+ Reply to Thread
Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 137

Thread: The Weekly Marmot - The Problem with Hard Modes

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    786
    cause it was optional! lol

    Seriously, this could be fixed easily...and the loot isn't even the issue its how Heroics were designed in Ulduar that we liked.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    1,342
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    i'm aware of that but with the exception of a more outdated Tier Token system I dont see what the problem was with Ulduar's loot system.
    Basically what Darksend said, though as I said previously, it is easily fixed by having a mixed token/drop system. [Or even institute heroic "upgrade" reagents combined with a standard loot table. Simply loot the BoP reagent and combine it with a normal piece to convert it to heroic (Could even do it w/ a vendor to save the trouble of coding a new system). Simply "upgrade" the slots that don't directly drop.].

    EDIT: Though I agree that the loot system isn't [directly] relevant to the issue of natural progression [at least in this case], nor is it the primary reason why the Ulduar "Hardmode" system was abandoned.



  3. #63
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    111
    Quoth Lore:
    To be perfectly honest, it would actually be really really nice if I didn't have to kill every single fight twice. (12:35)

    This has always been my biggest problem with hard modes. I know that killing the a HM boss can be very different from killing on normal. It can also be very similar, with bigger numbers. The problem is that either way, you are killing the same boss. From a lore perspective, it makes little sense that a boss who is being attacked would not use some abilities, just because you haven't really pissed him off, or pushed a button, or whatever. From a player perspective, regardless of implementation, it always seems like you are just playing through the game again on a higher difficulty setting, instead of moving on to new content.

    I think that one of the problems with the rate content comes out is that every boss now has to be tuned 4 times (10r, 10h, 25r, 25h). With the shared lockouts, you can only run one of those 4. (Ok, a combination of 2 is more likely, but still.. you kill each boss on only 1 of 4 tuned settings each week.) That's good... I didn't like running 10s and 25s just to max out gear and badges. On the downside, it means that they are putting in a lot more work per boss, which means that it will take them longer to get new bosses ready.

    In addition to the length of time, having effectively 2 tiers for every tier adds to problems. The top guilds are now running in all BIS HM gear. The semi-serious have killed quite a bit of the HM bosses now, and have a mix of HM and regular gear. The people who chose not to run heroic modes are in regular only gear. The next tier will be easier for the people you want it to be hardest for.. the top guilds will go in with a gear advantage. The normal modes will be tuned for those that didn't do heroics; for those that did, they are not real content, and just a nuisance before you can run the new hard modes.

    Personally, I would love to see an end to hard modes. I would like to see the bosses start off very difficult, with slow nerfs over time. The hard core guilds could kill them first, get the world first kills, etc. The casuals would probably not be through a tier when the next one came out. The semi serious would be finishing about the time the next one comes out. Using the badge system, it would not be impossible to catch up, as it was in TBC, so the high end guilds would have a recruiting base. I don't understand why every tier has to be done twice in order to be 'completed'.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    69
    Tbh, I don't see why people QQ that much about the way heroic modes work now. The only difference you have is that a raid aiming to do normal modes won't trigger heroic by mistake - and that you have to kill the last boss of an instance to turn it on heroic. [I am thinking of those few times that we excedently killed the heart on robo-kid and wiped. Sure, that was rare, but I had it happening once... xD]

    I mean, the raid is pretty much set BEFORE they raid if they wanna do it heroic or not - what does it matter if it's 'hit the dude in the corner on the head to activate the heroic version' or 'switch it on'? [Besides the 10 minute CD and the wierd stuff going on with people being in two different instances sometimes - that's a good system working bad, not a bad system :P].

    Other then that, I've done only about half the heroic fights and I'm stressed to say I find them lacking. Even Atramedes and Conclave [who are the only 2 fights that don't change MASSIVLY, imo] are DAMN more challenging on heroic then on normal. Ok, so maybe Atramedes was a bit... tuned down. But I think that 12/13 HM's were done great.

