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[rtm125]

Actually does the movie actually contain the GB commenter at the end and start of the film. Cuse if the film dosnt then I Give you back your 2 points if it does then its a extra -1 for the ending.. imo still a good movie

[Tulireer]

Lore, you completely bypassed the slippery slope of sexism and went down that hill full tilt with your openly hostile remarks about women. Maybe you should define what a "nice" girl is....does she farm mats for the guild bank? Give away free gems and enchants to her guildies? What would a guy have to do to be considered "nice"? Can he just show up on time, pull good dps, earn his WoL rank and go home?

Conversely, if she were to swear and spew profanities like that one fellow did, would she fall crashing off that nice girl pedastal and be considered a bitch? Is he a bastard or a just some hilarious guy?

Female gamers have to deal with the fact that a significant portion of gamer culture is virulently misogynistic. The guild structure can often facilitate a way for like-minded gamers to find each other and group together, reinforcing their negative tendencies. It's unfortunate that this documentary chose to spotlight one of these guilds.

Maybe it isn't the girl gamer that brings the drama, but your views on women.

[Joacimcans]

I watched the blizzcon screening and the latest one and i am kind of suprised that the comments of the girl gamers were there and yet you couldn't fit in the interviews that were on the raid website with various girl gamers even ones not in Months Behind. If KMJ were to make another documentary i would like to see it focus more along the lines of gamers and that they also have lives outside of gaming. I think Julie "fearwards" mentioned that WoW is played by a large cross section of people not just your basement dwelling nerd.

On an off note changing people's perception of what gamers are or do is already starting to happen. In elementary/middle school there were a few of my friends who also gamed and by the time we got to high school we had more people playing with us. and now after college we have even more friends that play. Even some that you wouldn't normally think of playing before hand. A lot of this is happening i think because of the large emphesis of everything being online and computer related. For example my parents don't know the first thing about computers, my older sister is slightly better, I am pretty good with computers, and my younger brother is already learning to use computers at a much younger age than I did.

[Mallok]

Before a bunch of new registrants ruin this thread for everyone, let me say that I enjoyed the film. I remember during my donor year hearing a lot about this during the production and I was glad to have finally seen it completed. I would like to thank all of those involved for making it and especially those for being a part of it.

I have seen it once, and call me crazy, but wasn't there only 8 of 10 raiders featured in the documentary? Was that because the other 2 didn't want to be on camera and all that? just a curiosity thing

I think one of my favorite parts was the clip of Lore saying, "I've tanked this fight like f-ing once, suck my d--" because that's exactly how our Wrath tank would've handled it. It resonated with me and cracked me up. I think the candor was definitely one of the better aspects of the documentary. I found your group to be very similar to ours during those days and we also had 2 females or even 3 on occasion. I don't really care to respond to the new trolls, but I didn't key in on anyone's appearance at all. I thought the language was identical if not tamer than what I've experienced in several raid groups. I do think the editing made hammer seem worse than he probably is to people that don't know him.

Lore made a good point about doing things differently if it were my film and I dont want to nitpick anything. I did think when I started that the focus was to make a film that shows complete non-gamers what raiding is about in terms of the people involved and why they do it. But I didn't feel at the end that this is what was accomplished. I was able to recognize everything in the game since I've been through all the fights and know the game intimately. But I felt like a lot of the content would have only benefitted those in the know already. My interpretation was just that when he set out to make this film he didn't have the perspective enough of a non gamer to fully realize that goal. If that wasn't the goal, it's just a misunderstanding on my end. I was very happy with the production quality and all of that, and even the content, but there needed to be more of it, imo, to reach those outside of our gaming community. I'm only supplying this as an attempt to give helpful feedback and constructive critisicm.

Great job again! I want to end on a positive note, I think this is a great documentary and much better than what I would be able to do if I set out to do it. Thanks for making it!

