Shannox

[Quinafoi]

Does anyone know what happens if you kill Riplimb while Shannox does not have his spear? Does Shannox just go get the spear himself? Is it even possible? It seems like a good trick to avoid the Magma Rupture...I suspect it doesn't work though? =)

Once Riplimb dies if Shannox does not have the spear he immediately pulls it back to himself in a Death Grip type fashion.

[Dras]

....
Because the traps can be used, and likely were intended to be used, any retuning Blizzard would do would likely continue to have this method be viable, however may result in other methods becoming unviable. I don't believe they would change it further however since as I've already mentioned, their core concern was that the Riplimb tank wasn't doing as much work as they intended for them on this encounter and since the alternate method you use still requires significant movement by the Riplimb tank it is likely an acceptable alternative in the eyes of Blizzard.

Both methods are viable today and will likely remain viable since neither completely trivializes the role of the Riplimb tank....

there is one little problem with just useing trap tactic is the wary buff which prevents it from being affected by other traps for a while. Riplimb often gains Wary once he completes a spear fetch (because there are tons of immolation traps lying around). Also, a few seconds after Shannox performs Hurl Spear, Riplimb will gain Dogged Determination — that prevents him from being immobilized or slowed below 65% of his normal speed. This small window is when Riplimb can be kited (preferably into a Crystal Trap) to increase Shannox' spear downtime.
not so sure blizz just made the traps just for the dogs also affect the players and in the end there can be a lot of them laying around..

[Dras]

hi a little question what program are you all using to film ingame?

Fraps to record, vegas moviestudio to edit the recording after...

[Quinafoi]

there is one little problem with just useing trap tactic is the wary buff which prevents it from being affected by other traps for a while. Riplimb often gains Wary once he completes a spear fetch (because there are tons of immolation traps lying around). Also, a few seconds after Shannox performs Hurl Spear, Riplimb will gain Dogged Determination — that prevents him from being immobilized or slowed below 65% of his normal speed. This small window is when Riplimb can be kited (preferably into a Crystal Trap) to increase Shannox' spear downtime.
not so sure blizz just made the traps just for the dogs also affect the players and in the end there can be a lot of them laying around..

If you can move yourself out of Immolation and Crystal Prison Traps, you can move a dog into them. If you fail to trap him before Dogged Determination is applied, that is a matter of timing and technique, not a flaw in the tactic. The tactic isn't flawed but perhaps the execution of it is.

Also, on heroic difficulty you have to use the traps because of Feeding Frenzy in particular on Rageface. Using them on Riplimb is still technically optional. So your argument that Blizzard didn't intend for the traps to be used against the dogs is clearly incorrect once you include differences in heroic mode difficulty. In normal mode difficulty since Rageface is killed and you have the traps anyway you may as well use them for Riplimb.

[Dras]

what arguement Quinafoi ? where did i ever post that the traps isent made for the dogs ? read the post above and you see it's about the warry buff wich makes the dogs ignoring the traps for 25sec. if you wanna use trap only tactic sure go ahead really up to you m8 ,im just saying no need to bother with em in NORMAL MODE since the jagged tear on the tanks can easly be removed with kiting riblimb - nothing more nothing less - check out the video from previous post and see it can be done....
On hc mode the fight changes ofc , blizzard made it that way and having crystal trap around is actually usefull in HC MODE....

[Breyal]

Great Video..is there a 10 man version? I've searched and come up with none.

[Outbackjack]

I've got a 10 man video from a tank point of view, its not terribly different from the 25 man version. You can find it in the Strategy Discussion forum here.

[canman]

We have tried this fight a couple of times on 10 man using a couple of different strategies all with not much luck. I have a couple of questions from the melee dps (Rogue specifically but some apply to all melee) perspective that I would appreciate any insight on:

- We have tried the all dps on Riplimb first strategy and it does seem to have some good value; however, it is very frustrating from a melee dps and especially Rogue perspective. If I am tasked with dps on Riplimb, I spend almost my entire time chasing him around, and then if the tank traps him in a trap which is often a good idea, Riplimb is then immune to damage. So basically it is very hard for me keep up on dps on either dog because of how they move.
- However if we put melee dps on Shannox like the movie suggests, I am able to carry out pretty much my normal rotation and come pretty close to my max dps all the time.

So what are most 10 man melee dps doing?

Last question, seems like I always see references to Rogues disarming the traps, and I honestly can not see why this comes up. Yes, we can disarm the traps - but ONLY when stealthed so you either have to do nothing but disarm traps or you have waste your vanish just to regain stealth to disarm trap which even for a sub Rogue would be twice every cd period. It just does not seem like a viable strategy so I am wondering why it is even ever mentioned. Does anyone actually have their Rogue doing this?

Thanks.

[ananoon]

So what are most 10 man melee dps doing?

