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Thread: Prot War - Which cloak for T12 content?

  1. #1
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    Prot War - Which cloak for T12 content?

    I don't pay too much attention to gear on the PTR's - a lot of times it changes before live, so I don't see much point to getting all worked up about the new gear when its available on PTR. So with that in mind, I hadn't looked at the gear released in 4.2 too much. So last night, when my guild went into Firelands to start on Shannox and I got to Friendly with the Avengers of Hyjal, I was kind of shocked to see that my new cloak for T12 content... kinda sucks. I'd already picked up the Mantle of Patience from the Thrall questline earlier that day and equipped that over my Wrap of the Great Turtle (my guild didn't kill Heroic Al'Akir), and looking at it, I'm not entirely convinced that the Hyjal rep cloak is actually an upgrade. Here's what Vexryn's Tank Gear List shows for Cloak choices for now:

    [378] Durable Flamewrath Greatcloak – Reputation – Avengers of Hyjal: Friendly – Parry/Hit
    [372] Permafrost Cape (Heroic) – Drop – Throne of the Four Winds: Al’akir (Heroic) – Random (tank) enchantment
    DARKRAWR NOTE: Permafrost cape can come in Bouldercrag (143 Dodge/ 143 Parry) or in Rockslab (143 Mastery / 143 Dodge)
    [365] Mantle of Patience – Quest – Firelands: The Vow – Dodge/Mastery
    So like I said, I'm currently wearing the Mantle of Patience. I'm figuring out my avoidance with the below quoted macro from another thread that I've lost track of. Here's what my avoidance numbers come out to, unbuffed standing in Stormwind:

    /run b=GetBlockChance() d=GetDodgeChance() p=GetParryChance() m=5 if UnitRace("player")=="Night Elf" then m=m+2 end a=m+d+p+b DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(a.."% Avoidance")
    Mantle of Patience = 83.9234% Avoidance
    Durable Flamewrath Greatcloak (pre-reforge) = 83.1221% Avoidance (loss of 0.8013% avoidance, gain of 40 Stamina)
    Durable Flamewrath Greatcloak (Parry -> Mastery) = 83.4926% Avoidance (loss of 0.4308% avoidance, gain of 40 Stamina)

    Looking at this, I'm not sure that I believe the loss of 0.43% avoidance is worth the 40 stamina gain. At best, I'm thinking its a wash. These numbers might be slightly off from what the final product would be - the cloak has so much parry on it, that it puts my Parry a full 2.5% ahead of my Dodge, and as a prot warrior, I want to have about 2% more Parry than Dodge, so I'd maybe reforge another 0.5% back into dodge from parry. I can't see that being a very significant overall avoidance gain though, so we're still talking 0.4% avoidance loss, to gain 40 stamina. Is that really an upgrade? I don't think it is.

    On top of that, this difference would be even bigger with the Permafrost Cape off of Al'Akir - particularly a Rockslab (dodge/Mastery) cloak. Unfortunately I can't actually tinker with the numbers on a Permafrost Cloak, as I don't have one, but if anyone out there could, I'd be curious to hear your results. I just can't see the Durable Flamewrath Greatcloak being better than Permafrost at all, and not more than very marginally better than the Mantle of Patience.

    Does anyone out there have some sort of thoughts otherwise on the cloaks available to prot warriors (specifically prot warriors, as we value parry more than our paladin counterparts) or on how the cloaks should be ordered?

  2. #2
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    :-/ It's not letting me insert links for the actual items, so here they are:

    Durable Flamewrath Greatcloak: http://www.wowhead.com/item=70930
    Permafrost Cape: http://www.wowhead.com/item=69878
    Mantle of Patience: http://www.wowhead.com/item=71270

  3. #3
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    Aye there is a complete lack of 391 cloaks and the rep one has crappy itemization. Sticking with the mantle of patience here as well.

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    I doubt we'll ever go back and do heroic totfw unless it's an achieve run, probably not farming for gear - so Perma is out. I'm probably going to stick with Mantle unless http://www.wowhead.com/item=71392 ever actually becomes avialble. But if you can get the Heroic Perma mastery version, it'd be an upgrade.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  5. #5
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    Is this the case for Prot Pallies too? My tank partner is a Pally with some sort of weird fetish for hit, so he's all excited about this stupid cloak and telling me how I'm so wrong here, but I'm pretty sure he's wrong, and that I'm right for both of us.

