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Thread: Treat T12 Normal like Heroic? Stamina is more valuable until we get more gear?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by theodisius View Post
    Can you link a gear set that shows this? My calculations suggested that's true for my pally but I can't see it holding for a warrior.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...trucker/simple

    With Mastery food/elixers and raid buffs im running at 98.47/102.4 unhittable
    A second mastery trinket (Mirror of Broken Images) raises it by about 2.69%. 101.16

    On rawr, just upgrading my leggings and gloves to the 378 tier 12 ones will make me unhittble.
    Addon Author: What's Next? - AllPlates - Sudoku - Death Clock - Super Loot

  2. #62
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    earlier it was said there is "only one mastery tank trinket"
    to me its clear that this trinket is for tanks http://www.wowhead.com/item=69002 non of the new procs from trinket are in any way sexy so atm im using this trinket with the spider boss trinket for the mastery stats. swaping in mirror for specific bosses.

  3. #63
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    It may be because I do 10 man heroic primarily now but I can't really find anything good to replace my Lifebound Alchemist Stone with as the combination of Stam and Mastery is incredible vs just ditching it for one of the full stam alternatives or the dodge alternative. That + the Spidersilk Spindle is just too nice.

    Its just hard to justify losing 253 mastery for 195 stamina or 253 mastery and 380 stamina for 230 dodge and 153 mastery.

  4. #64
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    Why you want alot of health for Shannox 25: arcing slash hits for ~80k, melee is also ~around 80K, these can happen at the SAME time, while these huge spikes are happening you have jagged tear bleeding you for an additional 2.5k every 3 seconds per stack, which in the best cast scenario will only go as high as 3, meaning that in order to not be insta gibbed like good ol'Gormok used to do you need a minimum of >167.5k healthm if your healers perform flawlessly. Logan (and I presume the vast majority of tanks) prefer to give healers as much breathing room as they can.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein
    arcing slash hits for ~80k, melee is also ~around 80K
    Whoa, those are some mighty powerful tildes you have there. Melee comes nowhere near that amount. Arcing slash maybe once or twice during the fight after Riplimb is down (when all healers should be focused on you anyway).

    His melee doesn't hit any harder in 25 than it does in 10. The Arcing Slash difference is significant, but it's not 80k and it's easily healable.

    If you're losing tanks to "really huge spikes" it's because they stepped on an Immolation trap. That's really the only explanation.

    these can happen at the SAME time
    Also not true. It's either melee or Arcing Slash. He doesn't do both at the same time.
    Last edited by Kerchunk; 09-09-2011 at 01:41 PM.

  6. #66
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    Our bear was taking 75-77k hits & arcing slashes on 25 HC tengenstein is correct, don't come in here spreading misinformation if your doing 10man normal modes (no offense)

  7. #67
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    Given this was about 25m normal... I went and dug up a parse on WoL from a top 50 DPS parse, so it may not be perfect, but here ya go...

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...2/?s=138&e=529

    Avg. Melee is 64k on a wartank - that's after block, not before.
    Arcing slash is 94k avg.

    25m normal shannox hits like a truck, especially after both dogs are dead and melee and arcing slash can overlap within fractions of a second. Add in jagged tear on top of that...
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  8. #68
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    When we did first time Shanox HC I had almost 0 gear from FL raids (25 raid ).There was spikes but when we figured when they happen ,there was no issue.After he throw spear and when you kite ,first hit that he lands on tank will be dot+mele and possible slash.That is what cds are for,and you get trough with no problems.First boss in ToC had same mechanic so nothing new.If raid is doing properly their tasks he is most of time without spear so his dmg is going down as fight progress,cause his timer for spear throwing is lower as fight progress.

    But he is only boss in FL that is sometime scary for tank.Rest is rly non issue .In raids I am never over 200 k hp as warrior and that is rare,I didnt do one raid with 2x stam triknets.
    Last edited by Peca; 09-12-2011 at 12:01 AM.

  9. #69
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    I've tanked both normal and heroic in both 10 and 25 man. The burst damage is really only a scary factor of 25 man and it's almost a non-issue in 10 hc (it absolutely is a non-issue in 10 normal). If you've only done 10 man, you need to understand that 25 man has 'burst damage on tank' as an extra element in the encounter design. That's not a big problem, as 25 man raids have that many more healers to handle it, but it certainly is an encounter feature that 25 man raids have to deal with which 10 man raids do not. Tanks in both raid sizes should look to have a few more hp (e.g. 1 or 2 stam trinkets) than they would for most other T12 encounters.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad View Post
    Our bear was taking 75-77k hits & arcing slashes on 25 HC tengenstein is correct, don't come in here spreading misinformation if your doing 10man normal modes (no offense)
    Well the topic and discussion are around 25 NM, not HM so don't come in here spreading irrelevant information if you're not paying attention, etc., etc. (no offense).

    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    Given this was about 25m normal... I went and dug up a parse on WoL from a top 50 DPS parse, so it may not be perfect, but here ya go...
    Not trying to be argumentative, but it seems like you went through the effort of finding a fight in which Rageface was killed incredibly early (2m46s) and the time it took the raid to down Shannox after the 2nd dog is really long (1m16s). This means Shannox had 30% enrage for 2m29s and a 60% enrage for 1m16s for a total of 3m45s of intense damage.

