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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Why Hardcore Players Need Casuals

  1. #61
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    I like your shows and most of the time, I find myself in complete agreement with you. With all due respect (and not to get into a whole casual-definition thing), I think you and Blizzard are both putting too much emphasis on beginners.

    This game is nearly seven years old, and a large portion of the so-called "casual" crowd aren't beginners. They're experienced players who either they have a very casual attitude, or have very limited play time. Each and every patch it seems there is less and less for these players to enjoy. I have a feeling that these players are the ones leaving.

    The problem with raid content for many of these players isn't difficulty. The problem is organizing a group of busy people to all play at the same time. A busy real life is not an excuse to suck, but it does mean you have a small window of opportunity group up and raid with friends.

    The nerfs to normal modes don't address this at all. They still have the same scheduling problems they always had, only now the content has been rendered pointless. Good casual content doesn't need to be easy, as long as it doesn't involve a time commitment. Raid content will never be ideal for these people, no matter how easy it is.

  2. #62
    The problem with raid content for many of these players isn't difficulty. The problem is organizing a group of busy people to all play at the same time. A busy real life is not an excuse to suck, but it does mean you have a small window of opportunity group up and raid with friends.
    I think most people understand this, but at what point do we just start saying that we're not going to devote a lot of development time to people who claim they never have time to log in.

    I understand people have schedules, but when people start complaining that they don't have time to sit down to raid, they don't have time to sit down to do heroics, they don't have time to sit down and do BG's or Arena or whatever...when do we finally just say to them, "Look, maybe WoW - and frankly gaming in general - just isn't for you if you really don't have time to sit down and do....well, anything."

  3. #63
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    And at the same time isn't it easier to form a group if your standards are lowered?

    Which takes more time commitment?

    /2 LF 358 iLevel tank for 10M Nefarian.
    or
    /2 LF 340 iLevel tank for 10M Nefarian.

    If the requirement to do the content is lowered, naturally the time commitment spent both organizing and executing the content is reduced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    I understand people have schedules, but when people start complaining that they don't have time to sit down to raid, they don't have time to sit down to do heroics, they don't have time to sit down and do BG's or Arena or whatever...when do we finally just say to them, "Look, maybe WoW - and frankly gaming in general - just isn't for you if you really don't have time to sit down and do....well, anything."
    That pretty much sums up that.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  4. #64
    Which takes more time commitment?

    /2 LF 358 iLevel tank for 10M Nefarian.
    or
    /2 LF 340 iLevel tank for 10M Nefarian.

    If the requirement to do the content is lowered, naturally the time commitment spent both organizing and executing the content is reduced
    Yeah, but you know the exact opposite will happen. It always does, new content = higher level gear = people act like you need that new gear to do old content. (Remember Karazhan?)

    Now: /2 LF 358 iLevel tank for 10M Nefarian.

    4.2: /2 LF 372 iLevel tank for 10M Nefarian.

    Then they'll sit in trade complaining, "It takes too long to put raids together! Blizzard, fix it!"

  5. #65
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    I'm operating under the assumption the raid leader has an I.Q. in the double digits. Many don't, I know.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  6. #66
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    I'd like to point that even these nerfs will NOT prevent wipes. The mechanics will still require people to pay attention.

    People not switching to slimes, even if they hit for 20% less, will still wipe groups if they hit people in a pile. Maggots will still munch groups. Not handling rodeo right will still kill the tank. Not moving will still make you reach max sound/corruption. Standing too close to caustic slimes will still kill people.

    The mechanics are all still there, each fight still has mechanics that will wipe raids in a heartbeat.

    All the nerfs do is make it less likely, not prevent it. Players who still don't move will die. Raids with players who don't move will still wipe. But raids with players who try to raid, but don't have either the experience, or the kick in the pants needed to make that jump from 'I'm just playing to have fun' to 'Oh, it really isn't tough to raid' will see some benefit.

    ...