In our group we have a ret paly and a frost DK for melee. Our ret paly is on Shanox the whole time, only switching to riplimb if we get to close to 30% on Shannox before riplimb goes down. Our frost DK is on rageface at the start to help with face rage since he tends to get some big hits, and howling blast makes it easier for him to dps from some distance. He switches to Shannox with the ret paly when rageface goes down. Here are the logs from our kill last week.




[QUOTE=canman;522080]Last question, seems like I always see references to Rogues disarming the traps, and I honestly can not see why this comes up. Yes, we can disarm the traps - but ONLY when stealthed so you either have to do nothing but disarm traps or you have waste your vanish just to regain stealth to disarm trap which even for a sub Rogue would be twice every cd period. It just does not seem like a viable strategy so I am wondering why it is even ever mentioned. Does anyone actually have their Rogue doing this?[quote]


We had a rogue for a while who would disarm some of the traps when we were first learning the fight. Honestly, it ended up not being that useful. There are way more traps than the CD for disarming allows. Once your tanks get used to positioning, and your raid learns how to avoid traps, there's no need for any disarming.

[bulbados]

If I am tasked with dps on Riplimb, I spend almost my entire time chasing him around, and then if the tank traps him in a trap which is often a good idea, Riplimb is then immune to damage.

Out 10-man raid tried a number of different things and we finally settled on this and have been able to get Shannox down.

1. All DPS on Rageface until he goes down. It does cause Shannox to enrage early in the fight, but it's healable and takes the possibility of someone getting Face Raged while Shannox throws a spear out of the fight (seriously, if those two things happen together, you can lose a full health raider in less than 3 seconds).

2. Once Rageface goes down, we split our DPS - range goes to Riplimb and melee goes to Shannox. As you mentioned, Riplimb moves a lot so melee DPS on him will lose a lot of DPS time. In addition, when Riplimb gets trapped, he needs to stay trapped long enough for the stacks of Jagged Tear to drop, so DPS needs to stop hitting him to avoid breaking the trap too soon. Melee DPS on Riplimb have to stand there and look at him while ranged DPS can quickly switch to Shannox and deal a little more damage while waiting for the trap.

3. As we approach 35%-40% on Shannox, we may need to adjust our DPS so that Riplimb goes down with Shannox in the 31%-32% range so we may pull melee DPS off to help on Riplimb or vice-versa.

That approach has worked well for us as it seems to give everyone an opportunity to perform at their best.

[Quinafoi]

Regarding trap disarming, there really is only one reason to do this and that is to make sure a trap you want triggered is triggered. For instance if an immolation trap is inconvenently too close to a crystal prison trap for the crystal prison to be used on one of the dogs you can disarm the immolation trap to make that crystal prison trap viable. Disarming traps isn't used to clean up traps, but to make traps that remain usable (reliably) against the dogs. If two traps are too close together and you mean to freeze the dog, luck would have it that immolation is the one triggered instead. Ideally you shouldn't have to disarm any traps at all, however if you see such a situation where disarming one makes another easier to use you can do so.

[Vong]

Help. Ok we've had a few good attempts on this now and last night our best effort was 7% before shannox murdered us all. Raid as follows.
MT-Bear
OT-Warrior (me)
Healers-druid (raid) pally (mt) disc priest (me)
Dps-rogue, dk frost, shadow p, mm hunter and dest lock.

Our tactic is as most 10man advice here. Focus kill rageface down then ranged on rip and melee on shannox until rip has to be trapped then all on shannox till trap wears off. Resetting stacks at around 6-7 as both tanks are 372+ geared so plenty of health. Stopped dps on shannox at 33% reset stacks one last time and then kill riplimb. This is fine up and till this point then it get messy. I start on boss to build aggro but struggle to get up past dps at this point. MT seems to drop like a stone and he's moving from spear in ground but seems even with stack reset and the extra fire dam he's dying real quick maybe 30-45 secs in. Then As I'm still gaining aggro shannox goes bananas in the raid and by the time I'm top we've lost 3-4 and are unable to kill him. All the dps are doing really good numbers I'm assured the healers are using CDs as and when but we failed. Really frustrating. I know we haven't got hero or warp with this setup our Mage wasn't available and shammys is guild arnt geared really yet. Is there something glaringly obvious that I can't see wrong???Really want my guild to kill this guy it will be big morale boost as we arnt moving forward as of yet in fl. Cheers in advance. Vong.

[Tengenstein]

You're not going to realistically gonna manage to get aggro on shannox (well you might, with the new threat changes), you shouldn't be trying, P3 is only meant to last a minute, minute and a half really. If the MT gets insta-gibbed something went tits up, either the MT stood in something (or otherwise did something silly), the healers dropped the ball, or shannox enranged.