    The MAIN reason why people have so much QQ'ing going on over this tier is cause it's been out for half a year. I do belive we had same sort of stuff going almost every expansion at this time of the patch...

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    1,342
    Quote Originally Posted by Nehama View Post
    Tbh, I don't see why people QQ that much about the way heroic modes work now. The only difference you have is that a raid aiming to do normal modes won't trigger heroic by mistake - and that you have to kill the last boss of an instance to turn it on heroic. [I am thinking of those few times that we excedently killed the heart on robo-kid and wiped. Sure, that was rare, but I had it happening once... xD]
    I think the "have to kill the last boss" is part of the problem, however. Its what contributes to the base problem being discussed here... that, for a constantly growing number of players, heroic modes aren't compelling, nor being viewed as "natural progression." People get to the Final Boss, kill him, and feel generally satisfied. They'll still go back for months and kill em again, but they'll not really be motivated to walk into the instance on heroic. However, if you can make heroic mode less like "Do it all again, but this time with 20% more hard," which is not very compelling, to "do a trigger during your normal run and see how H-mode goes for you," you'll definitely see more interest in doing H-modes. Its more of a "hey, we got this place on farm... if we're good enough to make the trigger on Boss X happen, then lets give it a whorl," rather than "Ya know, I really don't know if we're good enough for HM, and we got this place on farm, so lets not screw up the purple train."

    This is partially where the loot system does start becoming an issue. If you don't gate heroic mode, and you make a raid progress from least to most difficult, then heroic mode must be nearly impossible to accomplish without a significant portion of your raid at least 50% decked in normal mode gear from the same tier. However, this contributes to rapid gear inflation, essentially requiring larger iLvL gaps between each set [e.g.-- T11N, T11H, T12N, T12H]. As we know, rapid gear inflation is what caused the problems exhibited in ICC. The other alternative is to so tightly tune fights that H-modes are only attempt-able by the best of the best.

    Of course, the easiest solution is to stop giving a hoot about whether a top end guilds get to delve directly into HMs. As long as the great majority of players are sufficiently challenged, it shouldn't really be a concern. We still get to Ooh & Aah when Top Guild X crushes through the content, except they'll do it one week sooner. Woo. Alert the media.



  6. #66
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    112
    I think viewing hardmodes as natural progression is something that will come with time. Having both hard modes and normal modes as part of the progression path is a new thing. Ulduar only sported a few hardmodes, ToC had normal modes that were puggable 5/5, ICC also had extremely simple normal modes excluding two or three fights. This is the first tier of raid where we have a full set of hard modes ON TOP of a full set of relatively challenging hard modes.

    This, in addition to a "heroic" loot-tag and visible item-level will make those who do well on normal mode and is about to run out of content step into heroic modes when they feel ready. And yes, maybe this downgrades us to animals looking at shiny epics going "woooooooooooooooooooo", but it's how it works. Not only because the itemlevel is higher and color is more shiny purple, but because it allows us to defeat more content in the future.

    I also find it hard to believe the people that for some undefined reason doesn't feel like doing hard modes are literally flooding the servers out there. I don't know anyone with that mindset. But for those it apply to, I think it is more the perception that "hard modes are for the hardcore people", and they dont see themselves as one of them. That, too, will change in time.

  7. #67
    cause it was optional! lol
    It was exactly as optional as heroic modes are today. I dunno why people keep trying to make that distinction.

    "Do it all again, but this time with 20% more hard," which is not very compelling, to "do a trigger during your normal run and see how H-mode goes for you," you'll definitely see more interest in doing H-modes. Its more of a "hey, we got this place on farm... if we're good enough to make the trigger on Boss X happen, then lets give it a whorl," rather than "Ya know, I really don't know if we're good enough for HM, and we got this place on farm, so lets not screw up the purple train."
    It's functionally the exact same thing though, this is another distinction that I don't understand. You're just wording it differently to make one sound like a secret, hidden, fun level in Super Mario Brothers and to make the other sound like a boring, terrible trip through a horrible Mario-clone made by some no-name developer. The reality is that they're exactly the same.