    The "Burn Rageface immediately" strategy is good for learning the fight and downing 10 NM, but clearly not ideal for 25 and certainly not for HM.

    Check out a parse in which Rageface was kept alive until it was time to kill Riplimb; you can see that not only is Shannox gimped (29K average melee, 48K average Arcing Slash), but the entire fight is made much less damage intensive - 58.6K DTPS versus a whopping 76K DTPS. As long as Facerage is dealt with - which should not be a problem given the available DPS in 25M - this is your ideal strategy. In this parse, Shannox is enraged for a paltry 0m47s - a full 2m58s less than your parse.

    So, it might be wise to adjust your strategy as opposed to fumbling around trying deal with the massive spikes and re-gearing your tanks for a single encounter. But, that's just my advice; I don't want to go spreading any more misinformation or anything.
    Last edited by Kerchunk; 09-12-2011 at 06:52 AM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerchunk View Post
    The "Burn Rageface immediately" strategy is good for learning the fight and downing 10 NM, but clearly not ideal for 25 and certainly not for HM.

    So, it might be wise to adjust your strategy as opposed to fumbling around trying deal with the massive spikes and re-gearing your tanks for a single encounter. But, that's just my advice; I don't want to go spreading any more misinformation or anything.
    Actually, I just looked for lower end top parses to avoid pure cheesing mechanics and then US servers so I could read the debuffs.

    As for Rageface burning not being viable for 25m - I don't see why not - you ignore him other than breaking on heroic, so keeping him up doesn't really 'teach' you anything since you have DPS on him anyway (more than just to break him) so you kill both dogs between 30.1 and 35% on Shannox.

    We found it a far more effective strat on 25m, simplifying the fight tremendously - and is actually more similar to 25m - where you only have 1 or 2 DPS on him the entire time.

    ****

    And further to the point - tank gear is still primarly surviving a 'worst case' scenario - same as in WotLK - it's just that the 'worst case' is far less worse (compartively) than in WotLK where you were trying to turn 1 shot into 2 shot into 3 shot. This is still the only fight I've tanked where I felt like pure EHP would be valuable rather than having 'enough' EHP from gear and focusing on smoothing incoming damage after that.

    So it really wouldn't matter if the near 1-shot effect happened for 2/3rds of the fight or 1/3 of the fight - if it can happen - you still need to gear for it or hope it doesn't happen. But it isn't as bad as it seemed - once you get the mechanics down, it's not at tough as it seemed at first.

    Though just to be safe, have your bear tank him
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis
    As for Rageface burning not being viable for 25m - I don't see why not
    We're discussing huge hits, spikey damage and major problems keeping tanks alive to the point of considering new itemization strategies. I think this entire thread is a big "why not," isn't it? If the problem in question was fight complexity (too much movement, losing DPS to Rageface, etc.) then we could suggest complexity reduction measures like killing Rageface sooner. But, if the problem at hand is "too much damage on the tank" then surely the obvious solution is one that cuts outgoing tank damage by 30-40% outright.

    If your raid is to the point gear/experience wise where it's irrelevant, that's fine for you - but clearly the OP and others haven't reached that point yet. Adjusting their strategy to leave Rageface alive longer is probably going to be a lot easier than "fixing" their tanks through re-itemization or some such nonsense.

    So it really wouldn't matter if the near 1-shot effect happened for 2/3rds of the fight or 1/3 of the fight - if it can happen - you still need to gear for it or hope it doesn't happen.
    Cannot possibly disagree with you more on a very fundamental level! Basic raiding strategy (and indeed basic math) calls for reducing the amount of time spent in dangerous phases whenever possible through mechanics, Bloodlust/Heroism, personal cooldowns, etc. Every time the "near 1-shot effect" triggers there's a chance the tank will die. Fewer effects = fewer chances = fewer actual deaths.

    In this case it's not 1/3 vs. 2/3 but more like 15% of the fight vs 66% of the fight... pretty significant difference. As you say, tanking is about avoiding the "worst case scenario." If you can make it so that worst case scenario isn't even possible for 85% of the fight... what better survival technique can you ask for?

    Take an analogy: you have 100 miles to drive and two possible routes. The first route is 85% highway and 15% rickety wooden bridge. The second route is 33% highway and 67% rickety wooden bridge. While on the highway, you have a 1 in 10,000 chance per mile of dying in an accident. While on the bridge, you have a 1 in 100 chance of dying per mile.

    Shouldn't be surprising that you have an 85% chance of surviving the first route while the second route only gives you slightly better than a coin toss. Sure, you can take steps to make the second route safer like airbags and seatbelts, but why fuss when you could just stay on the highway in the first place?

  13. #73
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    Spikey damage on the tank in 25 man Shannox is an issue *before* rageface dies. Once rageface is dead, the healers that were covering the rageface target are free to heal the tank and without interruption from facerages, which more than compensates for the minor damage uplift. It's not an unmanageable issue by any means, but it is a factor that 25 man raid groups need to factor into their strategy. Blizzard do this to give healers in the larger raid size something to keep them challenged, because otherwise this fight would be boring for healers. In 10 man, healers are already stretched enough covering the 2 tanks + the rageface victim.

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