Retaliation and heroic leap generate disappointing threat

[theodisius]

I am getting used to playing a prot warrior again and reading up on heroic leap and retaliation thought I would try them (separately) on the pull. They seem to promise quick good burst AOE damage, so I thought they might be good for getting threat on a trash group as I understand our threat is now very closely tied to our damage. I used retaliation on the snakes before the ZG penultimate boss and heroic leaped into the last (hard) pull downstairs before the earlier panther boss (Kitara). In both cases, they seemed woeful - I was losing mobs to the dps immediately. This is in contrast to my usual charge/rend/TC/SW openings where I don't usually have problems. Maybe it was just the dps going all out too soon, but has anyone else got some opinion on these two abilities - when, if at all, should we use them?

[wrath555]

I agree to an extent with what you have said, although I must say that I personally find heroic leap to be an invaluable tool for AoE threat. If we are talking about the same pull, I find that heroic leap rapidly followed by a thunderclap and a shockwave makes it almost impossible to lose threat. But yes, by itself heroic leap is a pretty paltry ability for warriors.

On the other hand I find that retaliation does little to secure threat from an overzealous mage or druid. But then again, the main problem here is eager dps and not the move itself.

As for when to use them, I generally use HL when there is a large group of targets together (5+) and I use retaliate when I feel like pushing that extra little bit of dps on trash...

[theodisius]

I find that heroic leap rapidly followed by a thunderclap and a shockwave makes it almost impossible to lose threat. ...

Maybe part of my problem is my starting with rend? Maybe after leaping, I should just instant TC and then SW as you say? That 1.5 GCD after rend can sometimes seem like a lifetime with trigger happy dps. (Plus, unlike with charge, if you leap, you may not be immediately adjacent to a mob to apply rend instantly).

I like the idea of Blood and Thunder, but hate having to use rend as my first opening move to line it up.

[captanmurdoc]

one thing u can do is target the mob you would charge, heroic leap and while in mid-air charge them, u still get the aoe from the heroic leap landing and u get all the benefits from charge, but it puts both on cd so if something does get away from you your gonna be chasing it down on foot

[swelt]

Personally, I do not like heroic leap for pulling. I'd much rather have the benefit of charge rage, and not have to worry about leaping far out of healer range. I'm sure you can make it work if you want, but personally I'd rather stick to a charge->tc->sw or charge->rend->tc->sw opener (with cleaves mixed in if you have the rage). The choice between those two really depends on the size and spread of the pack and how horny your dps are... sometimes I find it safer to wait to apply rend until after the shockwave lands and spread it with the second tc. I have inner rage macro'd into shield block, so when I pop shield block after the shockwave stun wears off, cleave spam becomes an option. I don't think there is a single 'right way' to do this, and the best way will depend on the situation as much as your own technique.

As for when to use those abilities? Heroic leap is absolutely awesome for repositioning and sometimes awesome for avoiding things (like jumping over tornado lines at al'akir or jumping over meatballs at ragnaros). To give a Zul'Aman example, heroic leaping onto the 2nd pack on the way to the dragonhawk and then charging the scout that's hanging behind him is pretty cool. It can also be used as a last ditch survival tool - leaping out of a bosses melee range is a 100% damage reduction cooldown, right? Retal, I'm not so sure about as I've not been super impressed with it. In theory, using it after the shockwave stun wears off in an AOE pull would be good. Don't forget Recklessness, which can be used for some nice bonus threat at the start of a pull provided you are comfortable taking the extra damage... if you have shield block up at the same time, it shouldn't be too risky.

[Tengenstein]

i prefer HL mid charge (inverse of what captanmurdoc suggests), and then shockwave >rend> TC. Tbh i would bother with retaliation unless there where at least 5 mobs meleeing me and even then I'd pop Recklessness first, stack some vengeance thanks to the high damage i takeso each hot of retaliation hits harder/