Do you have a raid log so we can so what actaully happened? We really can't tell what happened with so litttle data, so everything is just guesswork. What's really good numbers for DPS? what's your external CD rotation for P3? did you use rallying cry? did the MT just fuck up and stand in a fire?

why are you going to 6-7 stacks? its not much effort to drop them a 2-3, and saves a shed tonne of healer mana

[Vong]

No log from last night but going again weds so will set something up then. Sorry. Dps are ranging from 18-15k for the fight so on a static target I'm "guessing" we deff got the numbers to kill him. But I will sort log out and re post. I understand it's more data just thought I might be Missing something out in finale phase. The tank stacks tear again and with the fire and norm melee swing he's dead quick time lol. Will post data when I have some

[Icebreaker]

There is a kinda safe spot for MT at last spears - a bit back and to the right. Plus trinket/big cd's every spear. There should be not more than 3 of them in the last phase.

[Kerchunk]

Quick tip for anyone who didn't realize: the last patch nerfed the duration of the Wary debuff; you are now able to Immolate Riplimb between every spear and Wary will drop in time for you to trap him again.

Needless to say this is a huge boost to Riplimb DPS and should help you balance out DPS and get the fight done quite a bit faster.

I understand it's more data just thought I might be Missing something out in finale phase.

Nothing really to miss in the phase. Pop Herolust, potions, CDs and burn him as fast as you can. Use raid walls like Aura Mastery to even out damage from the spears and just try to get through him as quickly as possible. Helps if Riplimb goes down when Shannox is at ~31% as opposed to 35%+. Can really make a big difference.

If your tank is dying incredibly fast there are really only three possibilities:
a) He stepped on an Immolation trap. Immolate + double dog Shannox damage is almost a guaranteed death and you wouldn't be able to tell it goes so fast. I bet if you checked the log that's what you would find.

b) Healers are not re-focusing quickly enough after Riplimb dies and applies another stack of the enrage to Shannox.

c) Your healers are just not up to the task.

I'm really guessing it's a). Maybe it's a bit of b). For your sake I hope it's not c)!

Best of luck in there.

[Garbid]

There are choices on how to tank Riplimb, using crystal traps or kiting while tanking him at max distance from shannox. We use the traps on normal but the kiting on heroic. Why ?

On heroic you need the crystal traps for Rage Face, but on normal it's preferred if you have Rage Face hitting Immolation Traps for added dmg (from the trap it self and the increased dmg taken shortly after being hit by it). So what we do is make sure ranged are not standing near Immolation traps on heroic, so Rage Face doesn't accidentally hit one, but close to Crystal Traps so you can trap him (cause of feeding frenzy debuff), on normal you want people to stand near Immolation Traps.

Here is a video of our guilds Shannox Heroic kill where you can see a smooth reset of stacks every single time using the kiting method and tanks never getting over 3 stacks of the bleed. Take not that we use a warrior tank with heroic leap every other Hurl Spear and life gripping priests rotating on the other Hurl Spears, 1 of them being the OT healer and the other being Rage Face target healer or the spriest slowing Rip Limb when he's fetching the spear.

Resto Shaman healing the OT PoV:


Heroic leap/Life Grip -> Intervene -> Charge Shannox!

Use rogues Tricks to find out the 100yard range and set beacons. Thunderclap (and all attack speed slowing debuffs) are by far the best debuffs you can put on the dogs cause of Feeding Frenzy and on my way back I always try to apply it also to Rage Face. Having Riplimb hitting a Crystal trap on the way back to OT can mess up the kiting distance you can get, so try to avoid these.

1 more thing for those saying 1 method is superior to the other, if you use traps to trap Rip Limb, he "leaps" to shannox after getting the spear but on the kiting method he doesn't and can be slowed from the point where he starts going for the spear and til he gets it to Shannox, both ways taking about as long. Having a Warrior tank on Rip Limb makes the kiting superior cause of the great distance you can get with the tools he has.

Hope this helps.

[Cheekyazz]

The way we do it is, all dps are on rageface, until its dead, we kill rageface 1st, always have.
Once its dead, our melee which is only 1 and a frost dk then stays on boss, we then dps riplimb down to around 35% dot classes move off around 38% then we dps shannox down to around 35% same thing again dot classes move off around 38% then we finish off riplimb them kill boss.

[Pacans]

Some points to look at:
1) we usually leave Shannox @ 40% as our Warrior Tank brings him down too fast if we leave him at 35% and dog goes into enrage and of-course its a wipe
2) before killing Riplimb time when Jagged Tier debuff will fall off. If we are starting ph2 with 5+ tiers on main tank it will be a wipe. So before last burn kite him into trap with few hundreds k hp left, when trap falling off pop Lust burn him and then burn Shannox.

I don't know why but I have seen many players are taking this phase as full nuke phase and ignore everything. It is not. If You can fail in ph1 then You can not afford that in ph2 (10 man). So basically its much more important to watch under Your feet then make big dps on boss.

[Kerchunk]

1 more thing for those saying 1 method is superior to the other, if you use traps to trap Rip Limb, he "leaps" to shannox after getting the spear

Is that a Heroic thing? 'cause he definitely doesn't do anything like that on normal.