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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Why Hardcore Players Need Casuals

  1. #1

    The Weekly Marmot - Why Hardcore Players Need Casuals


  2. #2
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    By your definition, and I say this having only watched 2 minutes and 8 seconds, I am 13/13 and you just called me a casual.

    As for the rest, while I completely agree with pretty much everything you said, that sounded more like a thesis on "why games need casual content" as opposed to "why hardcore players need casuals" which in a way I guess are the same thing but I feel like there is a very subtle difference and you kinda went the way of the former.



  3. #3
    By your definition, and I say this having only watched 2 minutes and 8 seconds, I am 13/13 and you just called me a casual.
    I'm 13/13 and I freely call myself casual. =D

    I'm not as cool as those other hardcore-ers!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    By your definition, and I say this having only watched 2 minutes and 8 seconds, I am 13/13 and you just called me a casual.

    As for the rest, while I completely agree with pretty much everything you said, that sounded more like a thesis on "why games need casual content" as opposed to "why hardcore players need casuals" which in a way I guess are the same thing but I feel like there is a very subtle difference and you kinda went the way of the former.
    I don't think being progressed (especially with how long this content has been out at this point) has anything to do with if you're hardcore or not. You can be a casual in a good guild who raids 2 nights per week for 2-3 hours each night, and also be 13/13 (those guilds/players do exist right now). Being a good player and/or in a good guild != hardcore.

  5. #5
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    definitely hard as F*** right now to recruit, and I can't help but feel it's because of this huge drop off in players. I love me the casuals, they turn into better raiders with the right direction and drive.

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  6. #6
    TIL: People would rather worry about labeling themselves as "hardcore" or "casual" than actually pay attention to what I'm saying.

  7. #7
    People just discussin' stuff, sir. If you want us to talk about something more specific, give us a quiz or worksheet or madlibs next time. <3

  8. #8
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    "Now pay attention...there will be a quiz later..."

    New Marmot format inc.

  9. #9
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    Can I add in my definition too to make Lore cry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beyond the Legend
    Players’ raiding skill breaks down into a few distinct buckets. A very small percentage of players are just naturally good raiders. All of the flashing colors and sounds and things moving on the screen are like the Matrix to them. They “get it” and they do very well at processing where they need to be and what they need to be doing. Another small group of players are not quite savants but they are smart people who can rapidly figure out the content and complete it shortly after the “Rainman” groups do. Finally there is a massive group of gamers that like the idea of defeating massive dragons, long dead kings and terrible demons from the depths of the underworld, but they simply cannot react as fast, especially collectively, as those people who are naturally gifted at raiding.

    That lesser ability at raiding is something shared by more than eighty percent of all gamers. That number derives itself from a post that was made by a WoW game developer shortly before the launch of The Burning Crusade where he shared statistics on what percentage of people who attempted to raid were able to progress into each of the four raid zones. Eighty percent of people never made it past Blackwing Lair.
    "They say that the best blaze brightest when circumstances are at their worse."

  10. #10
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    TIL?

    That... was actually kinda scary how it described my journey in WoW (first MMO). From the guild stuck in 10m Naxx for freaking ever (and never did get KT down) and being one of the players who would gem and enchant, but with cheap gems and enchants and often in a wrong way. Then to a guild that struggled, but got LK down, and now in a guild that has a shot at top 5 on the server in Firelands.

    But I think that's also partly when I joined. ToC was only a couple months away by the time I started raiding, so Naxx had been on clear for a long time and Uldar was on clear for many as well. So there was 'easy' raiding content. There isn't that 'easy' content now in Cata. And before there is truely 'easy' (or maybe 'introductory is a better term) raiding content in, we'll probably see 4.2 on clear with crafted and BoEs from 4.2 easily available.

    Maybe that was the hum-dinger of 4.1 is that there were 3 raids released, but each of the 3 raids was more or less equivalent in skill - maybe a better model would have been to stagger the skill for normal modes a little more. Dunno and too late now.

    ***

    I think a lot of the problem with "casual" and "hardcore" definitions is that people view them as inherently binary. You are one or the other. You cannot be both. And that's a false dichotemy. As long as people continue to falsely view them as mutually exclusive, it's just going to be one big ugly discussion every time it comes up.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  11. #11
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    I quite agree with everything you said. People need to just take a step back and stop looking at it from their own point of view, but adopt more of a "global" view. What especially resonated with me was, boiled down, this: New & noob ---> Grouped in a dungeon ---> Stepping foot into a raid ---> Casual Raider ---> Hardcore Raider. This is exactly what happens to everyone who is new to the mmo market, regardless of if they are just joining now, or have come to wow from EQ. The EQ people just learnt this in EQ lol You can't simply join the game, level, not step foot in a dungeon, not check out a raid and suddenly become a hardcore raider.

    BC had this down really well, Kara was a very good introductory raid, it taught skills and even had a few "tricky" fights that involved things other than standing there and nuking. And then onwards and upwards through gruuls (more mechanics), mag (more mechanics and harder), T5 (harder) and T6 (harder still and you really need to know wtf your doing not just as a player but as a guild). This isnt another "wow BC was awesome" nor a "lets go back to not being able to effectively skip tiers". Simply Kara was a good introductory raid, Naxx was a good introductory raid, T11 was just a bit harder than most people expected. Especially off the back of what was close to a year of 30% player buff ICC.

  12. #12
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    My main take away from this is that Lore eats casuals and thinks they are tasty.

    Oh, and that learning curves with low barriers to entry are a good thing.