[Yggdrasil]

Haters gonna hate.While I did think more detail could have been helpful to us avid mmo'ers I think skipping out on tankspot encounter guidebook video mid film was the right call. The people all seemed legit normal gamer folk to me since I can honestly say I have encountered each personality type before plummy of times. Sure they weren't supermodels but yes they were gamers. Over all I feel the film could have used more but still reached all its goals and displayed real feelings about the subject of gaming and showed its social side. If a film reaches it goals it quility and personally I found it enjoyable.

[Laralie]

Definition of an Internet Troll: A member of an internet forum who continually harangues and harasses others. Someone with nothing worthwhile to add to a certain conversation, but rather continually threadjacks or changes the subject, as well as thinks every member of the forum is talking about them and only them. Trolls often go by multiple names to circumvent getting banned.

So for all I have seen here is lively banter, not trolling.

[Laralie]

Lore, you completely bypassed the slippery slope of sexism and went down that hill full tilt with your openly hostile remarks about women. Maybe you should define what a "nice" girl is....does she farm mats for the guild bank? Give away free gems and enchants to her guildies? What would a guy have to do to be considered "nice"? Can he just show up on time, pull good dps, earn his WoL rank and go home?

Conversely, if she were to swear and spew profanities like that one fellow did, would she fall crashing off that nice girl pedastal and be considered a bitch? Is he a bastard or a just some hilarious guy?

Female gamers have to deal with the fact that a significant portion of gamer culture is virulently misogynistic. The guild structure can often facilitate a way for like-minded gamers to find each other and group together, reinforcing their negative tendencies. It's unfortunate that this documentary chose to spotlight one of these guilds.

Maybe it isn't the girl gamer that brings the drama, but your views on women.

[Laralie]

Totally agree with you Tulireer.

[Lore]

Lore, you completely bypassed the slippery slope of sexism and went down that hill full tilt with your openly hostile remarks about women. Maybe you should define what a "nice" girl is....does she farm mats for the guild bank? Give away free gems and enchants to her guildies? What would a guy have to do to be considered "nice"? Can he just show up on time, pull good dps, earn his WoL rank and go home?

Conversely, if she were to swear and spew profanities like that one fellow did, would she fall crashing off that nice girl pedastal and be considered a bitch? Is he a bastard or a just some hilarious guy?

Female gamers have to deal with the fact that a significant portion of gamer culture is virulently misogynistic. The guild structure can often facilitate a way for like-minded gamers to find each other and group together, reinforcing their negative tendencies. It's unfortunate that this documentary chose to spotlight one of these guilds.

Maybe it isn't the girl gamer that brings the drama, but your views on women.

Not going to get dragged into this, since you very clearly just hated the documentary (that's fine) and want to take out that hate on everyone involved (that's not). I said nothing hostile towards women in the slightest, unless you take "sometimes they're really nice, sometimes they're not" as hostile, which is ridiculous. You're also assuming for some reason that I meant "nice" as "gives free handouts all day and works harder than everyone else" which is also ridiculous.

We currently have 3 women on our main raiding roster, all of whom are good players and fun to hang out with, and none of them have been any source of drama. If you choose to believe that I just hate women, then whatever, you're welcome to your opinion. Absolutely not the case though.

[Jamesondrinker]

Was looking forward to this for a while now, and i have to say that it was almost exactly what i expected.

I am really disappointed in the responses here though, while there are some good criticisms, most of them here are just stupid tbh. I do agree that it kind of lost its focus of "these people are raiders, and this is how it affects their life" and sort of turned into "these people raid, and this is they're journey through icc".

One thing i really dont understand is, a lot of people posting here seem to have a personal vendetta with this film and Kevin Michael James, and i just cannot figure out why. Most of these "criticisms" are just bashing on lore and kevin and the raiders personally...which honestly is just trashy.

[Fetzie]

First of all, I enjoyed the documentary.

Lore's women comment: I have to say I have made the same experience. Women gamers seem to be either altogether awesome people and really good at the game, or they are really touchy, flip out at the smallest criticism and generally can't play very well at all. Now, if all you people take from that sentence is that I am a misogynous twat, so be it but that is not what I am (and I am fairly sure that Lore is not one either).

