+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 86

Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Why Hardcore Players Need Casuals

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    262
    The problem is: the game does a piss-poor job of teaching the players how to play. And the worst thing is: you don´t need to know. Just rolling your head over all your abilities will get you to max-level anyways. But the problem is, at some point - that used to be dungeons/hard group quests and later at least heroic dungeons - the players need to learn the basics of the game or they´ll never be able to beat raid-encounters. But Blizzard is just pushing the point where "just playing somehow" doesn´t cut it anyomre further and further away, increasing the step players have to make at once instead of providing many small steps along the way.

    This is why are at a point where basically new content has to be on the same level as the one before, because people never learned how to beat something that is a little bit more challenging than what they have done before. Those people will never be able to "progress" individually to a point where they could take on more difficult challenges (like raids, like hardmodes). It is a dead-end.

  2. #22
    Those people will never be able to "progress" individually to a point where they could take on more difficult challenges (like raids, like hardmodes). It is a dead-end.
    And I'm firmly convinced that its their choice. There is such a glut of information out there now and mechanics/stats aren't nearly as obscure as they've been in the past. If someone is level 85 and still doesn't know the basics of their class and doesn't take 5 minutes to at least google something or ask other players or just do *something* to better themselves, then there's really no excuse.

    People don't fail because the game is super hard - there's no big thought-invoking puzzles or mechanics that demand extreme korean Starcraft player twitch-reactions and 5000 APM - people fail because they're not applying themselves, they're simply not trying.

    It's not the content, it's not because quests are too easy or raids are too hard, none of that really matters.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    723
    And I'm firmly convinced the T11 nerfs are going to be a godsend to my server. Right now the few surviving "casual" guilds are raiding ICC because the T11 stuff is too hard for them. That's pretty terrible, all things considered, but its a very backwards server. We *need* easy raid content for those guilds to consume to keep the chain of recruits flowing to the upper level guilds that can hack the current content. I know this chain is invisible on strong servers but it's painfully obvious on the weaker ones. Recruiting relies on the endless chain of players bubbling up from the very bottom to the very top ... it's very similar to the predator-prey relationship in nature. You need 10,000 Bads/Casuals/whatever to support 1000 casual raiders to support 100 hardcore raiders ... or whatever the relationship may be.

    On my server everyone is hurting because a massive swath of the casuals bailed when they lost access to their easy-raid experience. There's no pugging, there's no GDKP runs, there's nothing but the 5-10 active guilds who can clear the content who are keeping at it. At each tier of the guilds there's been a painful amount of attrition because there's no one to recruit. Its the same food chain as nature ... no the eagles and tigers may not directly eat the bottom-tier of food but if anything affects that tier they sure feel it. Ask anyone on a more backwards server and they will have no doubt observed similar issues.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  4. #24
    Ask anyone on a more backwards server and they will have no doubt observed similar issues.
    I'm probably on one of the most backwater servers possible! Very small place. People still wiping in ICC!

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    723
    Oh I never said this will make everyone better players ... I don't care about that. It will simply enable the few good ones, or I should say the few ones who have the potential to become good, to even discover that potential. Everyone starts somewhere and the more transition points you give people the easier it is to bubble up. I would have never ended up raiding if MC and ZG weren't easymode ... BWL was simply way too much for any guild I could have rightfully joined back then because I was terribad. I learned though, discovered in the easy stuff that raiding was super-fun and then pushed myself to become better. Some new person walking into WoW today needs the tools to write the same narrative ... and until 4.2 and the tier 11 nerfs I'm of the opinion they just don't exist.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Williamsburg, VA
    Posts
    719
    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    It will simply enable the few good ones, or I should say the few ones who have the potential to become good, to even discover that potential.
    I think what bothers me about this frame of thought is that not all players want to be good. I know that sounds strange, but not everyone operates under a skill-based value system.

    This is, in my opinion, the best example of faulty logic in the WoW community. We have a very one-dimensional perception of what it means to be a "good" player, and it seems to fit neatly into the model of raiding/PvP. We assume that someone more skilled at the game isn't just more skilled, but a better player.

    The fact is, World of Warcraft is partially such an appealing game because it's not supposed to be that one-dimensional. The reason Blizzard hasn't started giving people guided tours through raids is because that would enforce the notion that raiding (or Arena/RBGs) are the "point" of the game. While I'm glad raiding is being made easier to get into for players that want to raid, I do think the game is headed toward a point where the content is extremely limited. There's an entire group of people that run maybe one heroic a week, and enjoy just sitting around mining or talking in guild or ganking lowbies or farming low level instances or seeing how big of a crit they can get or any number of things that have nothing whatsoever to do with our idea of "skill". Many of them have never posted on blizzard forums, haven't heard of mmo-champion or tankspot unless they need it for the occasional pug, and we are trying to make them adhere to a system totally irrelevant to their style of play.