    Ulduar: "Hey, think we can do hard mode XT?" ... "I dunno, man, maybe we should just get free purples." ... "Eh, lets trigger it once, ok?"

    T11: "Hey, think we can do hard mode Halfus?" ... "I dunno, man, maybe we should just get free purples." ... "Eh, lets set it for heroic once, ok?"
    Last edited by Bovinity; 06-23-2011 at 06:11 AM.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    723
    meh ... qualitative vs quantitative analysis. You're both right, you're just making different arguments.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    4,404
    I liked that Ulduar didn't have all the bosses having hard modes. What this meant was that even if you were working on hard mode encounters, you could just take it easy on that next boss after you killed hard mode Iron Council, and not worry about whether you're wimping out. Kind of a breather between hard modes.

    Also, I liked the fact that you could do the hard modes in Ulduar without having to kill Yogg first. What that meant was that for a slowly progressing guild like mine, we could be prepared to kill hard mode XT IF we happened to kill the heart, but we were still working on some of the normal mode keepers. I think my guild actually killed Hard Mode Hodir and Hard Mode Thorim before we killed Yogg. There was a lot more flexibility in encounter choice, and I never felt like I was just doing the fight over again, because I was still always on my way to the end of the instance.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
    I'm empty and aching and I don't know why
    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
    They've all gone to look for America

  10. #70
    To be perfectly honest, it would actually be really really nice if I didn't have to kill every single fight twice. (12:35)


    Twice? Come on, people make far too big an issue out of, "I have to kill it TWICE?! On normal and hard?!" when we all know that most guilds will actually kill any individual boss enough times to put their kill counts into the double digits in any given tier.

    Also, I liked the fact that you could do the hard modes in Ulduar without having to kill Yogg first.
    That was actually a pretty neat aspect, I'll agree. Then again, the accompishment of "unlocking" the hardmode version is also kinda cool. I dunno which I'd say I liked more. =O

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Karlsruhe/Germany
    Posts
    4,002
    What would be wrong with making hardmodes accessible from day 1 but virtually unkillable without gearing up in normal mode gear first?

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    723
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrea View Post
    What would be wrong with making hardmodes accessible from day 1 but virtually unkillable without gearing up in normal mode gear first?
    The issue is that's a very narrow tuning window that's going to be all but impossible to hit. We're talking millimeters off in either direction and either way too many guilds can just do it in HM or too few can do it even in full normal mode gear. By at least making the trigger something sufficiently difficult to hit you have an organic way of knowing if you're even ready or not. Plenty of Ulduar raids got to Yogg without ever even coming close to unlocking Thorim (although I suspect plenty at least took shots at XT and/or Hodir) ... while others certainly got Thorim down before Yogg. Its nice that its organic like that and therefore each guild goes at their own natural pace. I don't want to go back to the argument that Spiritus and Bovinity were having earlier in the threat (where I still maintain they were both *right*) ... but this is essentially what they were arguing over.

    My point is a lock of somekind (be it an organic trigger or having to kill the gating boss) is important.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    1,342
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrea View Post
    What would be wrong with making hardmodes accessible from day 1 but virtually unkillable without gearing up in normal mode gear first?
    Gear inflation or the tightness of tuning, mostly. If you make it "vitually unkillable" with 100% HM from previous tier, but barely attempt-able, say, with 50% of normal mode gear, then the overall iLvL jump between TA-Heroic gear and TB-Normal gear either has to be drastic, or the fight so tightly tuned that the slightest error in execution [like, 99% uptime on a DoT v. 100% uptione] with 50% normal mode gear would result in a wipe.