I feel that the Documentary could have gone more into the really competitive nature of WoW and PvE ranking kills. You pretty much only need to watch and listen to the final 5% of, say, Method's Ragnaros heroic kill to get a feeling for the wierd mix of elation, relief and adrenaline rush that a hard-earned boss kill gives. I felt that this was missing in the film (maybe MB doesn't go in for nerd screams as much as other guilds do, I don't know). I know that various top ten world ranked guilds declined to be filmed while raiding (KMJ said so in the pre-show), but I'm sure they wouldn't have minded you using 60 seconds of their boss kill footage.

Overall I would give it 8 points out of ten. Could have been better, but was fairly solid.

[swills]

Lore, you completely bypassed the slippery slope of sexism and went down that hill full tilt with your openly hostile remarks about women. Maybe you should define what a "nice" girl is....does she farm mats for the guild bank? Give away free gems and enchants to her guildies? What would a guy have to do to be considered "nice"? Can he just show up on time, pull good dps, earn his WoL rank and go home?

Conversely, if she were to swear and spew profanities like that one fellow did, would she fall crashing off that nice girl pedastal and be considered a bitch? Is he a bastard or a just some hilarious guy?

Female gamers have to deal with the fact that a significant portion of gamer culture is virulently misogynistic. The guild structure can often facilitate a way for like-minded gamers to find each other and group together, reinforcing their negative tendencies. It's unfortunate that this documentary chose to spotlight one of these guilds.

Maybe it isn't the girl gamer that brings the drama, but your views on women.

This post has to take the cake for being the most ridiculous, idiotic post I've read in this thread.

What defines a "nice" girl WoW gamer, is no different to what defines a "nice" guy WoW gamer. Someone who is considerate, fun, pulls their weight, etc. I have no clue at all where the "Farming mats for the guild bank" bull came from, unless that's your own bias coming through?

What defines a "bitch" is also identical to what defines a "wanker" - someone who causes drama, is generally unpleasant in any manner of ways, is a slacker, etc. Whether they are a guy or girl makes no difference.

The *ONLY* thing Lore stated, was that in his experience girls tend to be at either end of the spectrum. We can infer due to the fact that Lore felt it necessary to identify it as a unique trait amongst WoW girls he has encountered, that he feels that WoW guys in general cover the whole range of the spectrum between "nice" and "wanker".

I have no idea if it is true (I don't think it is myself, I think there are girls across the spectrum just as there are guys), but if that's Lore's experience, then that is his experience. There's nothing "hostile" about it.

Calling him misogynystic for relating his experiences is just ... well, dumb.

[clvsutil]

I was disappopointed because where were these parts???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhFbJBsWMZg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1WadFyLsXE

[Parmenides]

First off, I applaud Kevin for bringing a great idea to fruition. Trying to fit all the complexities of "raiding" into a short documentary is a daunting task, and I enjoyed watching his production.

Despite what some people said above, I didn't think Kevin reinforced any stereotypes about Wow gamers; rather, he covered a much more diverse group than I could have imagined. Different age groups, professions, sexes seemed to be covered here. I'm not sure what Beachbody guilds you guys are in, but I wasn't expecting all post program-P90 users.

That being said, I would have taken the explanation of "Raiding" a step further. I know it was supposed to be an introductory piece, created for non-raiders and even non-gamers (as Darksend stated earlier); however, I think we underestimate what the non-gamer can handle.

I've discussed this game with many non-gamers. We started with the concept of tanks, healers, and dps. Using simple explanations (ie: the tanks try to keep the boss hitting them because they have the most health or armor), these non-gamers picked it up very quickly.

As they would see me playing from time to time, they would ask questions, "What do the tanks have to do here? What do the healers?" And I would give them some simple mechanics of the fight, and they would watch me perform it.

It is this complexity, this involvement, THIS is what attracts people to raiding. This is what convinces people that this is more than a little child's toy, more than something that no man or woman over the age of 12 should be playing.

That's what I missed from the Raid Documentary. For the next ambitious producer in our midst, I'd love to see some basic strategies for each fight and then a raid carrying out those strategies. I don't think this will deter the non-gamer; rather, it will create more appreciation for what we do!