    If anything is killing WoW's userbase, I do honestly think it's the trend of the game becoming increasingly focused on two simple aspects--endgame raiding and endgame pvp. To some of us, it's always felt like that. But to people for whom raiding has simply never been an interest, they have less to do at max level than ever before.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    723
    Oh I can agree with you completely papa. I was simply stating why it's important to the hardcore players that the casual players have some raid content. I was not saying or even trying to imply that hardcore endgame raiding is the only logical conclusion for players who start out as neophytes with no clue. I've said it elsewhere that I firmly believe this is the worst expansion yet in terms of things to do. The statistic I mathed out was that when Cataclysm hit I leveled my priest in ~20 hours that night/day and I completed ~75% of the quests in the expansion. Compare that to WotLK where it took you ~40 hours played and you completed about 40% of the quests in the expansion. That alone is rather telling on the amount of content we got this expansion. I completely support your premise and I sincerely hope they rectify it since I do believe that content for everyone is important.

    Heck even the raiders are largely complaining about a lack of things to do when not raiding. Levelling alts is nowhere near as fun and rewarding ... specially if most of your alts are already 80. Just as you are about to get into your character its over ... its just too fast. And lack of quests isn't the only problem ... just one of them. The raids this tier were fantastic amounts of fun. Everything else was sorely underwhelming. But that's off topic.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1

    Thank you

    Thank you for this blog. i feel this is exactly what is needed in wow at this time. i started wow 1 year ago leveling a holy priest (no off-spec as i couldnt raise 1000g) with no idea what i was doing. i joined my current guild and went into icc still without any real idea and we progressed together.

    During cata i am raiding heroics and leading raids with pugs and guild runs all because someone gave me a chance and taught me some simple adjustments to my playing style.

    I would just like to see some more torlerance for people who either are just beggining or in full 346/353 gear because we were all at that stage at one point in time.

    Thanks for a really nice video

    Steffanni

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by Papapaint View Post
    If anything is killing WoW's userbase, I do honestly think it's the trend of the game becoming increasingly focused on two simple aspects--endgame raiding and endgame pvp. To some of us, it's always felt like that. But to people for whom raiding has simply never been an interest, they have less to do at max level than ever before.
    Ignoring raiding and pvp, what has there ever been to do at max level? In vanilla there wasn't even daily quests. In BC there were (hard) heroics and some dailies. In WOTLK there were easy heroics, dailies, and achievements. In Cata there's a granular scale of difficulty in dungeons from normals -> heroics -> ZA/ZG, dailies, archeology, and achievements. I think there's more for the non-endgame raider/pvper to do in Cata than there has ever been. Not that I find any of that appealing, but if your idea of end game is finding your own amusement in random places of the game that I'd never think of, there's nothing stopping you from doing that in Cata if you were able to do it in vanilla, BC, or WOTLK.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    471
    It really takes someone to point you in the right direction to get better. I can remember when I was leveling my first toon during wrath when another warrior spent about 30 minutes teaching me about warrior abilities. I never played an MMO since Ultima Online came out in the late 90;s (I think). Other players taught me about vent, add ons, macros, etc...I found this site and learned of other sites by web browsing. My first guild was in wrath and couldn't do BC content because they were not a raiding guild. First content I tried with a real raiding guild was Naxx. Today I'm a core raider 5/13 HM currently. I spend time answering any questions people have because we all start somewhere.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Williamsburg, VA
    Posts
    719
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurrr View Post
    Ignoring raiding and pvp, what has there ever been to do at max level? In vanilla there wasn't even daily quests. In BC there were (hard) heroics and some dailies. In WOTLK there were easy heroics, dailies, and achievements. In Cata there's a granular scale of difficulty in dungeons from normals -> heroics -> ZA/ZG, dailies, archeology, and achievements. I think there's more for the non-endgame raider/pvper to do in Cata than there has ever been. Not that I find any of that appealing, but if your idea of end game is finding your own amusement in random places of the game that I'd never think of, there's nothing stopping you from doing that in Cata if you were able to do it in vanilla, BC, or WOTLK.
    Engame raiding in vanilla was nothing like endgame raiding now, or even in TBC. IIRC, a majority of the playerbase in vanilla never made it to max level, even with moderately constant login times (some statistics I remember seeing from WotLK release). On top of that, there wasn't really much pressure to be involved with raiding; there was plenty of 5-man content, solo quest lines, farming, and most of it had a very heavy emphasis on connections to lore.