    Even if there is a heroic version of the Durable Flamewrath Greatcloak, while that would probably eclipse the Mantle of Patience, would it actually be better than a mastery Permafrost Cape? Or at least pretty much equal? Does anyone have actual numbers on that yet? I'm not sure how to go about getting that myself, with items I don't have.

    Anyone know a good prot war gear list out there to compare my thoughts against? Or prot warrior blogs? It seems like the oldest tank class is one of the least represented out there.

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    I know we aren't really supposed to want agility items anymore, but I could not help but notice Dreadfire Drape (http://www.wowhead.com/item=70992 is the normal mode version, drops from Lord Rhyolith). Add 2x 40 mastery gem and reforge the hit rating to dodge or parry and you have an item with 175 (193 on heroic) Mastery rating and 40ish avoidance rating.
    Last edited by Fetzie; 06-30-2011 at 05:58 PM.

  7. #7
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    Hit is the worst tanking stat, by far, no question, for a block tank.

    Mastery > parry >= dodge > expertise > hit. Expertise is 2x as valuable as hit.

    However hit and expertise are not needed for sufficient threat so it's really just itemization that would be better in something survival related. Even expertise would be far better.

    ****

    Gear lists are pretty simple, look for mastery and then dodge/parry. It's not like Wrath where bonus armor and block's relative lack of value made different gear levels viable. Now it's usually just the higher ilvl (though not always).

    What would you be looking for specifically in a Prot Warrior blog that isn't already on Tankspot?
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    Well if we're gonna get technical surey spirit...... :P

    the two cloaks are a trade off, Armour, stam, avoidance, and threat Vs mastery, for fighs with heavy magic damage, take the rep cloak, for nonheavy magic damage (i.e. most fights) the mastery is probably more useful. Tell you're pally hit freak to go check out Theck (of the Emberseal)'s math over on maintankadin. he should be an expertise junky if he's going for threat stats, but really he shoudln't need those stats if the raids playing well.

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    also to be taken into consideration Ruthless Gladiator's Cloak of Prowess

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    The comparison in the OP is counting block as avoidance. Unless you are just looking at raw combat table coverage, that isn't right. I'd also wonder why you chose to reforge parry->mastery not hit->mastery.

  11. #11
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    Probably because that way you can get a slightly higher amount of CTC from the item. For example for paladins the rule of thumb is that if an item has the second stat less than 66% of the avoidance you get more CTC by reforging the avoidance instead of the threat.

    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...635168#p635168 is the derivation of that rule of thumb.

  12. #12
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    But this is a thread about warriors isn't it? At this level of gear, I don't think any warriors are going to have trouble getting to "full coverage with shield block up", and I suggest that building a gearset that has full passive block is a more complex question than just one cloak. Reforging hit to parry on the rep cloak gives 227 parry rating + 46 mastery (+hit) + 40 stamina vs 134 mastery + 134 dodge (+ strength, some wasted itemisation points here). I don't see the quest cloak leaving my bank unless it's to build an unhittable set.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    I'd also wonder why you chose to reforge parry->mastery not hit->mastery.
    For warriors, with 1.5% block per point of mastery, I'll use the heroic version as the example:

    256 parry + 114 hit becomes either:
    A)
    154 Parry = .86% parry, pre DR
    102 Mastery = .57 mastery = .85% block
    114 hit

    or

    B)
    256 Parry = 1.43% parry pre DR
    68 hit
    46 Mastery = .26 mastery = .39% block

    So A is .86 + .85 = 1.71% with only half of that number subject to DR
    B is 1.43 + .39 = 1.82% with most of that number subject to DR.