[Darksend]

I was disappopointed because where were these parts???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhFbJBsWMZg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1WadFyLsXE

Those were never intended to be a part of the final film.

Although I believe I heard kevin say they will be on the DVD in full, but I am not 100% sure since he said it right as I was joining the channel.

[rtm125]

So I am still watching it for the first time and honestly the first 30 minutes where crazy boring and I think that whole starting point should have been intertwined somehow into the movie or put at the end but the meat of the film its self really does show was raiding is about in its deeper meanings and not just going home to play a game in a dark corner. To bad the exposure of this film is going to be very limited just like almost all documentary.

Seriously I really need to download this film or buy it so I can send it off my family so they can stfu and stop questioning my tue/thurs/sun nights

Seriously DVD or bootleg.. but just give me a answer please I would very much so like to get this off to my family that I have had to explain what I'm doing when I say I have to raid tonight. So I can stop explaining. NJ again btw.. Anyone that is QQing over any part of this film. I have a couple things to say.

1)any DECENT!! raiding guild I have ever been in uses common swear words and sometimes act like ass hats for enjoyment or out of frustration. I don't like playing hello kitty wow adventures or family wow night mmorpg. Neither of those guild wow spins are even remotely fun to me and like I said before Almost all the guilds Ive been in that gkick for swearing in vent or guild chat have progression equal to the worse guilds on the server. I'm not talking about trolling im talking about ADULT LOUD NOISES!!!!! anyways

2)There is definitely a bias towards women gamers and I think I can safely say that the majority of gamers are guys. As to the skill statement. Its someones personal experience about women gamers that he is refusing too (I agree btw) imo guys are more likely to take something like a wow raiding hobby way more serious then a girl that finds her character pretty and likes taming different pets and so on. There is pro players regardless of there sex. There is just less women then men playing real 3D games period. (Farmville is 2d so it dose not count.. See where im going with that statement?)

3) IS THIS THING OUT ON DVD OR WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

[Sirq]

What I think that 'annoys' people towards this documentary is that it's relatively short for the time it took to create it.
.
The documentary was good and I enjoyed it, but when the credits popped up I was like.. ''wtf, is that it?'' which made me feel a bit...meh.

As I read a couple of comments in this thread I don't think it's gonna be usefull to reply. The documentary fully covers what I feel and have felt like throughout my years of raiding as various tanks and raidleading. The benefits which you can reflect to 'the real life', and of course the social aspect of it, even though your parents don't instantly recognize it.

/not hatin'

[Zerothegreat]

This is not meant to be a Hollywood production. It is a documentary, which is defined as "A movie or a television or radio program that provides a factual record or report". It is not meant to entertain or "cater to a wide audience" - it is meant to show the truth and imo, it hit the nail on the head for many in the community. Maybe it didn't cover everything or every type of raiding guild - but it wasn't meant to do that. I think it accomplishes what it set out to do.

I never said I expected this to be a Hollywood production, let's not go into extremes here and be more rational. I'm going based off what the creator of the film said his intentions of the documentary were and sorta based off all the hype (preview videos etc).

I think he missed his mark with the majority of people he was targeting. I come from a family that doesn't use that type of language so showing them this wouldn't be a good idea for me (maybe I'm just a minority). I think the documentary could have used the time to focus more so on other insights. I'm just giving my feedback and critiquing the negatives. I'm not saying overall it was a horrible film it had some good points.

I think most people was expecting a documentary based more so on the players themselves and why they raid. Not so much on one guild's journey through ICC. Which is a safe assumption based on the preview videos. I think everyone expected more because of that. The final product just went into a completely different direction.

Overall, I'm saying it could have been better done with the amount of effort that was meant to be put in. We all have different opinions that doesn't make us right or wrong. Please try to be mindful of others opinions.

[Trestle]

I cant belive the amount of disrespect for Lore in this thread. I mostly lurk here but I think the people that are quick to jump on the Bash Lore bandwagon are missing the bigger issues of what was said in the film. Yes Lore points out how female gamers are looked at in game by alot of the comunity including many of the female players. However listen to what the Female players in the film say. They talk about how they played else where and how uncomfortable it would feel when playing and not being able to comunicate because most of the young wow players dont know how to handle speaking to female players. But how they found a home with MB because of the family feel they had here.

