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Thread: Treat T12 Normal like Heroic? Stamina is more valuable until we get more gear?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crittable View Post
    Why is it that you take 6 arcing slashes over 100k and Beldin only takes 1?
    Part of it is until I died closed to the end, I took all the frenzies. I'm thinking part of it is I may not have kept demo shout up. That woudl be a 10% reduction. And I know demo fell off as I lagged out for ~60 seconds towards the end, in the P2 phase. So part of it is probably not having CDs due to lag and part of it was demo fallng off and part of it was taking most of the 1 and 2 stack of frenzy I guess.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  2. #22
    Did it 10man. At the beginning was trapped due to the fact that's my orc feet are the same size as the traps and yes - had tough time and started thinking that I need more stamina. But after I began moving more, well, PVP like - a bit left, a bit right, forward, back and so on - I saw all traps very clearly and just waited for Hurl Spear to check how many Jagged Tear stacks I have and do I need to kite the boss a bit to wear it off. In this way it's clearly mastery fight, and ph 2 is ok with cds - survived till the end with quite a good health.

  3. #23
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    From what we've been through on 10 man, I don't feel like I'm taking huge hits. I've died (plenty) but it always seem that the "burst" comes in form of rapid attacks, and as such more likely to be reduced by mitigation. (as in avoidance + block, not sure what the expression is).
    Generally I can echo what everyone else has said, don't stand in stuff and generally follow fight mechanics and I don't see the need of a larger healthpool yet. (mind you, this is 10 man normal...)

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad View Post
    It should be tuned for 359 gear so i doubt we'll need to stack stam for normal modes, assuming we have a few pieces of 372. Might help if you mess up on new mechanics. Going to raid it tonight myself so i'll see if there is any spikedamage that makes me uncomfortable.
    I think this is important: the damage is tuned within expected gear margins, but lots of people are at different gear levels.

    If you are in full T11 heroic gear, you are already above the entry level and in the comfortable level for doing these bosses. Even the first bosses in the instance should be tuned with your current base stamina pools in mind. Hence Darksend doing it 'in dps gear' (which is also influenced by him being feral, so getting a lot more benefit from dps stats in survival). On the other hand, if you are coming into this content with full t11 NORMAL gear, then I think it's entirely likely that Blizzard will have expected you to gem/enchant/gear around high stamina. I'm not talking WOTLK-style blue stam gems in every slot, but quite possibly double stam trinkets and stam/hybrid gemming etc. Entry level doesn't mean "I can walk in with T11 normal and it'll be easy", it's tuned to be hard for you at the start and become easier as you get upgrades inside the instance.

    I certainly experienced the 'arcing slash + dot tick + melee swing' virtual instagib. I don't know if this is more of a 25 than 10 man thing? It may also have been a demo shout lapse, I certainly made sure it never dropped off after that and didn't have the same problem again.

  5. #25
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    so how are u guys gearen for rag then. atm i am mastery parry dodge stam but seem to haven a lil trouble stayen up.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    I think this is important: the damage is tuned within expected gear margins, but lots of people are at different gear levels.

    If you are in full T11 heroic gear, you are already above the entry level and in the comfortable level for doing these bosses. Even the first bosses in the instance should be tuned with your current base stamina pools in mind. Hence Darksend doing it 'in dps gear' (which is also influenced by him being feral, so getting a lot more benefit from dps stats in survival). On the other hand, if you are coming into this content with full t11 NORMAL gear, then I think it's entirely likely that Blizzard will have expected you to gem/enchant/gear around high stamina. I'm not talking WOTLK-style blue stam gems in every slot, but quite possibly double stam trinkets and stam/hybrid gemming etc. Entry level doesn't mean "I can walk in with T11 normal and it'll be easy", it's tuned to be hard for you at the start and become easier as you get upgrades inside the instance.

    I certainly experienced the 'arcing slash + dot tick + melee swing' virtual instagib. I don't know if this is more of a 25 than 10 man thing? It may also have been a demo shout lapse, I certainly made sure it never dropped off after that and didn't have the same problem again.
    I think ultimately this is what I was trying to figure out. I have a few T11 H tank pieces, but I was nowhere near full T11 and the incoming hits and not fully understanding the fight made me wish for more stamina so if I made 1 mistake it wasn't a wipe.

    I'm not at the point yet that I feel comfortable with my health pool - so I think I am going to go back to stam-centric gemming. I figure by the time I have 3 or 4 T12n drops, I'll be swapping back to the mastery-centric gemming philosophy until such a time as I can hit 102.4 or T13 drops. By then I'll have the stamina of a full T11 heroic tank and be far more comfortable (yes, 20-30k is enough I think to make the burst damage comfortable, especially with the increased understanding of the fights that will occur every week).
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  7. #27
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    I'm mostly in 359s, got a few easy to aquire 4.2 bits, i'm gemming mastery centric, got one stam trink, the worm, and i'm not having too many probems with Shannox's damage. Running about 80% blockvoidance and i'm actually considering swappina few threat peices to shorten the fight. Getting roflstomped by his 10 minute enrage

  8. #28
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    If you honestly think that it's safer to get a few thousand extra stamina over the extra mitigation you're out of your mind. I generally tank with mastery/resistance elixirs for that very same reason.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I'm mostly in 359s, got a few easy to aquire 4.2 bits, i'm gemming mastery centric, got one stam trink, the worm, and i'm not having too many probems with Shannox's damage. Running about 80% blockvoidance and i'm actually considering swappina few threat peices to shorten the fight. Getting roflstomped by his 10 minute enrage
    10 or 25?
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  10. #30
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    10 man.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    10 man.
    I think that's part of it. Reev and I went around on this yesterday, it looks like 25m damage is 50% greater or more. The incoming hits Reev and Ion talked about were far less than the ones our logs showed. Which makes sense, 25m has more healing there. But it does have bigger hits based on what they said about their hits.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    I think that's part of it. Reev and I went around on this yesterday, it looks like 25m damage is 50% greater or more. The incoming hits Reev and Ion talked about were far less than the ones our logs showed. Which makes sense, 25m has more healing there. But it does have bigger hits based on what they said about their hits.
    Still sounds like a bug to me...your hits were literally TWICE the size of the ones we saw. I'm EXTREMELY doubtful that's working as intended. I mean, it makes SOME sense that you'd take a bit bigger hits, just because yeah, you've got more healers and it's not like there's much healing going on other than tanks (Rapeface aside). But to suggest that it'd be so different that you'd actually have to change your gearing between 10 and 25 because of it seems dubious to me.

  13. #33
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    1% dodge = 8000hp worth of gems. Ask yourself, what percentage of boss damage is magic/unavoidable physical? Did having 5% dodge and 40k less hp really help me and not make me easier to kill? Ok obviously if you're a paladin you get block capped, and a warrior will eventually want to aim for it too, but as early as requiring you to use avoidance trinkets and full mastery gems.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    But to suggest that it'd be so different that you'd actually have to change your gearing between 10 and 25 because of it seems dubious to me.
    I was discussing exactly this with a healer yesterday. We'd done the same fights in 10 and 25 man versions, we were talking through the differences. The big spike damage on Shannox was a feature in the 25 man that simply wasn't there in the 10 man... but they didn't see it as a problem because with 6-7 healers they had the tools to handle it. That however sets up the potentially controversial situation you allude to: if 'big spike damage on tanks' is only going to be a feature in 25 man raiding, tanks may to have to gear differently for the different raid sizes, different tank classes may be better or worse suited to different raid sizes, etc. Nightmare waiting to happen. On the other hand, if they don't have this kind of thing, the healers in 25 man will get an easy ride... and the healing in 10 man is challenging in other ways.

    It's probably far too soon to make a song and dance about it. Things don't need to be identical across the raid sizes, just broadly equivalent in terms of challenges, but I do think it's a potentially dangerous trend.

  15. #35
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    When Blizzard announced the changes for Cataclysm, one of the points they made was that they intended to have less of a gap between the health pools of tanks and healers/dps and to have tanks focus more on avoidance than health, with the exception being DK tanks, who's mastery is directly linked to their health.

    As a DK tank in 10 man content, I found that with the minimal amounts of inherent avoidance, it is best to stack stamina for gems followed by mastery and not worry about avoidance at all, since you wont be able to get it high enough to matte like pallies and warriors can. Fully raid buffed I get to 206k hp with all 359+ gear (with the exception of a 346 trinket), at the same time having 118% mastery, and I can keep myself up rather well with the combination of self-heals and the mastery absorption shield. The shields from mastery alone are 30-50% of the damage done by a raid boss in 10 man (depending which boss), with a slightly smaller amount of self healing, which equals near 100% of the amount of damage mitigated or healed, essentially making the previous hit null (the same basic benefit of a dodge or parry). When taking into account not only the amount of self-healing done by death strike, but also the increased amount of the shield from blood mastery, stamina is by far the best stat for DK tanks.

    On the other hand, on my paladin tank I choose to stack mastery followed by dodge/parry since they don't really have much that is based off of their health pools other than the size of hits they can take, and the reduced overall damage is easier on the healers. In essence, the stam stacking for DK's and the avoidance stacking for other tanks does the same thing by reducing the overall dmg taken by that tank.

    With the changes to healer mana from WotLK to Cataclysm, the ideal tank is no longer "He with the Biggest Health Pool", but rather the tank that can mitigate the incoming damage in order to need the least amount of heals and thus save the healers' mana for the length of the fight. In the end, stamina for DK's and avoidance for pallies/warrs/druids ends up creating about the same ammount of damage mitigation (or mitigation/healing for DK's), but if you were to reverse the stat priorities none of them would last in a longer fight because they would drain their healers' mana too quickly by taking the large hits more often rather than a lot of small hits and a couple big ones.

    As for the Shannox discussion, I tanked Riplimb at max range with a beacon on me while a paladin tanked Shannox for the entire fight. We both geared the ways I described, and neither of us had trouble staying alive stacking stats for damage mitigation for each of our classes.

  16. #36
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    Hay - as we've seen in the discussion (and Swelt pointed on explicitly) there seems to be a signficant difference between 10m and 25m tank damage - and while block tanks gearing for block capped (unhittable) is usually the best way to go, the question is, in 25m, with the amount of unavoidable damage coming in coupled with the large but mitigatable damage, is it better right now, if you're not in full 372 heroic gear (which would probably give you sufficient stamina) to gem stamina in order to make sure you can take those large hits.

    Shannox is a great example, even with good clearing of the jagged tears, in 25m on our kill, we were seeing arcing slashes hitting for over 100k regularly with 2 stacks of frenzy, buffeted on both sides by multiple normal melee attacks that could hit 80k if unblocked.

    My experience, and what has prompted this thread, is the question, in 359 gear (and only in 25m it appears) - does it feel like healers mana isn't the issue, but having a large enough pool of HP to take the hits and live is?
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  17. #37
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    If you are going to be taking hits for 100k and 80k close together plus a DoT for easily 20k per 3 seconds, that comes to 200k damage, and you won't realistically be able to get enough hp to survive that much un-mitigated damage.

    However, if you are a paladin with roughly 50% block, you will have about 2150 mastery to get there. If you trade that mastery point-for-point you will get an hp increase of about 30k.

    I'll leave out the on paper work from the post, but doing some math based on the stacking DoT in 25 man and the melee swings being able to hit for 80k un-mitigated with 60% increased damage, I came out with an increase of 220k damage taken in a 30 second period from the start of phase 2, with an increase of 83k during the last 10 seconds, which is an additional 8.3k heals per second that would need to be directed away from the raid and onto the tank.

    So theory-wise, block > stam by virtue of shear numbers where the damage taken is too great to equal the benefit of the health increase. But, of course, in practice I could be wrong XD
    Last edited by Haydelars; 07-05-2011 at 03:24 AM. Reason: Grammatical

  18. #38
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    Shannox is a bit spiky but some of the spikes can be predicted when spear is returned to shannox or when riplimb gets the OT after being trapped. Was tanking riplimb on 25man myself with 1 healer on me it was a bit tricky but with 2 healers i was completely fine. Didn't feel like i needed to gem stamina but already at 188k raidbuffed so overgearing it a little bit. Bethilec doesn't seem to require stamina just coordinate on vent that the healers follow you up and in p2 cycle a few cds at the end. Same goes for rhiolyth, only the big add with too much volcano debuffs hurt.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haydelars View Post
    If you are going to be taking hits for 100k and 80k close together plus a DoT for easily 20k per 3 seconds, that comes to 200k damage, and you won't realistically be able to get enough hp to survive that much un-mitigated damage.
    I'm comfortably above 200k raid buffed with stam flask in my max stam set and that's without much T12 gear. Add in some disc shield and the like and that kind of spike is survivable. Not that I think Shannox actually spikes quite that hard if you are doing it right, but not far off either.

    But like I said, I think it's way too early to draw long conclusions about how 10 and 25 man damage profiles might be diverging... something to keep in view when heroic modes roll around.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haydelars View Post
    If you are going to be taking hits for 100k and 80k close together plus a DoT for easily 20k per 3 seconds, that comes to 200k damage, and you won't realistically be able to get enough hp to survive that much un-mitigated damage.
    See, that's where I disagree with you. Here are the baselines:
    1. I'm a warrior, I can't eliminate unblocked hits (if I could there's no question I'd pump mastery and hit 102.4, but I can't hit that yet, I'm still in the 80s - not counting using SB on near CD on this fight since the pressure is pretty consistent, you're getting spikes fairly frequently).
    2. The hardest hitting phase the tank also gains a healer. So the raw amount of green numbers coming in are substantinal, if I can guarantee that I can multiple hit string.
    3. Since I can't eliminate bad hit strings then stamina has more value when it comes to bad hit strings. Most of the fight I won't be in danger of dying, it's really a bad string of unblocked attacks (and obviously undodged/unparried) that concerns me. I don't feel I have that margin of error I'm used to having.

    The entire philosphy of the mastery-centric gear design for block tanks is the hits aren't big enough that you're ever in danger of being 3shot. 2 unblocked hits + arcing slash with a 60% attack speed debuff comes pretty damn close to pulling the rug out from under that party. T11 had mostly instant-kill mechanics (mangle if rodeo failed, break + double attack, etc, etc) and steady, but not extreme incoming damage. T12, 25m, feels much more consistent in heavy damage than T11 did, even when looking at the incoming damage in hard modes (granted we were only 5/13, so there may be some fights I didn't see where that wasn't the case).

    Quote Originally Posted by Haydelars View Post
    So theory-wise, block > stam by virtue of shear numbers where the damage taken is too great to equal the benefit of the health increase
    Basically, I agree with this in terms of a steady press of damage, but the other factor to block gearing is that healer mana is constrained, so less required healing + little chance of 2 or 3 shot makes block-centric work and very, very effective. In 25m, I've never heard our healers complain about Mana unless they died and were ressed - but I've seen huge and rapid hits.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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