics is now FAR more important than individual class/role mechanics - of course this has always been the case since his crusade for homogenization started, but turning threat into a binary option pushed that further.

  4. #44
    Just to clear up some misinformation in here.

    1) Vengeance Cap is (BaseHealth + (0.1 * Stamina))
    2) Vengeance Decay while being attacked is 5% of current Vengeance.
    3) Vengeance Decay while not being attacked is 10% of Max Vengeance reached.
    4) Vengeance "attack" polling is on a 2 second interval, along with each decay.

  5. #45
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    so wait,did they already do the hotfixes? i thought this was a thing that wasnt gonna be put in this week.as far as the threat change thing but i heard some people talkin about firelands trash bein wierd or somethin and apparently a bunch of people were sayin that the hotfixes were put in

    might find me a tank spec for my warrior and try out tankin again and see if i actually like it(i havent tanked since like lvl 20 and im like lvl 76 lol).actually i just found a blue post and it said the change was live,hmmm.im tempted to make a prot spec again on my warrior
    Last edited by PimpJuice4; 08-16-2011 at 07:02 PM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    This really isn't directed at the raid tank, this is for 5 mans and the unwashed masses. What I think Blizz is seeing, is that as you increase the stats that increase the dps to deal with the ever increasing mob hp, the average tank in a 5 man isn't keeping up with threat. Overgeared dps v. new tank and new tank is getting shit on. Maybe they could have just tweaked the threat modifiers, but why use a crow bar to open a door when dynomite is so much more effective.

    In the end, I think it will turn out to be much ado about nothing. The game goes on and to keep the franchise going, they need to appeal to the majority.
    But won't the non overgeared tank be running at High vengeance, whereas the over geared raid tank will have trouble stacking it.

  7. #47
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    This isn't a huge deal. Vengeance already trivialized threat a long time ago. Tanks will still need to follow their rotation since they're doing 1/2 to 2/3 the damage of a damage dealer. Threat isn't a factor for all bosses in firelands - what is a factor is the fight mechanics. You want to afk on shannox... you'll stand in an immolation trap and die (and one can make the same argument for almost all the bosses in firelands).

    What is huge deal is that they're taking an arguably failed mechanic (dk tanking) and deciding to apply it to all tanks. They'll have to nerf boss damage or everyone is in a world of hurt. Right now pallies and druids are picked by the top guilds exactly because of the passive damage reduction.
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  8. #48
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    I don't see this change as anything special.
    First of; The importance of threat was removed a long time ago. We haven't had to fight for threat ever since TBC pretty much - yes, even on trash mobs.
    Secondly; The overall dps of dps classes is and has always been scaling a lot better than the threat of tanks, since threat =/ dps intirely. I could imagine this change being implimented as a preemptive fix for upcomming changes to something perhaps.

    If you're raiding in a successfull guild and you allready have competent dps'ers and tanks, this hotfix won't really change anything for you, other than solid threat being established a few seconds faster than usual and tanks contributing a tiny bit more to overall damage done.

  9. #49
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    So threat will pretty much be a non issue like it was back in Wrath of the Lich King. Personally I liked it when threat was an actual factor back in The Burning Crusade. However things were different back then, there was no DR on avoidance and it was easy to itemize a decent threat set, also DPS was far more aware that they couldn't just nuke things to hell. They had to follow what the tank was attack and so forth since it wasn't really an AoE fest back then.

    WoTLK killed all of that. Cataclysm tried to bring threat back into play, but I personally dont think it worked as intended. First of all mastery is just to good to pass up in exchange for hit and expertise, even back in Wrath you wanted decent threat stats for your normal set. In Cata you complete disregarded it for mastery. This made tanking on a Warrior extremely frustrating since we have problems with initial threat since unlike Paladins we dont start with a full resource bar.

    Overall its a good change but another prime example of how WoTLK killed a good mechanic of TBC that Cata tried to salvage but wasn't able to do. In the end the game just gets easier.

  10. #50
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    I just hope that they get rid of exp/hit on teir gear if they think its soo bad. B4 there really wasnt a need for it now its straight up wasted space.
    "The greatest snowball isn't a snowball at all, it's fear"

  11. #51
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    Pulled, the long term goal is to make exactly those stats, hit and expertise, matter.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrea View Post
    Pulled, the long term goal is to make exactly those stats, hit and expertise, matter.
    And it will be awesome if they get it right. The current environment of Mastery > Parry > Dodge > Str > Stamina > * was exceptionally boring. Honestly I have a custom set for Alysrazor that I've been wearing on every normal mode boss except Ragnaros because then I could at least try and DPS competitively (getting closer to 20k on Domo ... almost *real* DPS numbers). In the end yeah tanks currently have a lot of fight mechanics to worry about which is awesome ... give us a damage reduction game to play for the entire fight instead of TPS game to play for the first 20 seconds and we win.

    That said I have been tanking since vanilla when I used to have to press shield block every 5 seconds as part of my survival rotation ... looks like we're headed right back to where we started
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  13. #53
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    I was going to say, the only time I have trouble with aggro is when someone explodes right off the bat and doesn't let my vengeance stack, but that's only in 5m heroics. I'm not a fan of this. Tanking is learned, not just handed to anyone.