  14. #74
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    4,404

    The Weekly Marmot - The Problem with Hard Modes

    That's kind of an important point about the Ulduar hard modes. The trigger was also the test to see if you were capable of doing it, at least for XT and Thorim. In a sense, it was even the test for Hodir, though if you failed on Hodir's test, you often lost your shot for that week.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
    I'm empty and aching and I don't know why
    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
    They've all gone to look for America

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    1,342
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    It's functionally the exact same thing though, this is another distinction that I don't understand. You're just wording it differently to make one sound like a secret, hidden, fun level in Super Mario Brothers and to make the other sound like a boring, terrible trip through a horrible Mario-clone made by some no-name developer. The reality is that they're exactly the same.
    The only way to come to any sort of agreement is for me to say a "hardmode" in Ulduar is functionally the same as a "heroic" in every subsequent tier in the sense that they are both modified version of a fight that is designed to be more challenging. That is why they are both "progression."

    Ulduar "hardmodes," however, can be more fittingly described as "natural progression" than subsequent "heroic" modes because:

    (1) In most cases, causing the trigger gave you a tangible signal during a normal fight that you were ready to try a more difficult setting.
    (2) If a guild dominates one fight, but struggles on another, it is far more organic to just trigger "hardmode" naturally due to how well you are doing on the first and skip the second (especially if you aren't capable of causing the trigger on the second).
    (3) Being able to attempt hardmodes on day 1 means that it is less like "Now the real progression begins. Normals are just bosses 1-7, now its time for bosses 8-14," and more like "It's there when we sufficiently master a particular fight, not when we down a completely unrelated endboss."

    ====

    A bit more on point 3. This is, IMO, where the proverbial rubber of "natural progression" really hits the road. This may be tin foil hat time, but believe me when I tell you that I'm looking at this from a designer's perspective. By requiring the death of the last boss in an instance to begin work on heroic versions of the encounter, you force a somewhat linear progression where, instead of there being bosses 1-7 with HMs for each (or a few), you actually have bosses 1-14. I believe this "grand plan" of attempting to engineer heroic modes as "natural progression" serves as a way to increase satisfaction while decreasing effort and resources in development. If they can get a significant majority of the playerbase to think "I really haven't beat Nefarian unless it was on Heroic," then you essentially have created 2 boss fights for the fraction the effort it would take to actually make another boss fight. Remember when everyone bemoaned only 7 bosses in Firelands? Now think if the developers are convinced they can turn what is perceived to be 7 bosses now, into 14 in the future. IMO, i think they first tested this in ToC. 5 bosses? No, no. Its 10 really. The real progression begins at heroic difficulty. Beating normal ToC isn't 5/5 normal, rather 5/10 ToC. Get it?*

    Now, there seems to be some pushback from this, but I can't really say to what extent. From the business side of the development standpoint [and the raw communicative standpoint], I think it's brilliant. From the player's side? The only true test is if people buy it or not. From what I hear from most people is the Ulduar design was king for mostly the reasons I enumerated above. The question is whether that design makes sense from a business perspective anymore.

    *Check back on some previous blue posts that talk specifically about the complaints of 7 bosses in Firelands. I think there is specific mention about "It isn't 7 bosses, there are heroic versions as well!" (paraphrase).
    Last edited by Spiritus; 06-23-2011 at 07:38 AM.



  16. #76
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    3,897
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    It was exactly as optional as heroic modes are today. I dunno why people keep trying to make that distinction.



    It's functionally the exact same thing though, this is another distinction that I don't understand. You're just wording it differently to make one sound like a secret, hidden, fun level in Super Mario Brothers and to make the other sound like a boring, terrible trip through a horrible Mario-clone made by some no-name developer. The reality is that they're exactly the same.

    Ulduar: "Hey, think we can do hard mode XT?" ... "I dunno, man, maybe we should just get free purples." ... "Eh, lets trigger it once, ok?"

    T11: "Hey, think we can do hard mode Halfus?" ... "I dunno, man, maybe we should just get free purples." ... "Eh, lets set it for heroic once, ok?"
    NO NO NO NO NO! It is a secret level in ulduar.

