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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - The Problem with Hard Modes

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    The Weekly Marmot - The Problem with Hard Modes


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    that was a rather random intro :s

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    I know this sounds elitiest - but I'm still not sure why people don't want to jump into hard modes and don't want normal nerfed.

    And I say this as a player who was in those same shoes in ICC. We had a guild where not everyone did everything needed to progress - and I was frustrated with the pace being slow and the ICC buff coming in and not being able to complete ICC before the buff came into effect.

    Which is very nearly the same thing as a nerf - instead of the baseline being 30% lower, we were buffed 30% higher.

    And you know what - despite being frustrated that we weren't going to down the LK with no buff, we never once turned the buff off... I think this is a lot of complaining about the nerfs for no reason. The same complaining I did in ICC with the buff.

    What I wanted, and what I chose to do were out of sync.

    ****

    That being said - I think the SI7 op feature as a way to toggle is actually a fairly solid idea for how to seperate the camps. Rather than the buff (or nerf in this case) being automatic, it's togglable. That seems to be the best of all worlds. For players who just want the fight, toggle it on, for those that want to kill him without it (though lets be honest, if you kill him with anything more than 359 T11, it's the same thing, you're just rationalizing to yourself about not using the nerf). But the bottom line, it's a raid choice.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    ICC had a raid choice, did anyone actually use it to turn off the buff ?I don't think many did I'm pretty certain that Lore even mentioned in one of his other video's that he didn't think anyone had used it.

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    Lore you hit a few nails right on the head. The idea about making the nerfed version of Tier 11 content optional thought is just flat out stupid though....thats what we all hated about the ICC 30% buff, I mean sure its optional but why turn off something that saves you time?

    And yes the Heroic versions of content are going into the wrong direction at the moment and I dont understand why it isn't just reverted back to Ulduar style just like how we all liked it. I have yet to do a single Heroic in Cata since I"m casual and I do hear they are slightly more involved then the ones in ToC from what your saying not all of them are.

    Ulduar not all bosses had a Heroic mode which was fine and also they didn't drop a full set of another loot tier, only a few pieces, this is what really made Ulduar optional since it appealed more to those who just seriously wanted to minmax, it also made it so item level didn't inflate to ridiculous levels.

    Another flaw in Cata and even Wrath was the amount of raid content available at the beginning of the raid tier. Burning Crusade launched with Karazhan, Gruul's Layer, Magtheridon's Layer, Serpent Shrine Carvern, Tempest Keep, and I even think Hyjal. Granted most of that content was unfinished, overtuned etc, which pissed people off but it was still there, there was a progression path set and most people were tied down in Karazhan anyway. As time went on and Hardcore raiders moved on to that overtuned content it would be slowly tuned while Karazhan would be slowly nerfed. Overall the average raider had a whole lot of content to aspire to and Blizzard had loads of time to do Black Temple and Sunwell.

    Now were all sitting here out of things to do since only one tier was launched, and it seems like Firelands unlike Ulduar was barely even in the works during development of the xpac. I can only assume that Blizzard just had more time to get more into Burning Crusade due to the way Vanilla was set up with people reaching for Blues.

    Edit: I also remember when Blizzard announced the division between 25 and 10 man lockouts the promised more content to be raided in order to make up for the lack of being able to run the same raid twice, and though we all hated running the same raid twice it was still something to do.
    Last edited by Kahmal; 06-21-2011 at 09:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shwigetty View Post
    ICC had a raid choice, did anyone actually use it to turn off the buff ?I don't think many did I'm pretty certain that Lore even mentioned in one of his other video's that he didn't think anyone had used it.
    Of which I was part of (the group that didn't turn it off) - however the key difference is that was a opt-out and the idea here (and has been posted before by people previously in other marmot/pst threads) is it's an opt-in.

    Meaning rather than making it standard, it's optional. That's the distinction that might make it more effective?
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    Lore you hit a few nails right on the head. The idea about making the nerfed version of Tier 11 content optional thought is just flat out stupid though....thats what we all hated about the ICC 30% buff, I mean sure its optional but why turn off something that saves you time?
    Eeeh dude it's optional so like you don't have to turn it off ya know
    Every raid can decide for himself if they do or don't

    How can you hate something thats optional? You have a choice in the mather after all

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    I'm the kind of person that really doesn't care about "heroic" versions of anything. The only reason I do 5-man heroics is its part of progression. I'm perfectly fine with only doing normal mode raids.

    There was one thing Lore mentioned that I hope Blizzard takes into consideration. Have the option to having a buff or nerfing the content. I'm in a guild of various skill levels to say the least. I enjoy going through the raid and seeing everything. I don't care if its challenging or not for the most part as long as I can play with friends.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by HellRaver View Post
    Eeeh dude it's optional so like you don't have to turn it off ya know
    Every raid can decide for himself if they do or don't

    How can you hate something thats optional? You have a choice in the mather after all
    ^ pretty much exactly that, since there's been such a ruckus about the T11 nerfs it's kind of crazy that blizzard hasn't just gone ahead and made in an option.

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    I don't really see the problem. Anybody serious on killing T11 will have made significant progress in it by now. I would not go as far as to say T11 normal is "hard" as such, rather it is "tricky". I also do not see why guilds that simply cannot find the time to raid will benefit from the nerfs. The only people that will, in my opinion, benefit from these nerfs are those that are brick-walling on a boss like Cho'gall, Nefarian or Al'akir (and they are the ones that are likely to oppose the changes). Anybody desperate to see raiding content in it's pre-nerf state waited too long for T11 (they have, after all, had 6 1/2 months to knuckle down and get raiding).