  13. #13
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    BC had this down really well, Kara was a very good introductory raid, it taught skills and even had a few "tricky" fights that involved things other than standing there and nuking.
    Karazhan was harder than the current T11 content when it was first launched, it had to be tuned down after a month or two.

    HKM and mag were out of the progression line difficulty wise, they were equivalent to T5 bosses (gruul was fine for T4 though).

  14. #14
    I'm still not sold on the idea that we have to blame the game mechanics for players faults. If players want to learn and excel, they will regardless of whether or not the first raid is Naxxramas 2.0 or Sunwell.

    While it "feels" right to have a super-easy raid right from the start, I just don't think it changes anything. People wiped like crazy in Naxxramas too, even though by all accounts it was so insanely easy that a raid full of monkeys in level 187 blues could clear it.

    At some point you have to stop making excuses for people and stop pointing fingers at Blizzard. We have to accept the fact that some players simply do not want to "be good" and other players are determined to do so. Some players will still complain that Stonecore is too hard even in Tier 13 while other players laughed it off in Tier 11. That's just how it is.

  15. #15
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    I agree with your observations

    Hard core players stick around to beat the end game content and work on building up the guild.

    Casual players are the mass majority of wow players who enjoy the questing, chatting and run instances and sometimes try a raid but not put the time into the game that hard core raiders do. Some simply do not have the time others do not enjoy it and some even make fun of the hard core thinking these guys need to get a life. There is room in this game for all types of players.

    I fall somewhere near the hardcore just shy of it. I read and study my toon for rotations, specs , best gear, etc. I raid once a week with my guild and I have my toon to 357 item level now but it is a slow pace. I am also a father of 6 and work full time so I simply only have so much time to invest in my game. I can not raid 4 times a week and I can not play till 2am with work in the morning but I try to be the best when I can play. It just means I get there more slowly but sooner or later I get there and see the content.

    My bro quit the game but he was a casual player and was very disappointed in Cata. He stayed a while...leveled a few of his 8 toons and went on to Rift. Something new and he has not seen much of the end game content in wow at all. Just not his thing...too much time needed and too much work that he doesn't like to do and thinks is a waste.

  16. #16
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    Hardcore and casual are relative terms and really shouldn't be used to define a class of players because there are too many variables that either directly or indirectly relate with the two terms. For 99.9% of the player base there will always be someone who is considered more hardcore or more casual.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nereel View Post
    Hardcore and casual are relative terms and really shouldn't be used to define a class of players because there are too many variables that either directly or indirectly relate with the two terms. For 99.9% of the player base there will always be someone who is considered more hardcore or more casual.
    Yes, the terms are used so often in the community considering they are so poorly defined. Lore is redefining the terms on a weekly basis because they are very loose terms.

    I think there is a better way of looking at it is this. There is a wide variety of players in terms of skill and time commitment and there has to be a larger variety of content to suit those needs.

    Progression wise at the start of cata, there was

    1. normal dungeons(333)
    2. heroic dungeons(346)(<--JP gear)
    3. normal raids(359)(<--VP gear)
    4. heroic raids(372)

    I'm almost remiss at adding normal dungeons because they can be easily skipped with crafted, rep or boe gear. Next in line were heroic dungeons which were too difficult for a large part of the player base and had a large effect on LFD wait times.

    ZA/ZG is a nice progression step for players who aren't raid ready but have gotten everything they need out of heroics. That being said they weren't avaible at launch but perhaps a couple of A 10-man intro raid of ZA/ZG level difficulty would also be a nice touch.

    All in all this would give us a structure for the next expansion which looks like

    1. normal dungeons (ilvl x)
    2. heroic dungeon, tier 1(x+13)(<--JP gear)
    3. heroic dungeon, tier 2(x+19)
    4. 10 man, intro raid(x+19)
    5. 10-25 normal raid(x+26)
    6. 10-25 heroic raid(x+39)

    The obvious downside to all this is that more dungeons across multiple ilvls require more work and tuning from blizzard. You might end up with a scenario where BoT became the entry level raid and the 8 bosses in BWD/Tot4w becomes the tiered raid content, leaving less content for serious/hardcore raiders.

    I'm struggling to write a conclusion to this so I'm just going to leave this here and slowly walk away now :P

  18. #18
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    Lore kindda mixed casuals with bads with just progression raiders with hardcore raiders ... I think casuals and hardcore are just relative terms.

    I have the Insane title, the Loremaster title, I have all reputations to Exalted except PvP ones, ( I'll have those by the end of the year) I have over 10k achievement points, I have over 300k gold ... I have 4 max level alts with maxed professions ... so in part I consider myself kindda hardcore even thou I didn't downed Sinestra ... and I consider those "crazy" people with 14k Achiev pts that "beat the game" being like the epitome of hardcore.

    Guess what Lore wanted to say is that there is a dependency like in the trophic levels and food chain between WoW players that the elitists shouldn't ignore.

  19. #19
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    I'm sorry but players dont come into a raid anymore because they dont have the achievement :P

    Anyway I'm sorry to say but if ur dps and gear suck you wont even make it into heroics, and I love that you brought that up since that's exactly why I so hate the T11 nerfs. You now hold these ppl by their hands and helping them run it but when they really like raiding they will be spit out because noone is telling them , hey learn ur class if you want to raid because it will give you trouble later on.

    So when is the point that the game and in this case the players tell the so called casuals in this clip, you cannot pass, you need to learn more about the class you play!

    I know players arent the friendly of ppl to do this thats why the GAME needs to teach the casuals to invest time in their class.

  20. #20
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    Lore, why is it that I pretty much completely agree with almost everything you say in weekly marmots/PSTs? It's almost scary.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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