DK And Druid CTC

[Zee786]

Will blizzard make some way for deathknights and druids to achieve the combat table coverage that paladins and warriors can (102.4%)?I feel that if they do it will make tanking as those 2 classes a little easier,never played a Druid so no idea of the mechanics.

[Darksend]

Druid from armor and stance have about 15-20% passive mitigation more than warriors and paladins. So if a druid takes a full hit ( no savage defense absorb) it will be 15-20% less than an unlocked hit on a warrior or paladin. So once you factor in savage defense and block average damage taken is about equal. Unfortunately healers hate healing druids because of the unpredictable nature of damage taken. Blizzard does not seem to care about spiked damage nor do they seem to understand why healers prefer to heal a tank that takes more overall damage (warriors and paladins).No comment on dks because they are in a really bad place.Personally to fix druid I have said this a number of times ... SAVAGE DEFENSE NEEDS TO BE REMOVED FROM IT'S EXTREMELY HEAVY DEPENDENCE ON VENGEANCE. To many dodges in a row means no vengeance stacks mead bad shields means masters value approaches zero as we increase dodge. And while warriors and paladins havd mastery approach zero as mastery and avoidance increase, they still need x amount of mastery to keep mastery at zero value, while for druid mastery will eventually be worth zero even with zero of it.

[Sebadoh]

Considering Druids and DK's have no CTC from Mastery, no it's not possible.

[Quinafoi]

Considering Druids and DK's have no CTC from Mastery, no it's not possible.

For example, a Night Elf Druid would require about 44,239 Dodge Rating worth of Dodge to have complete combat table coverage... which is an unattainable amount.

[Zee786]

For example, a Night Elf Druid would require about 44,239 Dodge Rating worth of Dodge to have complete combat table coverage... which is an unattainable amount.

I understand that but what I am asking is for opinions on whether blizzard with change the mechanics of dk's and druids a little to allow us to do this. Not if it is posable now

[Darksend]

I feel like you two completely missed the point of the topic. The op knows it is not possible he is asking in a roundabout way how can blizzard make druids and dks more competitive. The only reason druids do so well right now is because we got so much extra stance DR tthis patch, which makes us op until warriors and paladins get full 378 with 1-2 391, at which point the only time a druid is better is if a view did nothing but magic damage for extended periods of time as we have the strongest passive MDR but weakest anti-magic cooldowns.

Stupid slow typing on my phone, did not see the ops reply until after I posted.

[Quinafoi]

Avoidance since it is a 100% avoided attack can't functionally reach the point where all attacks could be avoided. So if they had 50 different types of avoidance they would still need to insure that it wasn't possible to avoid all attacks.

Adding a new variable mitigation type is functionally no different than simply saying the non-block classes can block for a different amount. For example if you say Bears or Death Knights will reduce X% of incoming attacks (increases with mastery) by Y% damage (may or may not increase) then that isn't any different than block except with different percentages.

Blizzard would likely never give Death Knights and Druids a mechanic like this because it's functionally identical to block. Any proposed solution to this problem would be the same result, adding a mechanic that whatever you call it, functions like block (a partial mitigation which can cover the remainder of the combat table not covered by avoidance). So to answer your question of would Blizzard ever do it? No, I doubt they would.

In your question "some way" is the same as "block" whether you realize that truth or not. This is like how they used to separate MP5 form Spirit and finally said to hell with it, they both do the same thing. Anything new that isn't an avoidance but instead is a mitigation method is no different than block.

As for making Druids and Death Knights competitive they will have to do so without the addition of a new mitigation method for those classes. Right now there are two main issues with both Druids and Death Knights, and that is the reliance on damage taken. A Death Knight's healing and shield is porportional to the damage they take. This has an adverse relationship with avoidance scaling as avoiding damage reduces the effectiveness of this. Druids follow similar suit since their shield from Savage Defense scales with damage taken because of how Vengeance interacts with Attack Power. The more damage the Druid takes, the more they sheild themselves for which also has an adverse relationship with avoidance scaling.