    Only nerfing normal mode also opens up a whole new can of worms. A big gripe in the ToC days was the difference in difficulty between normal and heroic mode. Normal mode was a pushover - it was possible to clear 25n in about 20 minutes. You then spent the rest of the week getting your faces pounded into the ground by Gormokk and the Twin Jormugars, because the sheer amount of damage, both on the raid and the tanks, made heroic mode way too difficult when compared to normal mode. By nerfing T11 normal "to the ground" by reducing everything by 20% and removing instant kill mechanics like the Magmaw chains they are making the jump to heroic mode much harder to make.

  11. #11
    I know this sounds elitiest - but I'm still not sure why people don't want to jump into hard modes and don't want normal nerfed.
    Yeah, I just don't quite see this group that is being referred to here as being very large.

    I can safely say that I'm pretty sure I don't know anyone that is all of the below:

    1) Raiding "seriously" but still in normal modes.
    2) Honestly seeing said normal modes as a real challenge.
    3) Refusing to do heroics just out of principle, even though they've cleared/almost cleared normals.
    4) Honestly insulted by the idea that old content will be nerfed because it's still a challenge for them.
    5) Are serious enough raiders that they feel "content starved" right now.

    That just doesn't make any sense at all. There's no way anyone meets all those criteria, it's just crazy. I find it far more likely that people are just in the, "Complain to complain" group. That group is always pretty sizable no matter what Blizzard does.

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    I think they had it as close to perfect as possible during the Uld days. Individual hard modes that were generally well thought out and in most cases made the fights completely different and in four of the fights you could control how hard the hard mode was(i.e. x towers on FL or X lights Yogg). Not the "now has adds" thing that seems to be the go to now. In addition, I liked how they opened up new loot and not just the same junk with higher ilev that we have now but actual items that the only way you will see them is to do the hard modes.

    Now, as for the nerfing of current normal modes. Absolutely the right thing to do. You have to let those that have taken breaks, just started raiding and the casuals a way to catch up. There will be Ilev 378 valor items so unless you can keep your raiders away from them the "experience all the content as intended" argument just doesn’t hold water. You could make it so you could turn it off/on just please don’t make it like the hellscream buff that any tool can turn off.

    People look back on old content and somehow remember it as being way more accessible than it actually was. Out of classic and BC the only things that could be reliably pugged were Kara and to a lesser extent ZA. All the 40 man(and later 25) pugs would usually wipe on the first trash pull and then break up. I have no desire to go back to this. I saw all but the original Naxx while it was current content but so very many didn’t and I don’t think the casual player base would stand for the reversion.

  13. #13
    Not the "now has adds" thing that seems to be the go to now.


    I'm trying to think of what current heroic mode raid is only different in that it "now has adds".

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    I'm trying to think of what current heroic mode raid is only different in that it "now has adds".
    [/FONT]
    The ones I can think of off the top of my head that "now have add(s)" in Heroic mode are the following:

    Atramedes
    Magmaw
    Twin Dragons

    You could make an argument for Maloriak but I think the Dark Phase does more than just introduce more adds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    ^ pretty much exactly that, since there's been such a ruckus about the T11 nerfs it's kind of crazy that blizzard hasn't just gone ahead and made in an option.
    No one will use an optout (or in) for raids/heroics, if they get the same gear.

    You're waffling on pure logic.

    T11 is fine to be nerfed at this point. My GF's friend at work has been playing Rift because WoW got to hard and restrictive for casuals. She hates it but loves MMOs and want's to progress with friends and not get left in the dust of Cata. These girls are RNs and are not stupid or short of spare time. My GF has done fine but the other has not. It's a matter of getting into guilds and learning advanced levels of MMO play.

    Cockblocking players is a pointless and antiquated version of MMOs in this era.
    Last edited by Primernova; 06-22-2011 at 07:55 AM.

  16. #16
    The ones I can think of off the top of my head that "now have add(s)" in Heroic mode are the following:

    Atramedes
    Magmaw
    Twin Dragons
    Atramedes: The loss of extra gongs is the issue for this fight on heroic, not the adds.

    Magmaw: This one is pretty close, but the real change for most of the raid comes from the meteor impacts and flame trails on the floor adding to the mess.

    Twin Dragons: "There are adds" doesn't begin to address the issues introducted in this fight on heroic. If it was just normal with adds it would be a pushover fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Code_Man65 View Post
    The ones I can think of off the top of my head that "now have add(s)" in Heroic mode are the following:

    Atramedes
    Magmaw
    Twin Dragons

    You could make an argument for Maloriak but I think the Dark Phase does more than just introduce more adds.
    Nah you can safely throw maloriak and Conclave in there too. It's kind of stupid ... half of the new raids are: "More damage and adds." Yeah that DOES change the fight and indeed they can be punishing ... but it's definitely not ulduar.
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  19. #19
    Nah you can safely throw maloriak and Conclave in there too. It's kind of stupid ... half of the new raids are: "More damage and adds." Yeah that DOES change the fight and indeed they can be punishing ... but it's definitely not ulduar.
    I'm sorry, but you guys are just purposefully ignoring reality for the sake of complaining. Seriously.

  20. #20
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    Lore, you're spot-on. Heroic modes of the exact same content are no substitute for actual tiered raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tendric View Post
    I think they had it as close to perfect as possible during the Uld days.
    Agree completely. I always thought the HM Thorim trigger was the neatest mechanic. Hallway HURRY UP!

    Plus, the fact that many of them were non-binary really let you fine-tune your difficulty. Like in your examples of Yogg and FL, which particular keepers/towers you chose mattered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tendric View Post
    People look back on old content and somehow remember it as being way more accessible than it actually was.
    It's not that it was more accessible, it's that it was all still relevant. tBC had actual multiple tiers of raiding, instead of only the current tier and the current tier (heroic). More choice in difficulty level is a good thing.

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