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Thread: PST - Episode 33

  1. #41
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    I've read the thread thanks, I just think most people look at these problems from the point of view of a player inside the box, and not as a designer. Just because you are accustomed to game mechanics working in a particular way doesn't mean you can't make radical changes and end up with a game that works just fine. They could take the entire concept of hitting and missing out of the game, the question is whether they could add enough interesting stats and player tunables in other areas of the game to make it a deep and compelling experience.

    It varies a lot by class, but most DPS find hit and/or expertise fairly compelling secondary stats. They trade that against crit, haste and mastery. In almost all cases, they prefer their primary stat (e.g. str, agi) and they care not one iota about their stamina. Plate tanks* on the other hand care about stamina, armour, dodge, parry, mastery... with hit and expertise very much as a secondary concern. The problem here is that, outside trinkets and gems, we get very little influence over our stamina and armour, and our gear is frequently topped up with hit and expertise to make it varied. Would the game be any worse if tank itemisation never had hit or expertise at all, but instead had bonus stamina and armour? What if you could socket armour or even magic resistance gems? They dabbled with armour itemisation in WotLK and I never understood why it got dropped. Now that they've succeeded in making tanks care about avoidance and mastery, perhaps it would make sense to reintroduce it.

    Generally, players like to feel they've invested in preparing for raiding (or dungeons or whatever), tuned their characters to perform as best they can. I think this applies even more to tanks than DPS (not sure about healers) as different encounters will place different pressures on the tank (so some fights might like mastery or raw avoidance or pure stamina), whereas DPS tend to optimise for max raw output. If tanks are all about tuning their characters to survive best, why have a game system that relies on them also investing in stats they aren't interested in. On the other hand, you can make those stats more compelling by tacking on extra value to them (either in the form of more mitigation, or just by making them really effective - which is where I was coming from with the 'more value per point of rating')


    Misdirection and Tricks is as interesting topic when viewed through the lens of the designer. Why were they added? Not because tanks needed help getting agro, but rather because hunters and later rogues were seen to lack utility. "All I do is dps" they said, so Blizzard designed a way for them to become more of an asset to the raid group. "Ooops, it turns out the tanks can AFK or be replaced by pets" said Blizzard designers when they saw the results, so they added the threat fade. "I mysteriously lose agro about 30s into the fight" say tanks now. "I don't even have a hunter or rogue in my raid" says the 10 man raid leader. All this adds up to a need to iterate again on these threat transfer moves. The game is richer for them, that much I think most agree on. Having tanks totally relying on them is bad, that much is true too. If you make tank threat at the opening too reliable, you effectively nerf rogue+hunter raid utility (at least, making it more niche... as rogues like to use tricks as a raid dps boost and hunters retain the niche of picking up adds at range). If tank initial threat is going to be balanced on the assumption that you have either misdirection or tricks then yes, you probably need to spread it around to another class or two (I'd argue warlocks already have a truck load of utility and probably look at mages for this - give it some kind of 'illusion' theme and it'd fit with their kit, perhaps even work it into mirror images with a glyph).

    * - sorry Darksend, I just don't get feral itemisation :P Maybe I'll finally get around to starting that druid alt and get my head around you crazy fuzzy dudes.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    I must admit this was not part of my original reasoning and this line right here made me think of it. You cannot have one tank doing that much more damage than another especially on fights with tight enrage timers because it would force guilds to bring that tank to beat the enrage timer the first few times they defeat it.

    Also, since the patch that fixed the bug with mangle and maul doing to much damage earlier this expansion, I am pretty much forced to use berserk off the pull (this has gotten easier since it is off GCD). Before that fix I would have enough time to build up 3 lacerate stacks, pulverize them, and get a berserk with 9% extra crit and more AP from vengeance. After that fix, on almost every fight if I did not start the pull with 20 seconds of mangle I would lose agro every single time. Even still, I can pretty accurately guess how many of my mangles missed or were dodged/parried based on where DPS are on agro when berserk ends and I can tell you if they made mangle not able to miss or be dodged/parried, it would completely break tank DPS balance.

    Basically I am not saying my 2 options are the only possible limitations, but there MUST BE some limitations beyond "only one attack per tank class gets this treatment" and it must be along the lines of "the bonus hit and expertise only exist under the following conditions:".

    side note: BEST CHANGE EVER: Blizzards default threat meter now showing threat above 100%, seeing 150 or 200% threat on a boss, or even 90% 80% and you know a ranged is about to pull, is so nice



    I like this suggestion a lot more than making attacks always land and undodge/unparryable. But read my post above yours (not the one you quoted) and you can see that while plate may have some options (haven't looked yet) and especially in the rings/necks/cape/trinket department, agi just does not have that as an option to where that change would help much.
    Well that's something they just need to fix, honestly...Enhance shaman (who have the highest requirement for hit and expertise of any class in the game), rogues (who at least have a hit talent) and feral druids all use expertise. The argument that "hunters don't use it" is worthless. Give them a couple pieces a tier if you have to, but the MAJORITY of agility users DO need expertise...at least you don't share mail gear with hunters...can't even make that argument there (sure, it's 50/50 in terms of classes, but there's like 10 hunters for every enhance shaman).

  3. #43
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    Rather than add an attack that doesn't miss, why not just add threat to an attack which already can't.

    For example, make it so taunt generates a significant amount of threat if you already have aggro on the target which is taunted. Taunt also has the advantage that it has no effect at all against players so PvP balancing issues wouldn't matter. And since taunt doesn't deal damage it wouldn't mess with general rotational priorities since once aggro is secure the tank would prefer to generate threat with abilities which deal damage than abilities which do not.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    Well that's something they just need to fix, honestly...Enhance shaman (who have the highest requirement for hit and expertise of any class in the game), rogues (who at least have a hit talent) and feral druids all use expertise. The argument that "hunters don't use it" is worthless. Give them a couple pieces a tier if you have to, but the MAJORITY of agility users DO need expertise...at least you don't share mail gear with hunters...can't even make that argument there (sure, it's 50/50 in terms of classes, but there's like 10 hunters for every enhance shaman).
    Then how else would you explain those two links



  5. #45
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    Aug 2008
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    As a Shadowpriest, most of the gear you wear is actually spirit gear. Even the tier gear has spirit on it. Also, while gearing my Mage, its become clear there's a lot more Spirit gear out there than the hit gear for cloth casters. Shadowpriests everywhere need to do their part and soak up some of that spirit gear.

    Our guild handles it by simply differentiating between main spec and off spec. Is that piece for your main spec? WOuld you wear it as an immediate upgrade. Then you roll/spend DKP as such. We've yet to have much drama over Spirit gear really.

    Again, Spirit gear is just so much better in general than the hit gear for shadow in general, most mage and warlock gear usually doesn't even have the other secondary stats we want (haste) because it has to be loaded with hit. Blizz gave us twisted faith for a reason.

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