How can Blizzard fix the issues?

They need to remodel how both these mechanics of the Druid and Death Knight shield scale such that they are not reliant on damage taken but on raw statistics of the character in general. This would mean significantly less or no variability in the size of the shields, however a much more reliable mechanic which can scale with gear. Also if the results of these shields are more predictable, class balancing is also easier.

[Darksend]

I want to focus on what I think was a key point of yours, that covers the combats table. That is why I think savage defense is close (despite the fact fascist, myself, felhoff and others all predicted this during EARLY ALPHA and being told by blizzard no that will never happen) because it does not cover the combat table and THE UPTIME scales with avoidance. THe problem is effectiveness scales down with avoidance. Increasing the % from ap then not calculating ap from vengeance will go a long way towards fixing that, as you stated.

But still, you cannot ignore healer perception. Fact is a healer would rather heal.a tank with 20% total avoidance and 80% block who takes significantly more damage over a 5-10 minute boss fight than 50% avoidance who doesn't take damage for 10 seconds then guys hit 2-3-4 times in a row. Blizzard DOES NOT consider that when balancing tanks and until that changes druids and dks don't stand a chance.

And yes I do.realize even if the op does not, to the point my previous post had a huge suggestion written out but I deleted it after reading it saying to myself "... Well I just described block ... "

[Theotherone]

Healing wise, I find DK's extremely easy to heal, in fact of all the tanks, I prefer to heal DKs.

Bears are okay, but as someone said very spikey.

I find Pallys to be at the extremes, either extremely easy to heal, or just a royal pain in the ass to keep up.

[Quinafoi]

The key problem is the variability for Druids and Death Knights. The resolution to the problem doesn't need to be add something that isn't variable, like block, so much as reducing the variability in the mechanic that exists today so it is more predictable. They just need to get it off of scaling based on damage taken because you can never rely on how much damage you will take. If they made Savage Defense for example scale off of something simpler like the character's health it scales directly as that character's gear improves. I'm not saying that's the solution, just an example.

The shields generated by Druids and Death Knights should be based more off of the Druid or the Death Knight, than the giant mob smashing them in the face.

At the same time though this has other consequences. For example if it is only based off of the character, then if you overgear or are in older content the sheer scale of the shield could have the same effect as avoidance capping and you litterally take no damage at all.

So they need some kind of creative mechanic which somehow scales with both the character and the mob attacking the character. Sadly, that's what they have today though right now it favors the mob attacking far more than the character. They need to shift the balance in the other direction so it is based more off of the character but still has some dependence on the mob.

[Zee786]

Just so u know I do realise that it would be block and I also realise that what we have now is also effectively block

[Quinafoi]

There is no combat rating which guarentees uptime on Savage Defense, therefore Savage Defense can not provide combat table coverage. So no it is not the same. Block you can increase to the point where you are "unhittable". No matter how high you increase stats such as dodge, hit, crit, and epertise you can never guarentee that Savage Defense would be active for all hits, for example if the boss takes the first swing its not possible for a Savage Defense to already cover that attack however block can. Savage Defense is different from Block because it is not an event which can provide combat table coverage.

[Zee786]

There is no combat rating which guarentees uptime on Savage Defense, therefore Savage Defense can not provide combat table coverage. So no it is not the same. Block you can increase to the point where you are "unhittable". No matter how high you increase stats such as dodge, hit, crit, and epertise you can never guarentee that Savage Defense would be active for all hits, for example if the boss takes the first swing its not possible for a Savage Defense to already cover that attack however block can. Savage Defense is different from Block because it is not an event which can provide combat table coverage.

Thats why I said effectively not exactly and as I said in the op I don't know much about Druids.

[Quinafoi]

And your last post completely disagrees with your original post, hence the correction.