As for the foul mouth coments, every guild I have ever been in has one or two members that dont have the filter and dont know when to much is to much. To be honest it looked me to me that they took Hours and Hours of webcam footage and edited together a short tirad that made it look much worse since it was a ton of comments in a short period of time.

I did enjoy and respect the work that was put into this project. I commend all involved. It really cannot be easy to let yourself be put out there so much. Lore may do this every week but the rest of the team doesn't. I wish they would have went more into how the wipes build the frustration up on bosses and that is why you get that extreme High when you finally beat it. I just dont think it came across because it really looks like the entire raid was just steamrolled. But in the time span they had for the film I guess its understandable. It was an enjoyable watch.

In closing I want to thank all of the members of the raid team that let us look into that part of life as it happened. I think you all did an outstanding job. It really is a shame that the start of the movie was Lore's hair though.

[Valiar]

Well at start of my post I would like to say sorry to everyone who are going to read this. I do know that my spelling and grammar is bad, however this is one of this things that everyone have opinion and I think everyone should say what they think.


To Lore and too All who thinks that ppl who don't know what a Documentary is or they they don't like this movie should just be quite I will say this. This project will not go unnoticed by larger world, it will not be hidden in World of Warcraft zone only. Without doubt it will be notice and how it shows “our World” is imported to all players. At the same time I think ppl saying "Where did they dig up these people? Real raiders aren't like that. “ you are just idiots, really you are. The raiders who are showed here got more courage then most off men and women on this forum. Do you all think it is easy to take part in a movie, show your life and then get flame on forums.






First, I think this is a bad documentary, because it is too short when you consider the topics it is trying to show and explain what more it don't show reality (it only shows the reality of a small raiding team). Topics like Raiding, Gaming, Addiction, are extremely large and can not be well showed in the time frame this movie has. What more even if this movie would be only about Raiding is would be still too short to show it in a true way. I do understand why all this themes where included (how can you explain raiding without talking about gaming to someone who don't know nothing about it ect) but it make this documentary extremely weak. It don't explain gaming very well (half of the movie talks about it), it don't explain raiding very well, and it talks about addiction like it is normal and it happens with everything (yes it does but still you can not talked about it like something normal). In my opinion this movie should be 3 or 4 times longer and have more ppl in it to be consider a documentary.


To me the Author was satisfied with showing only a small part of raiding in world of warcraft, what more is the fact it shows us only limited amount of players and perspective it dont show us the whole true. Is Lore and his Guild mates Perspective main perspective for the Raiding community ??


Next. Ok who are the players in this movie and why there are so few off them. This is what I got about raiders showed here. They sit, yell and play. It don't show that you go to job, that you got friends, that you got a Cat ect. It shows Yelling very well and siting too. What more use of curses is stupid. Like I said this movie will be seen by a larger world, and yes we curse in game a lot, it doesn't mean the author is free to show only one part off it and later call it a documentary, There are guilds and raids that don't curses but from this movie we get (as all raiders there curse) that every one playing just use the F... word as hello. What more the fact it shows a limited amount of players make it seem even more that ppl playing wow don't have life's. If it showed (I am not saying this ppl have to be a part off this movie) like 40 players saying I am doctor and I am a gamer/Lock/Pally ect it would showed us that playing a game is normal. As it is, it shows us that we are no lifes.


Now Raid itself, Lore I didn't know you could take on ICC with 3 players . It don't show us anything about raids. We don't here 25 men and women on vent, we don't see different perspective ect. What we got is, well I don't know, but I do knot it don't shows us raiding at all.






So fo my finial words(before I get flamed and banned) This is a bad movie, it is too short, the author target I don't know who, it is not a documentary as it don't show the whole perspective and what more it will give gamers a bad rep. If this wasn't called a documentary I could say it is ok, but as a documentary it sucks.


PS. Once more sorry for my poor English and I would like to apologize to anyone whowas offended by this post it was not my purpose.