  14. #54
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    might be cool to lower the range on taunt back to the old days to compensate.

  15. #55
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    I find it bizarre that there are players who would complain about a BUFF... what, because it makes their role viable at lower gear and experience levels? Get over yourselves you primadonnas!

    Seriously, tanking is a role that historically has had far too many barriers to entry; its a complete reversal of the DPS role (dont care about damage, encourage mobs to hit you, wtf?) and hence very counter-intuitive, mitigation (the main purpose for a tank) is mostly passive, and the only active part of the role (threat generation) has mainly been resolved by either out-gearing the DPS, forcing them to sit on their hand and not perform their role, or sacrificing mitigation which is again extremely unintuitive for someone new trying to wrap their head around the concept and perform to majority expectations.

    This kind of reminds me of the initial resistance to removing defence from the game... it was another one of those bullshit mechanics whose real purpose (mitigating crits / crushing blows) was never documented in-game in any way, relying on word-of-mouth to give potential tanks the first idea about how to properly itemise, and a major factor in perpetuating the myth that tanks were somehow 'elite players' because they possessed secret knowledge of wow's inner workings.

  16. #56
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    i have been blood tanking for a year now and i like tanking, its not that much of a problem in reg groups but in heroics with the healer and dps have much better gear than i do, even thogh i use a good rotation, i cant keep aggro, at least not all the time, ive learnt to deal with it and buffs to tanking just can take away the challange of tanking, so what if the bad tanks complain, i want to keep the challange and learn from it, i dont give a damn about the winey little crapy tanks and their rotations, i want to learn how to tank better, and the bad tanks should learn from it too insead of NERD RAGING.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefius View Post
    I find it bizarre that there are players who would complain about a BUFF... what, because it makes their role viable at lower gear and experience levels? Get over yourselves you primadonnas!
    It's not a buff, it's a simplification. They specificly said the intent was that they don't want you to care about threat anymore, NOT that it would be easier to get. Basicly once a tank hits it, it should stick to it.
    Imho it takes away one of those multi-tasking challenges I liked about tanking and that makes me angry, as they are removing one of the few challenges left in the game I still enjoy(ed).

    Also, Defense was an extra gearing stat, albeit not optimally suited, they should've only removed the crit portion. By removing it completely they went to a 3-stat focus for tanks, making it rather simple.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefius View Post
    I find it bizarre that there are players who would complain about a BUFF... what, because it makes their role viable at lower gear and experience levels? Get over yourselves you primadonnas!

    Seriously, tanking is a role that historically has had far too many barriers to entry; its a complete reversal of the DPS role (dont care about damage, encourage mobs to hit you, wtf?) and hence very counter-intuitive, mitigation (the main purpose for a tank) is mostly passive, and the only active part of the role (threat generation) has mainly been resolved by either out-gearing the DPS, forcing them to sit on their hand and not perform their role, or sacrificing mitigation which is again extremely unintuitive for someone new trying to wrap their head around the concept and perform to majority expectations.

    This kind of reminds me of the initial resistance to removing defence from the game... it was another one of those bullshit mechanics whose real purpose (mitigating crits / crushing blows) was never documented in-game in any way, relying on word-of-mouth to give potential tanks the first idea about how to properly itemise, and a major factor in perpetuating the myth that tanks were somehow 'elite players' because they possessed secret knowledge of wow's inner workings.
    Sorry but no, Vengeance sorted it out. i have a 346 geared pally tank and it is easier for her to hold aggro in 5 mans than it is for my 378 geared warrior, she takes more damage and her vengeance stacks faster and higher.;She actually rocks with more AP on average. P1 of Venoxis the warrior is struggling to pull 5k dps becuase she's rage starved and vengeance starved the pally can easily pull 8 becuase she's actually tanking damage. The pally can Gear straight mitigation becuase at her gear level, which is appropriate for a troll heroic she get enough vengeance, the warrior whose nearly 2 tier above need to swap in some threat stats. this generally called Gearing for the Encounter and isn't exactly a new development for tanking.

    stop pretending that having a moderatly low gear level stops you tanking, you can tank normal HCs fine with 329 ilvl gear, you can tank ZA fine with 346 gear, the caveat is that you learn how to tank, which isn't hard.

    There's no sense of achievement now. We're bringing guns to knife fights.

    Edit: gearing up tanks are gearing for full mitigation in 353/359 levels and failing to keep aggro becuase their Gearing for the type damage you get in T11hc/T12 content, and becuase 5mans don't ahve that kind of damage they're having trouble keeping aggro, and apparently this means that all tanks threat needs buffing, the situation strieks me as being similiar to A DPS running with 6% hit, and then being suprised when there abilities miss against a raid boss
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 08-18-2011 at 01:25 AM.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    stop pretending that having a moderatly low gear level stops you tanking, you can tank normal HCs fine with 329 ilvl gear, you can tank ZA fine with 346 gear, the caveat is that you learn how to tank, which isn't hard..
    I don't know if this is anecdotal, but I had no issue tanking Zul'Gruub at 346 ilvl, under call to arms satchel conditions (solo LFG queue as the tank)

  20. #60
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    I like this change, just it's a real pity we get to have spectator mode as darksend put it until they deign to change the rest of our mechanics.

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