[Zee786]

And your last post completely disagrees with your original post, hence the correction.

I'm sorry? I don't see how it disagrees with the op

[Quinafoi]

Will blizzard make some way for deathknights and druids to achieve the combat table coverage that paladins and warriors can (102.4%)?

This statement is in direct conflict with this other statement...

and I also realise that what we have now is also effectively block

You first post says Druids and DKs can't have combat table coverage. And then you say their shield is the same as block, it's not. Those two statements are in direct conflict. Not all mitigation methods are the same. The Druid and DK shields do not provide combat table coverage where as block does.

I corrected you because you disagreed with yourself.

[Quinafoi]

You were asking... will Blizzard add a "block" to Druids and DKs? Then later you are saying they already have a "block". It is a mitigation method yes, however it is not one that provides combat table coverage. It is not the same thing.

[swelt]

It is not helpful to look at this problem so close to one precise aspect of combat mechanics. You need to take a step back. Keep in view that how you tune tank avoidance and mitigation changes how healers play their game. If people are consistantly saying that 'druids and DKs are spikey and harder to heal' and 'shield tanks take consistent damage and are easier to heal' the question becomes 'which of these two models is better for the game', not necessarily 'lets make druids and dk's like paladins and warriors'.

In it's simplest form, what each class has is some kind of mechanic which reduces the damage of 'regular boss melee swing' by a variable amount. The problem is that 'variable' has become 'constant' for paladins and in a similar but different way, warriors. For druids, if I understand it right, it's half way between - the variable mechanic being a bit unstable but the passive stance damage reduction is constant. For death knights, it's just really wierd and compounded by the shield and self healing components being tied to player skill, timing and rotation impacting situational factors.

I think Blizzard dropped the ball when they decided not to do the 'boss expertise' thing that they talked about at Blizzcon. Shield tanks achieving full CTC is the problem that should be addressed (by which I probably mean nerfed), before working out whether ferals and DKs need to be buffed. These are problems with gear/stat scaling that would have been averted if you needed a bit more dodge/parry/etc to avoid a '2nd raid tier boss'. I can see that it'd cause them a lot of other balancing problems (how to ensure that it effected each class evenly for one).

[Zee786]

I'm sorry if I was not clear but what u said is what I ment as in I am asking if blizzard will make this mechanic able to CTC by changing it slightly or by changing it altogether

[Zee786]

It is not helpful to look at this problem so close to one precise aspect of combat mechanics. You need to take a step back. Keep in view that how you tune tank avoidance and mitigation changes how healers play their game. If people are consistantly saying that 'druids and DKs are spikey and harder to heal' and 'shield tanks take consistent damage and are easier to heal' the question becomes 'which of these two models is better for the game', not necessarily 'lets make druids and dk's like paladins and warriors'.

In it's simplest form, what each class has is some kind of mechanic which reduces the damage of 'regular boss melee swing' by a variable amount. The problem is that 'variable' has become 'constant' for paladins and in a similar but different way, warriors. For druids, if I understand it right, it's half way between - the variable mechanic being a bit unstable but the passive stance damage reduction is constant. For death knights, it's just really wierd and compounded by the shield and self healing components being tied to player skill, timing and rotation impacting situational factors.

I think Blizzard dropped the ball when they decided not to do the 'boss expertise' thing that they talked about at Blizzcon. Shield tanks achieving full CTC is the problem that should be addressed (by which I probably mean nerfed), before working out whether ferals and DKs need to be buffed. These are problems with gear/stat scaling that would have been averted if you needed a bit more dodge/parry/etc to avoid a '2nd raid tier boss'. I can see that it'd cause them a lot of other balancing problems (how to ensure that it effected each class evenly for one).

I see how it can be a problem with people not liking the spikey nature of dk/Druid tanking (although I have never played a Druid) and although I will say they should change it, I enjoy tanking on my dk more than my pally and warrior it's more immersive.