    And unfortunately, Bov is right - just like pug groups in ICC with the 30% buff... "25m ICC, goal is first wing, 5800+ GS Only!" *sigh*
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    As the former guildmaster of a casual raiding guild, I wanted to jump in here. I want to say that I agree very much with Lore.


    Anyway, most of my friends have left the game behind in the last 3 months, probably never to return.

    ~Alex

    PPS...If you are so good that nerfs offend you, then work on heroics.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    I'm operating under the assumption the raid leader has an I.Q. in the double digits
    =FALSE!

    sadly

    The "raid leaders" motivation for forming a pug is simple. They either suck to much to get in a raid, or they do not have experience with raiding so they cannot get in a raid. Either way, most of the time the "raid leader" will get to a boss and say "OK WHO KNOWS THIS FIGHT EXPLAIN IT TO EVERYONE"

    then the 9 other people will all have done it a different way in there 9 different pugs last week and the raid leader picks the worst one, they wipe, and the 8 people whose strat you did not use all start arguing and then leave the raid because you did not pick their way of doing it



  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    They either suck to much to get in a raid, or they do not have experience with raiding so they cannot get in a raid.
    This isn't necessarily true. I pug because the guild I'm in only does one run of the current raids and they have me healing. Which means if I want my hunter, DK, pally, and priest to get some raiding - I'm gonna have to pug. And since no one on my server has been running any pugs, I get to raid lead. woo. -.-

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    I understand people have schedules, but when people start complaining that they don't have time to sit down to raid, they don't have time to sit down to do heroics, they don't have time to sit down and do BG's or Arena or whatever...when do we finally just say to them, "Look, maybe WoW - and frankly gaming in general - just isn't for you if you really don't have time to sit down and do....well, anything."
    It's not that they don't have time to game - it's that they don't all have exactly the same time to game together as a group. Heroics and BGs were fine until they redesigned them for the beginner.

    Anyways, mostly my point was I think these "casual raiders" that Lore glossed over in the Marmot are actually a significant portion of the player base. I have no statistical evidence to support this, it's just a hunch based on logic and experience.

    Plus... nerfing content is actually bad for the beginners, too. Mr. Repair Bill is an excellent instructor. How can you teach someone not to stand in fire if the fire doesn't actually burn them?

  11. #71
    It's not that they don't have time to game - it's that they don't all have exactly the same time to game together as a group. Heroics and BGs were fine until they redesigned them for the beginner.
    Then find people who do have the time. Unless someone is saying, "I will ONLY raid with these people!" then there's always someone who can raid on their schedule.

    Plus... nerfing content is actually bad for the beginners, too. Mr. Repair Bill is an excellent instructor. How can you teach someone not to stand in fire if the fire doesn't actually burn them?
    People will stand in fire no matter how much damage it does. It's more a matter of attitude than anything else.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    Then find people who do have the time. Unless someone is saying, "I will ONLY raid with these people!" then there's always someone who can raid on their schedule.
    It seems like you're reading my words as, "I can't raid because I'm too busy."

    This is not true, nor did I mean to imply it.

  13. #73
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    What Bov was saying is that if your current guild cannot field a raid due to irreconcilable schedules and you really want to raid, maybe you need to find a different guild.

  14. #74
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    I really should know better, but I'll give it one more try:

    I like Lore. I usually agree with Lore.

    In the last two Marmots, I question Lore's street cred with respect to casual gamers. Sure, he remembers being a beginner, but I doubt he's ever really had a casual attitude.

    These days, Blizzard is trying to squish everyone together into the same raid tier. The problem with this is that not everyone likes the same things.

    For casual raiders, raiding is all about socializing. It's about getting together with your good friends maybe once or twice a week, and doing something epic together. We don't need the best gear. We don't care about world firsts. We just want to have something interesting to do on that one night that we can actually get together. The nerfs are bad for casuals because it reinforces this current tier = only tier design.

    You guys have suggested quitting WoW and you've suggested guild-hopping (which, for most socially-oriented casuals would remove their whole reason for playing). This is exactly what has been happening. This is why it's getting tough to recruit. It's bad for the game.

  15. #75
    For casual raiders, raiding is all about socializing. It's about getting together with your good friends maybe once or twice a week, and doing something epic together. We don't need the best gear. We don't care about world firsts. We just want to have something interesting to do on that one night that we can actually get together. The nerfs are bad for casuals because it reinforces this current tier = only tier design.
    See, this doesn't make sense. If raiding is just about the socializing, then why do you care if the content is nerfed or not? If it's not about gear and world firsts and etc etc, then what's the difference? You can still go and do the same stuff and have the same socialization and you don't need to go do the new tier or anything else.

  16. #76
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    The Weekly Marmot - Why Hardcore Players Need Casuals

    I'd just like to say, that it makes me feel warm and fuzzy that you need people like me. Hugs all round. :-)

  17. #77
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    Important topic.

    We had a large social guild (Fossils of War - Shattered Hand), and partnered with a raid guild (Seeds of Despair) since we entered MC together in Spring 2005. We were dropping LK in 2010, but in Caty we never raided together at all. The Seeds (raiders) were successful early in Caty, but quit the game cold turkey in Spring 11. The few Fossils (casuals) that now want to raid are left to pug. Nobody is jumping guilds, we are bored or quitting Wow. Maybe our guild roles make if easier for me to see the problem Wow now has. Anyway my WOT:

    I see a situation where all the VIPs realize they are the only ones allowed in da club and it's no longer fun for anyone. This happened when the 10s locked out the 25s.



    Categorizing the casuals is really the wrong way to look at it. The categories that matter are among the hardcore players where there are two: Leaders and Skilled Players. Leaders do the invites and calm people down. Skilled players drive the vehicles and top charts. Together they form a successful and tight group. These are the VIPs and probably officers in most guilds. Dropping stuff in hardmode 10s has never been easier. But what the heck do you do with a guild that ends up being all officers? Or a club that only invites VIPs? You get bored and leave.

    What we have lost is the need and place for casuals. No longer do you need to maintain an invite list of an extra 15 players to fill out a 25.

    Back in the 40s days you had to filll out slots and could not even track everyone. In 25s things were more manageable, but you still had to invite casuals. Usually the ones from the front of the line showing off their new shoes and necklaces-eses, got pocketfull of pots, and screaming about how they finally studied the encounters (This was me btw. I put crazy time in the game but never got skill. I miss the invites).

    What to Do: Bring back 25s and 40s with better gear and a separate lock. Also, setup the encounters so that the casuals can be helpful instead of wiping the raid because they muggled their bite order. Oh and some shiny content to first get everyone back.

    /WOT

  18. #78
    What to Do: Bring back 25s and 40s with better gear and a separate lock. Also, setup the encounters so that the casuals can be helpful instead of wiping the raid because they muggled their bite order. Oh and some shiny content to first get everyone back.
    /me points at T11 in 4.2

    There you go. Content that's not super-punishing and on a separate lockout.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    /me points at T11 in 4.2

    There you go. Content that's not super-punishing and on a separate lockout.
    Exactly what I've been railing about this whole time. FINALLY we have more content. FINALLY on a different lockout. FINALLY something for the non-VIPs to do. Of course for some reason this isn't good enough for everyone who's bitching about it.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post

    The "raid leaders" motivation for forming a pug is simple. They either suck to much to get in a raid, or they do not have experience with raiding so they cannot get in a raid. Either way, most of the time the "raid leader" will get to a boss and say "OK WHO KNOWS THIS FIGHT EXPLAIN IT TO EVERYONE"
    Maybe you are the one who stinks, at PUGing.

    I liked PUGing. I got to run alts, have some relaxed fun, and meet new recruits (what application process can possibly compare to actual raid experience with a player?). I've met most of the people I raided with in PUGs.

    ~Alex

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