    In TBC, the introduction of daily quests and plenty of enjoyable 5-man content, as well as somewhat streamlined leveling and abilities, gave casual players more to do than ever before. Almost everything from vanilla was improved in some way, and it was a tremendous introduction of new content. WotLK took it even further, and the introduction of achievements added quite a large amount of fairly useless stuff to do for fun. Cata, however, added almost nothing to this formula. The leveling path is extremely linear, the gearing path has become somewhat blatantly obvious, and the new achievements tend to be primarily focused around raiding, pvp, or heroic 5-man content. Add to this the fact that Archaeology is really the only significant lore outside of a few large quest chains, and that even to an extremely casual player, Arch. is really just a long, tedious grind that is totally lacking in depth.

    That being said, I'm not blaming blizzard. I think the fault lies in two places--an aging game losing dimensions, and the vocal playerbase insisiting that the game be played a certain way or follow a certain path.

    When you say
    "Not that I find any of that appealing, but if your idea of end game is finding your own amusement in random places of the game that I'd never think of, there's nothing stopping you from doing that in Cata if you were able to do it in vanilla, BC, or WOTLK."
    I think you quite miss the point. You're approaching it from the perspective of an endgame raider looking at what non-raiders can do, and it's automatically dismissive. Previously, there was plenty of engaging content that didn't require players to find their "own amusement." Netherwing dailies promised a cool mount for little to no work. Travel was an integral part of the game, and was very appealing to many players. Niche roles gave many players a sense of individuality. I'm not talking full-blown RP here, just players who enjoyed WoW as an immersive environment that provided a certain level of virtual reality.

    Now, everything in the game has been streamlined for the benefit of endgame raiders/pvpers. Leveling is easier, classes are more streamlined and homogenized, travel has been all but removed from the game completely (try putting a 5 man dungeon run together and telling everyone to fly there!). I don't think these are necessarily bad things, but I too am coming from the perspective of an endgame raider. The game lacks depth and immersion, and we are trending towards a situation where our characters really aren't much more than sticks with numbers.

    Before you respond with a knee-jerk reaction dismissing the choices other players make in playing the game, consider this: it's easier to get into raiding and endgame content than ever before. The game has never been friendlier to new players than it is now. And yet, subscriptions are declining. Sure, some of that can be attributed to long-time players seeking new games, but certainly not all (or even most, considering a huge portion of the new subscriptions/resubscribers came towards the end of wrath/beginning of cata) of it.

    We have removed much of what made WoW... well, a world. Part of the appealing nature of the game was that there was so much unknown to it. As strange as it sounds, a player joining a group and saying "wait, how do I get to setthek halls from area 52" is actually significantly more engaging and creates the illusion of a world more effectively than joining a group and clicking "teleport".

    I'm not saying that's the main change, it's simply a convenient example. However, all of the trends in the game changes have been towards making it a more streamlined and--above all--LINEAR experience.

    In fact, this video can be applied fairly well to the state of WoW right now, in my honest opinion. "We thought of [leveling as a] journey, with a serious purpose at the end... but we missed the point the whole way along..."

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    723
    Sigh. You hit me where it hurts Papa, mostly because you're absolutely right. I get the impression blizzard is in fact somewhat aware of this when I read the recent watercooler discussion (or whatever it was) about why they don't want to take away Rogue poisons by turning them into a click buff (because it would eliminate the need to ever visit the shady dealer, who's usually in a shady part of town). Indeed all of this streamlining has not been without cost. I rail against the dungeon finder because of what it did to my server community but in the next breath I'll happily concede how much it has helped nearly everyone gear up. Of course the cost of these things is nearly impossible to discern before it's too late. You could no sooner remove the dungeon finder than you could remove flying mounts.

    As for Vanilla wow ... levelling was a massive journey that took incredible amounts of time compared to the current tier. The record 1-60 was just under 6 days played whereas the norm was much more like 10-12. These days the entire 1-85 experience can be done in less than 3 days by normal people ... not some speed leveller. Again ... something has been lost ... a whole lot of the journey has been forfeit in the name of shoving everyone into end-game content.

    I can only hope future MMOs learn something from this because I don't believe blizzard can ... I believe the genie is out of the bottle on many of these things and it's just too late.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Next to the murder capital of the world....
    Posts
    54
    Quote Originally Posted by HellRaver View Post
    So when is the point that the game and in this case the players tell the so called casuals in this clip, you cannot pass, you need to learn more about the class you play!