    But now, lets say you have 1800 parry already, which isn't unreasonable for tanks, at this point it takes 232, not 179 rating for a %.
    A now becomes 154/232 = ~.68% actual parry (slightly less) + .85% block from mastery for 1.53% combat table coverage
    B now becomes 256/232 = ~1.10% actual parry (slightly less) + .39% block from mastery for 1.49% combat table coverage

    As you gain even more parry rating refoging the parry into mastery will gain more and more compartive value than reforging the hit.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    You are missing my point. If you just look at 'combat table coverage', you don't take any account of the fact that a parried attack is completely avoided while a blocked account is only mitigated by 30%. With gear inflation, 'unhittable with shield block' is basically a given. Unless you are going to gear for a full unhittable set (which in this tier, I think people are likely to start talking about) then I think people need to start factoring in more than just 'combat table coverage'.

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    A) Pallys will hit 102.4 easily this tier.
    B) Warriors may (I haven't seen anything one way or the other an been too lazy to play with ChaDev)

    C) Avoiding the maximum damage isn't the goal. Smoothing it out is. If avoiding the maximum amount of damage was the key, gearing for parry/dodge everywhere would be the plan. Saying 'well I'd rather not max CTC on this piece because I want to reforge the hit instead' but gemming mastery-centric over parry/dodge is just hybridizing two gearing options and leaving you inbetween both.

    If you look at one piece you can make almost any arguement you want, but it's not just one piece, it's how the item fits into your gear as a whole. Healer mana isn't infinite, but it's close with smooth damage intake.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    [QUOTE=Loganisis;514815]C) Avoiding the maximum damage isn't the goal. Smoothing it out is.QUOTE]

    Im not sure that will always be the case in this tier. So far what ive seen is either A) the tank dosnt take a lot of damage or B) the tank is taking a LOT of damage in bursts over short peroids. Much less consistent then in the previous tier.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

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    [QUOTE=truculent;514846]
    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    C) Avoiding the maximum damage isn't the goal. Smoothing it out is.QUOTE]

    Im not sure that will always be the case in this tier. So far what ive seen is either A) the tank dosnt take a lot of damage or B) the tank is taking a LOT of damage in bursts over short peroids. Much less consistent then in the previous tier.
    That doesn't mean taking less total damage is desirable, it means stamina is more valuable until you 'have enough' on your gear so those terrifyingly big hits aren't as terrifying.

    Now, they haven't changed the rating needed, so if you were well geared in T11, your incoming damage is already smoothish - so maybe it's a decision that your damage is already smooth enough to start going toward reducing the total amount. I can see that logic, though I'm not there yet.

    If you gear for avoidance, you will have a few more of the 0s, that is true, but you will have more than 1.5x as many full hits as well since with 0 diminishing returns, mastery is 1.5x better affecting incoming attacks than dodge/parry, and when you start factoring in diminishing returns (I think I"m at ~245ish parry rating needed for the next full% of parry for example) you can see how any shift from block to dodge/parry for block tanks will result in more than 1.5x as many unblocked hits compared to completely avoided hits gained.

    Factor in additionally that healers are already proactively healing you, they ahve to be with the potential for 60-80k damage every 1.1 seconds just from Shannox's melee swings and I believe the picture is quite clear....

    In this scenario, dodging/parrying more hits but taking more unblocked hits will make it harder for the healers to have you topped off for what the real killer will be arcing slash after a series of unblocked hits or magma rupture thrown in for fun.

    With pro-active incoming heals, making the incoming damage smaller so you're more easily pushed up to full (and maybe focusing on stamina so you have a bigger pool to fill and drain - as long as it doesn't cost you much block) seems to be a much better strat to me that hoping for RNG avoidance.

    I don't think Parry/Dodge for block tanks is all that valuable compared to mastery and stamina right now in T12 (and then only mastery if you're in T11 heroic gear since you'll have 20-30k more stamina that I have) - The diminishing returns make you give up too much block to gain any appricipable dodge or parry chance, leaving more of the incoming hits uncovered, making the chance for bad full hit strings greater, making it harder to keep you topped to a level where you can take the biggest burst damage (arcing slash in the Shannox encounter).

    ****

    Later on in this tier, Pallys will definately be dropping mastery for dodge/parry since they're hitting 102.4 so they can remove more damage from the table without giving up any new unblocked hits. Warriors? Maybe we will, maybe we won't, I haven't seen anyone play with Char Dev and figure it out and I haven't either.

    But right now - if you feel like the incoming damage is big, well, mastery > dodge/parry. A few more random dodges or parries is not as valuable as minimizing the chance of 2 or more full hits coming right before/after the real killer the boss uses.

    It would be better if it were a dodged/parried attack, no doubt. But the probability is focusing on mastery will, to the greatest extent possible, increase your survability by making you easier to heal as a block tank than focusing on Avoidance.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    You are missing my point. If you just look at 'combat table coverage', you don't take any account of the fact that a parried attack is completely avoided while a blocked account is only mitigated by 30%. With gear inflation, 'unhittable with shield block' is basically a given. Unless you are going to gear for a full unhittable set (which in this tier, I think people are likely to start talking about) then I think people need to start factoring in more than just 'combat table coverage'.
    Hitting 102.4% with Shield Block is a non-issue. I'm pretty sure I was already there before my guild started doing T11 heroics, and I'm certainly already there now. I just logged in really quick and hit my Avoidance Check macro to see where I'm currently at with Shield Block up wearing the Mantle of Patience, and I'm currently at 108.9234% avoidance, so what you're talking about is a non issue - we're already way past 102.4 with Shield Block up. The issue going forward is can we natively hit 102.4 without Shield Block. I haven't seen math on it yet to see if we actually can or not, but I'm not worrying about that too much yet - I know that currently, with what is available to me, I personally cannot do it.

    As an aside to the 102.4 discussion - like I said, I haven't seen actual math on warriors for reaching that point, and what happens beyond it, but the reading that I've seen before on the subject during T11, especially as it relates to pushing yourself over 102.4 during Shield Block, is that after hitting 102.4, for warriors, mastery actually might be even more valuable than it currently is, because at that point 1) DR's are so high on Parry/Dodge, 2) after you're basic block capped, every bit of mastery you get will exclusively effect CritBlock, smoothing out the damage even more. You seem to be talking like going mastery after 102.4 is the wrong move.

    But other than that, its pretty much what Logan said. There is so much Parry on the rep cloak, and so little Hit, that overall, my coverage on the combat table is greater if I reforge the Parry. Logan actually did the math, which jives with what I was thinking (though I'll admit, I didn't actually do the math). Mastery doesn't suffer from DR, and that much Parry, on top of my already being a bit Parry heavy (as a Prot War should be) was getting eaten up by DR. Turning a decent portion of that to Mastery gains me more overall avoidance, and while my blocks are not avoiding as much damage as my parries, they still smooth everything out, and you also have to consider my critical blocks as well too.

    On top of that, I'm at a point gearwise where I feel like I'm having so much Parry, that its getting hard to turn enough of it into Dodge, to keep my Dodge% about 2% behind my Parry%. Keeping more Parry, when I'm trying hard just to get rid of what I already have, doesn't seem very efficient. Pyrea's point was in reference to a rule for prot pallies, and while I am a prot warrior, the same concept applies. I don't know off the top of my head if the math is exactly the same, but there is without a doubt a point at which its better to reforge the avoidance stat instead of the threat stat. Whether that point is 10:1 avoidance:hit, or 5:1 or 2:1, I don't exactly know, but you can't deny that such a breakpoint exists.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    Gear lists are pretty simple, look for mastery and then dodge/parry. It's not like Wrath where bonus armor and block's relative lack of value made different gear levels viable. Now it's usually just the higher ilvl (though not always).

    What would you be looking for specifically in a Prot Warrior blog that isn't already on Tankspot?
    Yeah, I can make my own gear list, and at this point, not seeing any other Warrior-centric ones that I trust, I'm having to do so. I'm just lazy and would rather have one already made, and especially with the poor itemizations in 4.2, I'd like to have something with a bit of group-think to it, helps keep me from doing things like overlooking the Ruthless Glad's cloak that Pulled posted, or the AGI one or just plain coming to wrong conclusions.

    I don't really follow much on Tankspot outside of the forums. On the rare occasions I've checked the blogs here on Tankspot, most of them were either outdated/dead or were really not well written. Just more thoughts/conversation/discussion of warriors, gear, and mechanics in general is all I'm looking for. Preferably from someone who writes well and actually knows what they're talking about.

  20. #20
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    Actually - I forgot about this thread...

    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...ar-Progression

    I think Vexryn has updated it.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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