    The difference is, if you ACCIDENTALLY KILL THE HEART on xt, or ACCIDENTALLY make it down the hallway to fast on thorim, you can say "o well lets give it a try"

    People who do not want to try hard modes will never "accidentally" switch it to heroic.



  17. #77
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    3
    I prefer activated hardmodes for 2 reasons.

    1) You don't have to kill the end boss first.
    2) You have an reasonable estimation of your raids ability before you try them.

    Let me expand on that. I was in a casual guild during Ulduar of the "let's see who's online" type. Some nights we had some very good players that were geared, skilled, and more then able to take out hardmodes in Uld. Other nights we didn't. This resulted in two things. We never killed Yogg (inconsistent attendance) and we also had some hardmode loot since on some nights we could get the XT hardmode, or Council, or Hodir. Which was awesome.

    The second is my favorite thing about the old sytem. As a former GM, the hardest thing to decide is "are my players ready for X" where X is the hardmode version. With activated hardmodes of the XT/Hodir/Thorim variety, you generally had a pretty good idea. If your raid was getting Horim down in 3mins 15s, then yeah...you could probably start pushing for the hardmode and people would feel good about it. If your hallway group was having to hold up to *not* activate hardmode, then again...easy call if the raid feels up to it.

    In Cata (and later Wrath) you're in a situation where the hardmodes can be so much harder then the normal that the only way to gauge your groups readiness is to try it. You don't have a reliable measure of how likely success is.

    Add to this the ongoing churn in raiding guilds, and you can have raids where the GM hasn't really got any meaningful benchmarks to determine if the raid is ready for heroic Maloriak anymore.

  18. #78
    I am glad that twords the end you started adressing what I consider to be the issue with HMs. Your Atramedes example is exactly the problem, one extra bell or whistle is terrible content. Like you were hinting at, Ulduar was defidentally the raid with the least things wrong. Not having a HM is infact OK, like Razorscale/Igy/Cat Lady/Hodir. Only when they have a good idea for a HM (Iron Council/Yogg/XT was ok/Freya) should they bother putting it in.

    One thing I disagree entirely on is if Blizzard did have an NPC that could nerf the t11 regulars for you. For starters, with 359 gear being 5-man bought and the new Troll dungeons, t11 will be an introductory tier. Like a Blue once said, content nerfs itself over time because we get gear/experience. Also, nobody is going not talk to the NPC, handi-capping yourself is retarded. The only time someone wouldn't is if they were REALLY close to a LK kill (using ICC and its buff for an example) and the 5% buff came out but they were like, "yo dudes, we are almost there." Or if they were going for a world first which... isn't that big of a deal since HMs aren't being nerfed.

    Idk, good show, love that you're doing what you do how you doing it. Keep it easy killer

  19. #79
    Best Marmot in a long time, Lore - generally agreed with every word you said.
    Unwavering Sentinel: Tales of a Protection Warrior Running Wild.
    http://unwaveringsentinel.blogspot.co.uk

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    197
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    It was exactly as optional as heroic modes are today. I dunno why people keep trying to make that distinction.



    It's functionally the exact same thing though, this is another distinction that I don't understand. You're just wording it differently to make one sound like a secret, hidden, fun level in Super Mario Brothers and to make the other sound like a boring, terrible trip through a horrible Mario-clone made by some no-name developer. The reality is that they're exactly the same.

    Ulduar: "Hey, think we can do hard mode XT?" ... "I dunno, man, maybe we should just get free purples." ... "Eh, lets trigger it once, ok?"

    T11: "Hey, think we can do hard mode Halfus?" ... "I dunno, man, maybe we should just get free purples." ... "Eh, lets set it for heroic once, ok?"
    They are not exactly the same. Presentation is a huge part of the game. You could have a fight in a dungeon where all you saw were the boss, characters and ability animatons and the background could just be a black void. Functionally exactly the same, but who would play that game? The big red button was a great presentation for a hard mode switch and we actually fought about who got to press it first in our group. No one gives a damn who toggles the interface to heroic.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts