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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - The Problem with Hard Modes

  1. #21
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    TBC had more tier of raiding, but at the beginning many of the encounters were either overtuned (e.g. Gruul, Solarian), or simply plain impossible (e.g. vashj, Kael'thas25)

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    Atramedes: The loss of extra gongs is the issue for this fight on heroic, not the adds.

    Magmaw: This one is pretty close, but the real change for most of the raid comes from the meteor impacts and flame trails on the floor adding to the mess.

    Twin Dragons: "There are adds" doesn't begin to address the issues introducted in this fight on heroic. If it was just normal with adds it would be a pushover fight.
    Keep in mind these are fights I have not personally done being in a casual raiding guild that is 10/12 (we from January till May only raided 4 days a month and some months less than that) and most of my raiders enjoyed the raids being difficult again but none of us have an issue with them nerfing T11 at this point. We won't be in Firelands week one (4th of July is playing havoc with peoples availability) but we will be in there week 2 hopefully.

  3. #23
    It's not that it was more accessible, it's that it was all still relevant. tBC had actual multiple tiers of raiding, instead of only the current tier and the current tier (heroic). More choice in difficulty level is a good thing.
    There were multiple tiers of raiding in Wrath and there will be multiple tiers of raiding in Cataclysm. No one is forcing anyone to leap straight into Firelands. All of these "We don't raid for gear or world firsts, we're social/casual!" people can still do T11 just like they could before, I'm not sure why people are acting like T11 is just going to get up and float away like Dalaran.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    There were multiple tiers of raiding in Wrath and there will be multiple tiers of raiding in Cataclysm. No one is forcing anyone to leap straight into Firelands. All of these "We don't raid for gear or world firsts, we're social/casual!" people can still do T11 just like they could before, I'm not sure why people are acting like T11 is just going to get up and float away like Dalaran.
    Me neither. Honestly I think I largely disagree with Lore's initial premise here ... or rather I just haven't heard a compelling arguement as to why T11 shouldn't be nerfed. I largely believe we need puggable raid content and T11 will serve that purpose. Yeah I'm sorry for people that won't finish T11 before they nerf it ... but guess what ... I never got to go to the original Naxx or kill C'thun before BC dropped. Big deal, we move on. Content goes stale in this game ... it's just a fact of life and has been part of their design since BC came out when they invalidated all of their previous content. Again ... big deal ... move on. For the record I'm not gonna get a Sinestra kill before 4.2 ... I'm not crying into my hat over it. Seriously people.

    #1. We need puggable raid content. T11 is going to become that ... its the ONLY solution right now ... they're not gonna whip up an introduction raid at this point.

    #2. When 4.2 drops either finish up T11 if you are not done (Cho'gal and Nef will still be plenty hard/challenging/full of wipes) ... or move on to T12 if you think you want a "pure" challenge. In either case understand it's all a perception thing on your part.

    #3. Save the whining for when 4.3 comes out and they nerf 4.2 ... and it all goes back to rinse/repeat.
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  5. #25
    I agree the way to trigger the Ulduar Heroic modes was unique and enjoyable. I do enjoy the introduction of new mechanics over larger numbers that you can "gear through" simply because there's no learning curve such as the mentioned Atramedes encounter.

    I do feel however that there is a need for an Atramedes Hard Mode despite the lack of inspiration with it. I mean how weird would it be to have the loot on his table simply not have an upgraded version of itself? As much as I disagree with uninspired encounters I don't think the solution is to just take it out but rather for the Devs to look at something like that and find it unacceptable to release a simple Heroic on Live. If a Heroic mode was just simply taken out how would they make up for the missing Heroic level gear slots from that encounter?

  6. #26
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    Don't forget that the previous incarnation of Atramedes heroic (after they fixed the bugs and exploits which made him easier than he is now) was very, very hard until it got whacked with the nerfbat.

  7. #27
    Yes, he started out extremely difficult and I did do attempts on him while that was true but the end result is this: he is a joke. He WAS difficult but for the majority of T11 he was simple.
    Again, the nerf was.. understandable to an extent... but to bring him down to what he is now shouldn't have been seen as acceptable with the Devs.
    "Oh, no one is killing him. Just make him normal mode + one occasional add + big numbers."
    No. Just no.

  8. #28
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    Hard mode was great in Ulduar because it wasn't something you just flipped a switch on. You had to actively do something during the encounter to "enable" it. So in essence, you changed the way you did a fight to unlock new content. Hard modes now just seem that they're a way to add extra content the "cheap and easy way". Ever since BC, they've been saying they want to release content faster. They want to have a new expansion every year... and every expansion the gap between new tiers of content seems to get longer and longer.

    I enjoy Blizzard products, I really do. But honestly, it's time they put up or shut up. Hard modes are FAKE additional content. IT'S THE SAME THING!!! Start putting out QUALITY content that actually takes people a while to complete or start pumping out more of what you've been giving us lately a lot faster.

  9. #29
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    The simple solution is to add another level of difficulty.

    Teaparty mode = Have a teaparty with the boss. During this time you will enjoy muffins and hot tea while the boss reads an excerpt from the encounter journal in the voice of Sean Connery. After that, a massive game of duck duck goose will take place. If at least 1 person can tag the boss before he runs around the circle, you all receive loot. If not, it's a wipe and you have to listen to more Sean Connery before playing again.

    But for real, all the people complaining about these nerfs seem to be past 12/12 normal already. Until there is an uprising of 9/12 guilds angry that they will finally be able to go 12/12, I don't see a reason to care about this.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by lebronjaymes View Post
    Teaparty mode = Have a teaparty with the boss. During this time you will enjoy muffins and hot tea while the boss reads an excerpt from the encounter journal in the voice of Sean Connery. After that, a massive game of duck duck goose will take place. If at least 1 person can tag the boss before he runs around the circle, you all receive loot. If not, it's a wipe and you have to listen to more Sean Connery before playing again.
    I'm just quoting this.

  11. #31
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    I, personally, don't have a strong opinion on nerfing T11 content for 4.2. I also think that a nerfing "choice" isn't really a choice at all. It wasn't in ICC and it wouldn't have been for T11 in 4.2. The only way to make this work as intended is to differentiate the rewards received depending on if you chose "30% nerf" or "as is." Heck... why not make "30% nerf" mode practice bosses? No repair bill for death, doesn't count against your ability to kill the boss on "normal" that week, can be reset and repeated, and no rewarded loot [maybe slap a NCP or Chieve to it]. That way people can learn the fight in a less stress situation, then switch it to "normal" and claim victory?

    However, I think all of that nonsense is moot if they went back to the Ulduar model. It was, and still is, their crowning PvE experience. It got most everything right from a design perspective. Early bosses were easy, later bosses were hard. None of the bosses were so hard on "normal" that most guilds at least made it to Yoggy. Most of the "Hardmodes" brought a completely different flavor to the fight. Several bosses had multiple levels of difficulty to pursue, along with "lets make this harder for fun" achievements.

    Trying to balance tiers within tiers and hope that people will view Heroic setting as natural progression [in essence, counting 7 bosses as 14] is foolish to me. Natural progression is what happens when you kill the last dude, the credits roll, and you feel good about thwarting a great evil. Sometimes, when a game is really good, you do want to go back through and collect all the Easter eggs. That is what Ulduar-esque "Hardmodes" are for. Still further, and fewer, people will want the fastest 100% completion of all measurable achievements [in the actual sense, not the DING achievement points sense]. That is what hardcore gamers are.

    The question is, has WoW content recently been compelling enough for most players to "beat the game" and still feel unsatisfied with not running through on "Nightmare?" Honestly? IMO, no. Perhaps that is a reflection of me getting older and just being worn out with PvE. However, I also think it is, at least partially, a consequence of the developers pushing "Heroic" modes as natural progression. Progression, yes, but not always natural.
    Last edited by Spiritus; 06-22-2011 at 11:07 AM.



  12. #32
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    Hehehe I saw what you did there at the last second. Nice and yes that is exactly what H-t12 will be.

  13. #33
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    I think nostalgia is clouding some people's judgements of how great the Ulduar hard modes were. While some where implemented in a good way some where even lamer than Atramedes which people are criticizing.

    Hodir and XT come to mind.

  14. #34
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    Haven't read any of the replies yet so I am probably repeating what a lot of people are saying.

    I have been saying since ICC hard modes opened that they need to go back to the way they were in ulduar. Especially the whole "UI setting changes to hard mode." That has been my biggest gripe with this whole thing, even on mimiron you at least had to push a button in the room so although the least inspired hard mode "activator" in ulduar, it was still interactive. Then you had thorim in which you actually needed a decent balance of ranged or you miss the timer and people on bottom so you could get right into phase 2 and not have to clean up the bottom when you jumped down. And of course missing hodir by 1-2 seconds was the most depressing thing ever but having that as a possibility really pushed people, that sense of urgency and drama when you had to make a decision at 10% to stop and wipe or really try to push and possibly miss it.


    Finally lore, I AM SO GLAD SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT IS OK TO NOT HAVE A HARD MODE OF EVERY SINGLE BOSS. But again I ask you this directly because every time I say that myself I always mention, "look at how the 239 loot was distributed off hard mode bosses. Plate hard a hard mode item in every slot by using mail and leather, resto druids stealing loot from clothies because a 239 leather int piece did not exist for that slot, etc etc"

    So here is my question for you, how do, if say firelands only had 3 hard modes, distribute loot on hard mode, just make everything only upgradable by firestones or whatever they are called and have hard modes only drop tier tokens?

