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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Why Hardcore Players Need Casuals

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by StampyIRL View Post
    You guys have suggested quitting WoW and you've suggested guild-hopping (which, for most socially-oriented casuals would remove their whole reason for playing). This is exactly what has been happening. This is why it's getting tough to recruit. It's bad for the game.
    Exactly!

    I've seen casual guilds drop like flies on my server. Especially the casual raiding guilds.

    These guilds were the link between raw nooblets and the hardcore scene. I'll give you an example to illustrate the roll we filled. I remember a tank on my old server in wrath, back in the naxx days. He had done all the heroics (and most of the achievements). He wanted to raid. So we took him into Sarth +0. He was aweful. He couldn't hold aggro or do much of anything. Needless to say, people didn't want to raid with him again. I was an officer at the time and my guild leader tasked me to figure out WTF was going on. I talked specs and rotations with him and he seemed fine. I checked his gear, some crafted ilevel 200 and some heroic blues. I checked his heroic achievements and noticed he had done many of the harder ones. So, I figured out the problem was either internet connection or hardware. Turned out he only had a gig of ram!!! After getting more ram, he went on to become that guild's main tank and eventually left and went 10/12 HM ICC!!!

    I dunno if he would have solved his hardware issue or not on his own. Maybe, maybe not. I am sure that there have been thousands and thousands of players over the years who have been mentored in casual raiding guilds. These casual raiding guilds have been dying by the score in Cata.

    ~Alex

  2. #82
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    I am very hopeful that the nerfs to T11 will bring many of them back. My server is painfully backwards (we have maybe 8 guilds that have even a Cho'gal kill) ... but there's a small handful of these casual guilds who right now basically only run ICC waiting for firelands. They're actually quite excited to get to take meaningful cracks at T11 content now. I'm also excited to get my GDKP runs fired up again as well.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  3. #83
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    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylson View Post
    I liked PUGing. I got to run alts, have some relaxed fun, and meet new recruits (what application process can possibly compare to actual raid experience with a player?). I've met most of the people I raided with in PUGs.
    I liked Heroic dungeon PuGing. While it didn't offer raid experience, it, too, was a great way to meet new players and potential recruits. In fact, I'd argue it was better at doing that than raid PuGs as raids, especially the 25-mans, tended to be large and somewhat impersonal.

    Unfortunately, the RDF pretty much destroyed this in WoW. Is it any wonder (among other reasons) that guilds are having trouble recruiting? I often wonder how the newer players who started playing after the RDF's addition view the game. WoW used to be a game that felt like a sandbox game, even though it really wasn't. Now, though, with all this streamlining that has gone on, it feels more like a glorified, multi-million dollar lobby for instance runs.


    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded
    I am very hopeful that the nerfs to T11 will bring many of them back. My server is painfully backwards (we have maybe 8 guilds that have even a Cho'gal kill) ... but there's a small handful of these casual guilds who right now basically only run ICC waiting for firelands. They're actually quite excited to get to take meaningful cracks at T11 content now. I'm also excited to get my GDKP runs fired up again as well.
    My server (Sisters of Elune) was something like 212th out of 241 servers in WoWProgress during the ICC days. Our server first HLK kills didn't come until Nov 17 (25-man) and Nov 22 (10-man).

    I was in a progression oriented guild from February to May, when I had to stop playing WoW due to a combination of burnout and part-time school during full-time work. The guild fell apart a few weeks later. The reason, it seemed, was that despite being progression oriented (we were 4th or 5th on the server at the time) and despite most of our players having significant skill, many players were lazy and usually only showed up on the first raid night when we downed all the "easy" bosses for the phat lwetz. On progression nights, when we'd wipe for hours on the wing bosses, a lot of people wouldn't show up, and after a while the guild just dissolved due to lack of interest. And it wasn't like the GL and officers could recruit better players, as there was a general dearth of raiders on the server (this, incidentally, is why the premiere raiding guild on our server had left the server shortly after 3.3).

    Did I mention this occurred on a server that was ~212th out of 241 in WoWProgress raiding, with very little real raiding opportunities, a lack of decent raiders, and during ICC normal modes with at least a +10% buff?

    The point here is, some servers just don't have decent raiders / raiding opportunities. You cannot blame players' lethargy on the difficulty of the content. Even now, Sisters of Elune is 229th on WoW Progress with only 10 guilds doing hard modes, and most of these are the "easy" hard modes, like Halfus and Atramedes, and no one higher than 7/13.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylson View Post
    I dunno if he would have solved his hardware issue or not on his own. Maybe, maybe not. I am sure that there have been thousands and thousands of players over the years who have been mentored in casual raiding guilds. These casual raiding guilds have been dying by the score in Cata.