    I know players arent the friendly of ppl to do this thats why the GAME needs to teach the casuals to invest time in their class.
    And eventually that is what happens. However, you have to realize that for some - the game DOES teach them how to play, but for most - you have to look at outside sources. Perfect example - I am waaay more into the game than my husband is. But I sucked. Really sucked. Thankfully, a friend got her buddy - who played my same class - to fix me. But it went beyond that - the reason I was so bad was because even after reading a bunch of information about the class/spec - - I didn't UNDERSTAND it. So when he helped me - I asked questions, until it FINALLY clicked.

    By contrast, my husband figured out what was better while he leveled. By the time we level capped, he knew wth he was doing and was a good player. The only reason he looks at any outside sources now is b/c Blizz is continually tweaking the classes - and that's the best way for him to keep up.

    My point being - some people can just get it and others need a little more hand holding; which is a good thing, because without some hand holding, I would have quit years ago - and my husband would've too (because he only plays at my insistence any more). And easier "intro" raids is just another form of hand-holding - it's the venue for people to go in and realize - hey. I'm not doing as good as whoever. Wonder what they're doing differently and then ask. Or the chance for their guild to take them aside and say hey. You're not doing so good. I need you to fix this.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Next to the murder capital of the world....
    Posts
    54
    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    The problem is: the game does a piss-poor job of teaching the players how to play.
    Last time I checked, a large component of this game was its social aspect. I think (and I am going to get sooo much crap for this) that people should step down from their high-horse elitist I-am-awesome, you-stupid-noob, how-dare-you-not-figure-it-out-for-yourself attitude and try....I don't know HELPING each other out.

    As I said in a diff post - I didn't get it until someone took me aside and broke it down for me. Since then, I have taken it upon myself to figure it out...and I have 5 (almost 6) well-played toons to show for it. Additionally, I am (thankfully) in a very community oriented guild that will help if I have questions that I cannot figure out for myself.

    My point being, can we please try to put some of the social back into the game and maybe help each other out .... just a little?

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by Papapaint View Post
    Now, everything in the game has been streamlined for the benefit of endgame raiders/pvpers. Leveling is easier, classes are more streamlined and homogenized, travel has been all but removed from the game completely (try putting a 5 man dungeon run together and telling everyone to fly there!). I don't think these are necessarily bad things, but I too am coming from the perspective of an endgame raider. The game lacks depth and immersion, and we are trending towards a situation where our characters really aren't much more than sticks with numbers.
    I see your point, but I think the problem is more that casual players asked for a lot of these things. Leveling guides used to be popular and you would always hear people asking "where do i go to level at levelX?" in trade chat because the leveling process was so non-linear and travel-intensive. Casual players wanted their experience streamlined, and when they got it, complained that it was too streamlined and went by too fast, and when they were done with it, there was nothing left for them. You can't have it both ways, but that's basically what's going to have to happen for blizzard to fix this situation.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    187
    To continue the support of the ideas of progressing players, I'd like to tell the story of two of my guildies from the Wrath days. I was our paladin guru at the time and this guy, we'll call him Jay for fun, came into my casual raiding guild with a few others that migrated from another guild. This was around the time of ICC starting to get the 10% buff. Jay was terribad, he had all 70+ talent points in the ret tree, was gemming/enchanting random things on his gear and was always under the tank in dps in any heroics or stuff we did. So I start working him. Spec fixed, check. Regemmed and enchanted, check. Fix rotation and practice on target dummy together, check. Talk about cooldown usage, check. Discuss tactics for ICC bosses for ret, check. End result? He ends up in our first 10m downing of Lich King and doing 3rd or so in dps. Rags to riches for sure in a guild that didn't kill Lich King till 5 or so months before Cata came out. I sure wasn't the raider I am now either. He was lined up to be a core raider for Cata raids but had some personal issues get in the way which forced him to quit, but I have no doubt he'd have been there along the way the past 7 months of tier 11. All because someone gave him a shot to improve and get better.