    I fully support everything you said as I have been saying that same thing forever, but I can never figure out the loot distribution problem we saw so long ago.

    for reference: http://www.wowhead.com/items?filter=...0+8+13+1sorted by slot, you can see how many glaring holes there are for certain classes that classes of higher armor tiers could exploit by taking leather as plate for example because the holes were different across each armor class and spec.



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Predakhan View Post
    I think nostalgia is clouding some people's judgements of how great the Ulduar hard modes were. While some where implemented in a good way some where even lamer than Atramedes which people are criticizing.

    Hodir and XT come to mind.
    I cannot speak to others, but specifically, Hodir and XT are actually perfect representations of natural progression. Guess what? You guys are so good you blasted through the heart before the timer... guess you need a bigger challenge. You think you're good enough to ignore the help the fight gives you and burn Hodir? O'rly? Good luck.

    Now, I'm not talking about how "different" they were, but that they were a natural progression. You did them on the way to killing Yogg as a way to get some better loot and challenge yourself.

    That is a far cry from: "Congrats! You've beaten the game on normal! Now try INSANE mode! Now with 20% more difficulty!" You know when a game does that to me? I'm all like "Nah, I'm cool. Been there done that." But if the game was all like "Guess what! If you play through this part of the game again and are able to pull of X during it, you unlock an extra dimension of gameplay!" Then I'm all like "O'rly? That sounds like fun."

    Mimi was the exception to this, but it was done in such a whimsical way. My God, when you first saw the button, you pined for the moment you got to push it.



  16. #36
    That is a far cry from: "Congrats! You've beaten the game on normal! Now try INSANE mode! Now with 20% more difficulty!" You know when a game does that to me? I'm all like "Nah, I'm cool. Been there done that." But if the game was all like "Guess what! If you play through this part of the game again and are able to pull of X during it, you unlock an extra dimension of gameplay!" Then I'm all like "O'rly? That sounds like fun."
    But is that really any different, or just an extra layer of abstraction that really isn't very meaningful?

    Say, XT. Unless people killed it the very first time on hard mode, what's the difference? You kill XT on normal, do it again, do it a few more times, then later on you come back and "Hey, lets activate heroic mode this time." so you do. I guess it looks different, maybe feels a little different for some people, but it's really the same. I wouldn't call it a "far cry different" by any means.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    Say, XT. Unless people killed it the very first time on hard mode, what's the difference? You kill XT on normal, do it again, do it a few more times, then later on you come back and "Hey, lets activate heroic mode this time." so you do. I guess it looks different, maybe feels a little different for some people, but it's really the same. I wouldn't call it a "far cry different" by any means.
    It is different though. No not a far cry, but different in a subtle and I would argue substantive way. A recent watercooler blue post talked about similar things with regards to why rogues still have poisons and not some click buff. Many of the nostalgia arguments usually boil down to some form of immersion and therefore its easy to postulate that it's somewhat important to the game even if it feels contrived to some.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    I'm sorry, but you guys are just purposefully ignoring reality for the sake of complaining. Seriously.

    This, if any of the hard modes that added adds or extra adds had that as the only new mechanic, they would all be pushovers. Simple fact is there is so much more going on in all those fights that it is a lot more than adds.

    Also, to make this a very clear point for everyone wondering why they do not go back to ulduar: (sorry for the repetition but) http://www.wowhead.com/items?filter=...0+8+13+1sorted that distribution was the one stain on ulduar. Almost every warrior and ret paladin needed at least 2 leather items (or at least agi item be it a ring cape or neck + 1 leather armor peice) for their best in slot DPS set.



  19. #39
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    I would much rather right click a lever in an instance to make it harder by letting this radioactive goop give them superpowers than right click a context menu in the interface. That rationalises the difficulty change a lot better than simply saying "yeah, it's all harder now, hfgldd".

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Predakhan View Post
    I think nostalgia is clouding some people's judgements of how great the Ulduar hard modes were. While some where implemented in a good way some where even lamer than Atramedes which people are criticizing.

    Hodir and XT come to mind.
    I cannot speak to others, but specifically, Hodir and XT are actually perfect representations of natural progression. Guess what? You guys are so good you blasted through the heart before the timer... guess you need a bigger challenge. You think you're good enough to ignore the help the fight gives you and burn Hodir? O'rly? Good luck.

    Now, I'm not talking about how "different" they were, but that they were a natural progression. You did them on the way to killing Yogg as a way to get some better loot and challenge yourself.

    That is a far cry from: "Congrats! You've beaten the game on normal! Now try INSANE mode! Now with 20% more difficulty!" You know when a game does that to me? I'm all like "Nah, I'm cool. Been there done that." But if the game was all like "Guess what! If you play through this part of the game again and are able to pull of X during it, you unlock an extra dimension of gameplay!" Then I'm all like "O'rly? That sounds like fun."

    Mimi was the exception to this, but it was done in such a whimsical way. My God, when you first saw the button, you pined for the moment you got to push it.
    I could not agree more, xt and hodir and the 2 perfect examples of udluar hard modes showing just how far this game has devolved since then.



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