    ~Alex
    I'm seeing this on my server. Top players from casual guilds on my server have been migrating to the hardcore raiding guilds and the casual raiding guilds are dropping like flies. Now, a raiding guild is pretty much hardcore by definition, and a casual guild is just a random assortment of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Cat View Post
    I was in a progression oriented guild from February to May, when I had to stop playing WoW due to a combination of burnout and part-time school during full-time work. The guild fell apart a few weeks later. The reason, it seemed, was that despite being progression oriented (we were 4th or 5th on the server at the time) and despite most of our players having significant skill, many players were lazy and usually only showed up on the first raid night when we downed all the "easy" bosses for the phat lwetz. On progression nights, when we'd wipe for hours on the wing bosses, a lot of people wouldn't show up, and after a while the guild just dissolved due to lack of interest. And it wasn't like the GL and officers could recruit better players, as there was a general dearth of raiders on the server (this, incidentally, is why the premiere raiding guild on our server had left the server shortly after 3.3).
    Man, this sounds like a familiar pattern......

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Cat View Post
    Did I mention this occurred on a server that was ~212th out of 241 in WoWProgress raiding, with very little real raiding opportunities, a lack of decent raiders, and during ICC normal modes with at least a +10% buff?

    The point here is, some servers just don't have decent raiders / raiding opportunities. You cannot blame players' lethargy on the difficulty of the content. Even now, Sisters of Elune is 229th on WoW Progress with only 10 guilds doing hard modes, and most of these are the "easy" hard modes, like Halfus and Atramedes, and no one higher than 7/13.
    I'll agree. Some servers just have a "deeper bench" than others, but still, casual raiding guilds are getting beat up. I can understand in some cases. We lost our MT due to the guild just not pulling itself together. Of course, the flip side of this was, he tried to turn the casual raiding guild into a hard core. We had a lot of people that "wanted" to raid, but very few who wanted to RAID.

    At the end of the day, it was a simple lack of desire. People weren't piecing together gear, or were waiting to get just one more piece, or wanted to join an established raid group that didn't exist, or some other half-hearted thing instead of JUST DOING IT.

    The only way I've had any success getting the remnants mobilized is by saying, "I AM going raiding at this time on this date and if you want to come, be here.... otherwise... I'll go pug the damn thing with anyone on the server who wants to go."
    No one tanks in a void.........

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
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    25
    At the risk of beating a dead horse, this week's Officer's Quarters post on WoW Insider is examplary of the reason why myself and many others don't think the T11 nerfs are a good idea: it's essentially rewarding the players who are being complained about. Have a gander at the comments section after the article as well; there's an awful lot of players who unfortunately have similar experiences.

  6. #86
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    Jul 2011
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    It seems to me that people are missing the crux of the argument raised by Lore, why hardcore players need casuals. In every casual player is a hardcore player waiting to come out, just depends on how the individual wants to progress through their gaming experience, it’s not a certainty just the potential. People come and go in the game, it’s a natural thing, new replace old, it’s like a nations job market you need the young blood filtering through, you need the experienced players and you need the veterans. The health of the game depends on a dynamic system.

    The arguments seem to boil down to casual vs hardcores each stating their case for how the game should be played and what yard stick to measure success, I felt that Lore was trying to point out these two are not mutual exclusive attitudes and can easily coexist, cooperate, play together and even depend on each other.

    The difference between a hardcore and casual player has nothing to do with time they have available to play, how skilled they are, or their particular focus within the game. The difference is attitude, a casual player generally brings a casual attitude, more relaxed about how the game is played and less tuned to the more difficult elements in the game. A hard core player brings more of a serious/professional attitude (meaning no insult to casual players out there) where success is defined by excellence in the games most difficult modes.

    There will a lot or players in the grey areas (casual raiders for example some may be very professional but not adhere to all the tenants of what is considered to be hardcore) and it would be difficult to quantify the boundaries exactly, because each player holds themselves to different standards as do the social groups they associate with.

    I can only speak for myself and what I observed of the players reactions around me, but Blizzard removed large elements of the game that made playing with a casual attitude fun.

    • The 10 to 25 shared lockouts was death to our pug runs, we could no longer associate with the hardcore players as fill-ins on there less than serious recruiting runs. A excellent learning experience was lost, a social group of friends who no longer had anything in common to keep them together. This was a big part of the WoW raiding experience for casuals, being able to hop onto a 25 man easily and quickly and then being forced to sink or swim (kicked), you learned as a casual certain things where not tolerated and there was almost always someone else available to fill in.
    • The RDF while on paper appears excellent, I found it less enjoyable in practical application and it seemed to increase the attitudes of intolerance (players leaving group on only a few wipes, abuse for people who are not so skilled etc). While it was harder the old way to get groups for dungeons together and flying to the dungeon, it gave a strange sense of depth, I know it sounds weird on paper but having experience both, I think I prefer the earlier system, although 5 minute flight times suck.
    • Guild Group Rewards, this one has me baffled, I loved the idea of rewarding guild groups but it too seemed to add to the change in attitudes towards pugs runs and non-guild friends co-operation was reduced. I think the combination of this and shared lockouts was a mistake.
    • The levelling experience is a joke now, you can blast through the levels in no time, skipping heaps of content. Then smash dungeons hard until your minimum item level for raids. The speeding up of that process 80 to 85 and into raids while awesome for actually getting into raids, took to much depth from the game (from my point of view). Personally for me it’s the journey that counts, I want the investment into the game, I want the history in my character to be able to look back on my achievements and smile. No wander some people have no clue what there doing and their wearing epics. I don’t want to sounds like saying the grind is good but not having to earn my gear, and learn how to play is just as bad.
    • Homogenization - give it up blizzard, life is not fair and trying to perfectly balance a system so diverse to please everyone is quite frankly a ridiculous waste of time. Overdoing homogenization restricts flavour, character, depth, uniqueness and overall is a negative effect on the feel of the gaming world. So what if you need a Druid for the battle rez or a shaman for the heroism in each raid, it was at best a slight annoyance needing specific classes to do specific tasks, but that was also apart of the allure of that class. This goes for pvp too, just suck it up blizzard and set different standards from pvp to pve, just make those standards more fun than they are annoying.
    Its been my experience that in the past hardcore players are more than willing to assist casuals and work together co-operatively, there was always disagreements and abuse at times, but nothing like we have experienced this xpac. Something has changed that has drastically effected the cohesion.

    Casual players are leaving because it’s quite simply not that much fun anymore. The homogenization of classes, loss of depth in game play, less social interaction and changes in game mechanics - RDF, raid lockouts, etc - have had a negative impact for some casual players. Combined that with the raid content difficulty levels being just a little tuned to the harder side (by itself not really an issue but with the other problems, it has proven to be a catalyst).

    Somehow Blizzards changes, as a whole, have worked together to remove the depth from the game, the game seems to be evolving into a competitive team based environment, teleport here kill that, skip this boss, progression progression progression, the elements of the social gaming experience are being lost. For me progression must go hand in hand with the lore/journey, there needs to be a reason more so than just getting better gear, there needs to be that depth of play and atmosphere along with push for progression, as a casual I find there are plenty of other games out there that offer the challenge and depth of story/atmosphere.

    Some changes were absolutely brilliant, take achievements for example, at first I didn't think much of them but from a social point of view they are brilliant measure of success. But these too suffer from homogenization, I read somewhere in a blue post that blizzard didn't want to give achievements for soloing a raid boss because some classes (DKs) are far better at it than others, what a ridiculous reason not to do it. The game does not have to be fair, its a game if someone wants the achievement with a character not suited for it then its just a bigger challenge and more rewarding, if they don't have the skill or it is practically impossible then bad luck, roll a DK to have fun doing that. (Please note my main is/was a Priest I would have seriously struggled but it would have been fun trying).

    For me, I left the game because there seemed to me to be an increase in the levels of intolerance, for example; if you didn’t take doing a dungeon or a raid seriously you were a bad player. I had the skill to keep up and while I only had about 10 hours a week max to give to wow, I still enjoyed it and was really looking forward to the raiding content. I hit a brick wall though, my guilds ability to function successfully and enjoyably as a casual guild had greatly diminished by all the changes from Wrath to Cata. If I wanted to continue I had to change guilds and servers, which was my personal final straw.

    I don’t think blizzard should bring back the good old days they are trying to refine and improve the game, attract new players and keep the old. It is yet to be seen if the game will suffer from the casual player decline to the point of failure, I seriously doubt it, but if they want the casual player back, then they need to rethink what held those individuals in the game in the first place.

    Finally, this is just my opinion and in no way reflects the opinions of all casual players. I am sure I am off the mark about a few things and I have made many many mistakes and social fau'pars in the game. But my perception has lead me to leaving the game because it was simply was not worth the effort, I would like to return but not in the games current format.
    Last edited by Taer; 07-01-2011 at 06:46 PM.

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