    And now the bad news, as some have alluded to, there is also the casual that wants to raid but doesn't want to put the time into their toon to make it happen. Lets call this guy Bobby, a hunter who was running with us at the same time. Consistently at the bottom of dps charts with fantastic gear farmed from whatever pug raids he could get into. Guy had at least all 251 gear with some 264s. But always at the bottom. And he was insistent that he was doing everything right and there was nothing he could change. Combine that with consistently messing up the same fight mechanics and Bobby was not taken to progression content anymore. If we could carry him through a fight, he could go, but I don't think he ever got a Lich King kill with the guild back even then. Bobby wanted to "play the game his way" and no one could tell him differently. And it wasn't like it was the difference between him pulling 13k instead of pulling the 14k his gear was capable of, it was more like 7k vs 14k (not exact numbers cuz I honestly don't remember the dps numbers at the time, but you get the idea). So despite the casual nature of our guild, Bobby eventually left cuz if he wasn't allowed to play his way and come to do content, he wasn't happy. And we couldn't take him and actually accomplish anything significant. But I'm sure he eventually found a place where he was happy and he could do some stuff and find the right balance of difficulty for his skill.

    So, just two examples of the progression of players through the casual->hardcore system. They are not the only stories people will have of this type, but it just gives a few more examples of the feed of people that go from playing the game to playing the game seriously and everything in between.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Williamsburg, VA
    Posts
    719
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurrr View Post
    I see your point, but I think the problem is more that casual players asked for a lot of these things. Leveling guides used to be popular and you would always hear people asking "where do i go to level at levelX?" in trade chat because the leveling process was so non-linear and travel-intensive. Casual players wanted their experience streamlined, and when they got it, complained that it was too streamlined and went by too fast, and when they were done with it, there was nothing left for them. You can't have it both ways, but that's basically what's going to have to happen for blizzard to fix this situation.
    I disagree. I don't think "casual" players asked for these things.

    Casual players aren't players we hear from. They don't visit forums, or guides. They don't read dev watercooler, or even know what you would mean if you said a "blue" said something. In a way, you might think that they care less about the game than anyone.

    However, they make up a majority of WoW's playerbase, whether we like it or not. To them, this is purely a video game. They do not invest in it as a "hobby," they have comparatively low playtime, and they most certainly don't "ask" for changes to the game.

    WoW's community is a textbook example of a vocal minority. Perhaps close to 20ish percent of the WoW community bothers to ever post on the forums. They tend to be the players that look outward for game enjoyment, instead of identifying what they enjoy and sticking to that. Half of them will tell you their class is underpowered, that ________ spec is too easy, and that Horde/Alliance have a huge advantage in Arena/AB/AV/Tarren Mill ganking/Auctions/Mounts. I have my own theories on why they feel this way, but I'm quite sure that any player bothering to post on blizzard forums demanding changes is--by definition--NOT a casual player.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    2,043
    Quote Originally Posted by Papapaint View Post
    However, they make up a majority of WoW's playerbase, whether we like it or not. To them, this is purely a video game. They do not invest in it as a "hobby," they have comparatively low playtime, and they most certainly don't "ask" for changes to the game.
    Not true! A good in-game friend of mine, who will never raid or run dungeons at current level, has occasionally submitted tickets in game to the GMs asking for flying pigs because her gnome mage would look soooooooo cute on them. lol

    But ultimately, all kidding aside - Papa, I think you're 100% spot on here. Streamlining has made it more efficient, which helps out people who are interested in raiding, but has reduced the million things to do feel for someone who just logs on to kill felboars because they're cute and should be skinned. And gets excited about being EPIC at some point during when ICC is out because the only gear they gear is from questing and the AH really, and then only if the price is right :-)
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  19. #39
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,029
    Quote Originally Posted by kymmico View Post
    Last time I checked, a large component of this game was its social aspect. I think (and I am going to get sooo much crap for this) that people should step down from their high-horse elitist I-am-awesome, you-stupid-noob, how-dare-you-not-figure-it-out-for-yourself attitude and try....I don't know HELPING each other out.

    My point being, can we please try to put some of the social back into the game and maybe help each other out .... just a little?
    While this would be nice, the problem is people, in game, to whom advice is given often take it as a personal attack and those that give the advice are often condescending jerks. I play a DK, Warrior, Pally (tank/heal), Priest, Mage and Hunter, and I know my classes, but unless I'm asked I don't offer any advice. Not even to guildies. That said, I have no issuse asking for help. When I was learning my warrior I came here and everyone was very helpful - but in game, forget it. We just seem to live in an angrier world.
    Last edited by Theotherone; 06-15-2011 at 01:43 PM.

  20. #40
    Last time I checked, a large component of this game was its social aspect. I think (and I am going to get sooo much crap for this) that people should step down from their high-horse elitist I-am-awesome, you-stupid-noob, how-dare-you-not-figure-it-out-for-yourself attitude and try....I don't know HELPING each other out.
    You're on a website dedicated to sharing information and strategies and helping one another out. I think you may be just preaching to the choir here.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts